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Wolfram87
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08 Nov 2019, 8:25 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
As for "power fantasies," it just annoys me that movies/shows/books that celebrate blatant machismo are deemed just dandy, but woe betide any movie/show/book that puts "girl power" at the front and center. It's clearly a double-standard.


The Bayonetta-series of games was created by a woman as her vision of a Female Power Fantasy. It got absurd amounts of s**t from the same sort of people who are heaping praise on the new Star Wars films, because she wasn't Female Power Fantasying right.


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naturalplastic
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08 Nov 2019, 12:30 pm

It all depends.

On what you consider woke. And what you do with your wokeness.

Agree with what Obama is saying in the clip posted by Ezra.



Drake
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08 Nov 2019, 12:51 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Drake wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Fnord wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
... Male "power fantasies" don't get nearly the same amount of criticism that female ones do.
Male "power fantasies" don't get nearly enough criticism, in my opinion.

Personally, I like the Rose Tico character better than Rey. She showed that a woman doesn't have to look like a half-starved ballerina and do back-flips to prove her competence as a human being.


If I'm not mistaken, the actress who played her got chased off Twitter after being constantly harassed by neckbeards.

As for "power fantasies," it just annoys me that movies/shows/books that celebrate blatant machismo are deemed just dandy, but woe betide any movie/show/book that puts "girl power" at the front and center. It's clearly a double-standard.

But it's because it's "girl power". The male ones aren't "man power". Machismo is basically masculinity dialled up to 11, but it's not anti-woman. If it's just power, and it just happens to be a woman who has the power, no one cares, but they have to shine a spotlight on the fact it's a woman. Then have her go emasculating men and send a women good men bad message. If a man had the same spotlight on him and was fighting women, even if they were like skilled ninja assassins or something, and doing the equivalent, that would turn people off too.

Of course, you can have a man get emasculated by a woman in a film and it be well written and enhance the product, maybe to teach a lesson to that man, or as some genuine comedic moment, but all too often it's clear that that's not why it's been done. It's wokeness, virtue signalling, if you could smell it it would stink of it, it's not an effort to improve the product.

With Rey, I've only seen the first film, which was well received. I've seen the criticisms of her for that film, but I don't hold them against her. Off the top of my head, I remember the slapping away Finn's hand, but that could just as easily be having survived relying on herself she's not comfortable with help rather than not needing no man. You hear the stories about people coming out of prison not being able to let someone go behind them and such, she's living in a harsh place, it would make sense for her to reflexively reject his hand. The Falcon is a bit of a stretch, but no more than that. This is a universe where ships aren't far off being as common as cars to us. The Kylo fight, I feel there are enough mitigating factors to get away with it, his injuries and the fact he isn't trying to kill her.

I know from watching the first film why the backlash regarding Luke in the second was so strong, because the whole first film builds up the meeting with Luke, and cliffhangers the ending with it. The music choices and gravity they give it are telling you it's going to be great and epic.


The male ones are absolutely "man power" wherein women are reduced to objects that are either "gotten" by the man, or whose role is to support the male character.

You just don't notice it because men being considered stronger and more important than women is ingrained in our culture.

I do see that. And I don't see anything wrong with that. The lead is the star. Everyone else is supporting cast, male or female. You can have films where it's a team effort, but what's wrong with having a single hero protagonist? Men just fit this role more naturally so there's more of them in it. Is a female support really any less important? Could the lead have succeeded without her? Can't women enjoy a fantasy too of being swept off their feet by a hero?

Being female can still work for an action hero. In Kick Ass, Hit Girl is an 11 year old (I think) girl, and she's flying around slicing people up, gunning people down, and it works because she's choreographed to use her athleticism and small size to be elusive and kill quickly and efficiently while not taking hits. She's not standing there trading blows with grown men, the men are trying to shoot her or get their hands on her and she's not letting them.



She is damn good in that movie.



Drake
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08 Nov 2019, 5:51 pm

Youtube recommendation coming through big. Look at her go! :mrgreen:



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08 Nov 2019, 5:59 pm

Using one character as a 'reward' for another character's success essentially makes objectifies the character being used as the 'reward'. The fact that the character being rewarded is always male and the character being objectified in this is always female makes the entire game offensive and sexist in nature.

Victory should be its own reward.


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Drake
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08 Nov 2019, 6:17 pm

Fnord wrote:
Using one character as a 'reward' for another character's success essentially makes objectifies the character being used as the 'reward'. The fact that the character being rewarded is always male and the character being objectified in this is always female makes the entire game offensive and sexist in nature.

Victory should be its own reward.

I can't think of anything that fits that description outside of it being a villain. if the hero rescues the girl, I don't think he only did for sex.



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08 Nov 2019, 9:11 pm

Whenever I see: "How come people complain about x, but not y" it's invariably because people only hear the complaints about x and not the complaints about y. Now it's often true these complaints are not usually balanced, but plenty of people complain about James Bond as a character, just like plenty of people complain about Rey as a character.

It's like race-changing of characters. Plenty of people complain about whitewashing. Plenty of people also complain about white characters being portrayed by minority actors.

From my perspective, write good characters and good movies. I don't care that much about optics as long as the storylines and characters are compelling. You'll notice these complaints about girlpower aren't typically thrown at Katniss Everdeen,or Carrie Matheson, or Alicia Florrick, or Olivia Dunham etc. etc.


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XFilesGeek
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10 Nov 2019, 9:04 am

Drake wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Drake wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Fnord wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
... Male "power fantasies" don't get nearly the same amount of criticism that female ones do.
Male "power fantasies" don't get nearly enough criticism, in my opinion.

Personally, I like the Rose Tico character better than Rey. She showed that a woman doesn't have to look like a half-starved ballerina and do back-flips to prove her competence as a human being.


If I'm not mistaken, the actress who played her got chased off Twitter after being constantly harassed by neckbeards.

As for "power fantasies," it just annoys me that movies/shows/books that celebrate blatant machismo are deemed just dandy, but woe betide any movie/show/book that puts "girl power" at the front and center. It's clearly a double-standard.

But it's because it's "girl power". The male ones aren't "man power". Machismo is basically masculinity dialled up to 11, but it's not anti-woman. If it's just power, and it just happens to be a woman who has the power, no one cares, but they have to shine a spotlight on the fact it's a woman. Then have her go emasculating men and send a women good men bad message. If a man had the same spotlight on him and was fighting women, even if they were like skilled ninja assassins or something, and doing the equivalent, that would turn people off too.

Of course, you can have a man get emasculated by a woman in a film and it be well written and enhance the product, maybe to teach a lesson to that man, or as some genuine comedic moment, but all too often it's clear that that's not why it's been done. It's wokeness, virtue signalling, if you could smell it it would stink of it, it's not an effort to improve the product.

With Rey, I've only seen the first film, which was well received. I've seen the criticisms of her for that film, but I don't hold them against her. Off the top of my head, I remember the slapping away Finn's hand, but that could just as easily be having survived relying on herself she's not comfortable with help rather than not needing no man. You hear the stories about people coming out of prison not being able to let someone go behind them and such, she's living in a harsh place, it would make sense for her to reflexively reject his hand. The Falcon is a bit of a stretch, but no more than that. This is a universe where ships aren't far off being as common as cars to us. The Kylo fight, I feel there are enough mitigating factors to get away with it, his injuries and the fact he isn't trying to kill her.

I know from watching the first film why the backlash regarding Luke in the second was so strong, because the whole first film builds up the meeting with Luke, and cliffhangers the ending with it. The music choices and gravity they give it are telling you it's going to be great and epic.


The male ones are absolutely "man power" wherein women are reduced to objects that are either "gotten" by the man, or whose role is to support the male character.

You just don't notice it because men being considered stronger and more important than women is ingrained in our culture.

I do see that. And I don't see anything wrong with that. The lead is the star. Everyone else is supporting cast, male or female. You can have films where it's a team effort, but what's wrong with having a single hero protagonist? Men just fit this role more naturally so there's more of them in it. Is a female support really any less important? Could the lead have succeeded without her? Can't women enjoy a fantasy too of being swept off their feet by a hero?

Being female can still work for an action hero. In Kick Ass, Hit Girl is an 11 year old (I think) girl, and she's flying around slicing people up, gunning people down, and it works because she's choreographed to use her athleticism and small size to be elusive and kill quickly and efficiently while not taking hits. She's not standing there trading blows with grown men, the men are trying to shoot her or get their hands on her and she's not letting them.



She is damn good in that movie.


When movie after movie portrays men as the heroes, and women as just side objects to be "gotten," then it's absolutely political, and absolutely a problem.

You just don't see a problem with pushing women aside in favor of men because you've been culturally conditioned to think that that's okay.


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XFilesGeek
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10 Nov 2019, 9:06 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
As for "power fantasies," it just annoys me that movies/shows/books that celebrate blatant machismo are deemed just dandy, but woe betide any movie/show/book that puts "girl power" at the front and center. It's clearly a double-standard.


The Bayonetta-series of games was created by a woman as her vision of a Female Power Fantasy. It got absurd amounts of s**t from the same sort of people who are heaping praise on the new Star Wars films, because she wasn't Female Power Fantasying right.


I know. Crap like that drives me nuts.

One thing that annoys me from my fellow liberals is when they want you to be "woke," but only "woke" in a way they find acceptable.


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naturalplastic
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10 Nov 2019, 9:39 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
As for "power fantasies," it just annoys me that movies/shows/books that celebrate blatant machismo are deemed just dandy, but woe betide any movie/show/book that puts "girl power" at the front and center. It's clearly a double-standard.


The Bayonetta-series of games was created by a woman as her vision of a Female Power Fantasy. It got absurd amounts of s**t from the same sort of people who are heaping praise on the new Star Wars films, because she wasn't Female Power Fantasying right.


I know. Crap like that drives me nuts.

One thing that annoys me from my fellow liberals is when they want you to be "woke," but only "woke" in a way they find acceptable.


As opposed to... "getting 'woke' in a way that they don't find acceptable"?

By definition no one is going to accept something that don't find acceptable. That's a tautology.

So you will have to elaborate upon that post to escape sounding silly.



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10 Nov 2019, 10:27 am

naturalplastic wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
As for "power fantasies," it just annoys me that movies/shows/books that celebrate blatant machismo are deemed just dandy, but woe betide any movie/show/book that puts "girl power" at the front and center. It's clearly a double-standard.


The Bayonetta-series of games was created by a woman as her vision of a Female Power Fantasy. It got absurd amounts of s**t from the same sort of people who are heaping praise on the new Star Wars films, because she wasn't Female Power Fantasying right.


I know. Crap like that drives me nuts.

One thing that annoys me from my fellow liberals is when they want you to be "woke," but only "woke" in a way they find acceptable.


As opposed to... "getting 'woke' in a way that they don't find acceptable"?

By definition no one is going to accept something that don't find acceptable. That's a tautology.

So you will have to elaborate upon that post to escape sounding silly.


For example, as an asexual, I don't feel as if a person can love having sex and purposely seek it out, and still identify as "asexual."

It's not enough that I'm accepting of non-heteronormative identities, I have to be "inclusive" of how anyone wants to identify for any reason.


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