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Fnord
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29 Jan 2020, 10:25 am

magz wrote:
I think humans have evolved ethical drive in individuals for the gain of living in more cooperative societes...
Perhaps 'evolved' is not the operative word, since human children must be taught both ethical behavior and delayed gratification.

While it is fair to note that while wolves have evolved as animals that hunt cooperatively in packs, it is also fair to note that almost all of the great cats evolved as solitary hunters.


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magz
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29 Jan 2020, 10:28 am

Fnord wrote:
magz wrote:
I think humans have evolved ethical drive in individuals for the gain of living in more cooperative societes...
Perhaps 'evolved' is not the operative word, since human children must be taught both ethical behavior and delayed gratification.

While it is fair to note that while wolves have evolved as animals that hunt cooperatively in packs, it is also fair to note that almost all of the great cats evolved as solitary hunters.

And humans evolved as social apes.
BTW - not all the ethics needs to be taught. https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... of-babies/


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kraftiekortie
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29 Jan 2020, 10:38 am

People just do good deeds-----because they feel like doing good deeds.

Sometimes, people do good deeds because they genuinely feel like helping someone (or some animal/plant/whatever). They derive "selfish" satisfaction from it. I know I do. I feel better about myself when I do a good deed.

I feel that the "deed," most of the time, supersedes the "motive" for the deed.

I don't feel one should deny one's self the opportunity to perform good deeds just because there is a "selfish" motive behind it.



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 29 Jan 2020, 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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29 Jan 2020, 10:41 am

I remember watching a character analysis video where someone stated their opinion that all selfless acts are paradoxically motivated by selfish reasons. This is something I think about every once in a while. I find it to be an interesting viewpoint to think about.

For instance, I lent someone a pen recently. A rather small act of consideration. I didn't put much thought into it, the person was in need of a pen, so I gave them one. You could argue that my motivations were selfish because in that situation I was in a group project; that person progressing with their work also benefited me since it added to the completion of our work.

I have helped people before for the sole purpose of feeling good. At one point I was feeling down, and I offered advice to someone else regarding their problems because it felt good to help improve something. Working with them and seeing them gradually make progress was satisfying. I sometimes feel a similar satisfaction when I see a business get more customers after I redesigned their branding and helped make them better known.


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kraftiekortie
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29 Jan 2020, 10:49 am

It's better to help someone than to not help someone.



Fnord
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29 Jan 2020, 10:57 am

magz wrote:
... not all the ethics needs to be taught...
Perhaps...
Quote:
The earliest signs are the glimmerings of empathy and compassion—pain at the pain of others, which you can see pretty soon after birth. Once they’re capable of coordinated movement, babies will often try to soothe others who are suffering, by patting and stroking.
And what does a mother do when her new-born infant begins to cry? She will pick up the baby, hold it, hug it, pat it, stroke it otherwise handle it.  The baby soon learns to associate expressions of pain and discomfort with the need for being patted and stroked.

One psychologist's opinion is easily refuted by simple observation. Children who have been deprived of constant maternal care will often grow up lacking the mechanisms to express compassion and empathy -- they become bullies.


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Fnord
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29 Jan 2020, 11:00 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
It's better to help someone than to not help someone.
It depends ... I've opened my home to some people who would have otherwise been homeless. All but one took advantage of my helpfulness. The only one that didn't hasn't spoken to me in a long time. The rest have goon on to various degrees of poverty and deprivation. Sad.


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Fnord
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29 Jan 2020, 11:05 am

Lost_dragon wrote:
I remember watching a character analysis video where someone stated their opinion that all selfless acts are paradoxically motivated by selfish reasons...
This opinion is borne out through further observation and questioning "do-gooders".  The only person I've met so far who literally expressed indifference toward his "good deeds" was a man who suffered from clinical depression. He literally said that while he knew his actions were benefiting other people, he felt no sense of 'reward' even when the recipients of his good deeds thanked him profusely, and that he only looked forward to the paycheck he would receive at the end of the week.


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kraftiekortie
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29 Jan 2020, 11:10 am

Obviously, one has to be aware of who one is helping.......

I take it on a case-by-case basis. And I don't tolerate anyone who becomes hostile when all I'm doing is attempting to assist them.

I wouldn't just take in a homeless person, for example.

But I take issue with those who believe one shouldn't help someone because of some "selfish" motive or other.



magz
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29 Jan 2020, 11:12 am

Fnord wrote:
magz wrote:
... not all the ethics needs to be taught...
Perhaps...
Quote:
The earliest signs are the glimmerings of empathy and compassion—pain at the pain of others, which you can see pretty soon after birth. Once they’re capable of coordinated movement, babies will often try to soothe others who are suffering, by patting and stroking.
And what does a mother do when her new-born infant begins to cry? She will pick up the baby, hold it, hug it, pat it, stroke it otherwise handle it.  The baby soon learns to associate expressions of pain and discomfort with the need for being patted and stroked.

One psychologist's opinion is easily refuted by simple observation. Children who have been deprived of constant maternal care will often grow up lacking the mechanisms to express compassion and empathy -- they become bullies.

You don't seem a bully to me.


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Fnord
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29 Jan 2020, 11:15 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
... I wouldn't just take in a homeless person, for example. But I take issue with those who believe one shouldn't help someone because of some "selfish" motive or other.
So why wouldn't you take in a homeless person? Would it take away from your money and resources? Would it impose extra responsibility on you? Would you lose the ability to move around and speak freely in your own home?

Just as people do good things for selfish reasons, so too do they not do good things for selfish reasons.

Of course, for some people, it simply never occurs to them to do a good deed.


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Fnord
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29 Jan 2020, 11:18 am

magz wrote:
Fnord wrote:
... One psychologist's opinion is easily refuted by simple observation. Children who have been deprived of constant maternal care will often grow up lacking the mechanisms to express compassion and empathy -- they become bullies.
You don't seem a bully to me.
I was not deprived of maternal care; I was bullied by my father. I made the conscious choice to not be like him.


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kraftiekortie
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29 Jan 2020, 11:21 am

I wouldn't take in a homeless person for various reasons. Off the top of my head:

1. I don't like having strangers around in my home when I need my privacy.

2. The homeless person might invite some of his/her friends over, some of whom could be of a "criminal" disposition.
They would then know my address, and they might think of ways to take advantage of me.

3. The homeless person could introduce certain types of vermin into my home.

4. I also have to consider the safety of my wife.


Saying this......if I establish some sort of special rapport with a homeless person, all bets are off.



magz
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29 Jan 2020, 11:22 am

Fnord wrote:
magz wrote:
Fnord wrote:
... One psychologist's opinion is easily refuted by simple observation. Children who have been deprived of constant maternal care will often grow up lacking the mechanisms to express compassion and empathy -- they become bullies.
You don't seem a bully to me.
I was not deprived of maternal care; I was bullied by my father. I made the conscious choice to not be like him.

And what motivates you to make such a choice?


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kraftiekortie
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29 Jan 2020, 11:26 am

I wish I could help everybody and every thing.

But I have to acknowledge that I cannot.

I'm not an extremely altruistic person. I don't give change out to every homeless person in the street. I do feel for the plight of the homeless, though. I would feel even more for them if I knew how and why they became homeless.

But I would not let the fact that there is a "selfish motive" in helping someone---prevent me from helping someone. That's really my point.



Fnord
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29 Jan 2020, 11:29 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I wouldn't take in a homeless person for various reasons. Off the top of my head:

1. I don't like having strangers around in my home when I need my privacy.
Selfish reasoning. Is your precious 'privacy' so much more important than saving the life of another human being?
kraftiekortie wrote:
2. The homeless person might invite some of his/her friends over, some of whom could be of a "criminal" disposition. They would then know my address, and they might think of ways to take advantage of me.
Selfish reasoning. Why help only one homeless person when you could also help many?
kraftiekortie wrote:
3. The homeless person could introduce certain types of vermin into my home.
Selfish reasoning plus bigotry -- not all homeless people are infested with 'vermin'.
kraftiekortie wrote:
4. I also have to consider the safety of my wife.
Selfish reasoning.
If something happened to her, you would be deprived of her presence and favors.
kraftiekortie wrote:
Saying this......if I establish some sort of special rapport with a homeless person, all bets are off.
Selfish reasoning. You would derive the 'rapport' of 'friendship' from such an arrangement.
kraftiekortie wrote:
But I take issue with those who believe one shouldn't help someone because of some "selfish" motive or other.
Et tu, Kortie?


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