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kraftiekortie
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29 Jan 2020, 11:35 am

Don't worry: Fnord isn't Caesar...and I'm not Brutus.



Fnord
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29 Jan 2020, 12:04 pm

Oddly enough, other motivators for people to perform "good deeds" include, but are not limited to: Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath (e.g., Revenge), Envy, and Pride -- the classical "Seven Deadly Sins".

Just because a person's deeds may benefit others, one should never assume that the motivations behind those deeds are purely good as well.


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kraftiekortie
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29 Jan 2020, 12:07 pm

Like I said, It’s USUALLY better to perform altruistic acts for others than not to perform them.



magz
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29 Jan 2020, 12:13 pm

Fnord wrote:
Oddly enough, other motivators for people to perform "good deeds" include, but are not limited to: Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath (e.g., Revenge), Envy, and Pride -- the classical "Seven Deadly Sins".

Just because a person's deeds may benefit others, one should never assume that the motivations behind those deeds are purely good as well.

I don't like the concept of "purity" of intentions. In general, I shiver at "purity" concept and think of inbred dogs and aristocrats.
Life usually needs some mix and some diversity.
I much more like the concept of "healthy" intentions - which allows some extent of egoism, just not too far.


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kraftiekortie
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29 Jan 2020, 12:15 pm

I would never claim that my motives for helping someone is wholly “pure” in a religiously “saintly/angelic” sense.



Fnord
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29 Jan 2020, 12:16 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Like I said, It’s USUALLY better to perform altruistic acts for others than not to perform them.
Why? Unless a person is clinically depressed (or has similar issues) altruism doesn't even enter the picture. There is always some selfish reason why someone does or dose not do something for someone else's benefit.


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Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature,
nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


magz
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29 Jan 2020, 12:17 pm

I also know examples of unhealthy altruism, with codependence probably the best known one.


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Fnord
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29 Jan 2020, 12:18 pm

magz wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Oddly enough, other motivators for people to perform "good deeds" include, but are not limited to: Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath (e.g., Revenge), Envy, and Pride -- the classical "Seven Deadly Sins". Just because a person's deeds may benefit others, one should never assume that the motivations behind those deeds are purely good as well.
I don't like the concept of "purity" of intentions. In general, I shiver at "purity" concept and think of inbred dogs and aristocrats. Life usually needs some mix and some diversity. I much more like the concept of "healthy" intentions - which allows some extent of egoism, just not too far.
Thus, there is no such thing as 'pure' altruism. There are only varying degrees of 'healthy' and 'unhealthy' altruism.


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Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature,
nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


kraftiekortie
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29 Jan 2020, 12:19 pm

I never said there wasn’t.

But....let me repeat myself....it’s usually better to do the deed than to not do the deed.

75% altruism is better than no altruism at all.



kraftiekortie
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29 Jan 2020, 12:29 pm

I admire someone like Mahatma Gandhi more than I admire someone like Ayn Rand.



aghogday
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29 Jan 2020, 4:50 pm

NO; People do not always do Kind and
Nice Things for other Folks for some kind of Intrinsic And or External Reward.

The Intrinsic Rewards are Neurochemicals by name of Dopamine and Serotonin; most commonly named.
The Greatest Intrinsic Reward is Oxytocin; the Warm And Fuzzy Kitty Purring Feelings one will come to Feel
in Autotelic Ways through Bio-Feedback; and Self-Generate Like the Other two Neurochemicals Mentioned above
and of course that extends to Endorphins; and the Rest of the Feel Good Human Cocktail of Neurochemicals
And Neurohormones too; This Ability often comes through the experience of Meditation and Autotelic Flow;
either Still or Moving Meditation in all the ways that comes with additives like Music that Move Human
Emotions that are literally combos of the Neurochemicals and Neurohormones Mentioned above and
more of course; It's Very Difficult to Control and Subjugate and get them to Volunteer to Give up
their Freedoms through the Cooperation/Control of the Empathy that Oxytocin Brings in 'Group Think' this way.

That's the Good News.
The Bad News Once Again is some folks
do not experience any intrinsic rewards no matter what they do; more commonly termed as
Anhedonia; a lack of the Ability to Feel Any Pleasure at all except for Frigging Pain and at even
worse Just plain Numb where all of everything is 'Piece of Paper existence'; yeah that's the place
that some folks seek pain to self and others to feel anything at all; voila, 'the reason' Psychopaths
REAL GENETIC PSYCHOPATHS EXIST; all they feel is the pain of others; the Adrenaline; the Raw
Adrenaline is all the Pleasure in Life they feel; whether that comes from their pain or the pain of others now.

Let's get back to the Good News again. Some Folks Have a Moral Code; doesn't mean they get any intrinsic
or external reward, necessarily; they Just do it for the reason that they Know it is the 'right thing' to do; of course
that varies depending on Life Experience.

So, in other words, while past Rewards, surely relate to Moral Codes in terms of what is Harmful or Not Harmful
to what one's behavior Effects the Lives of others; those Moral Codes may continue to exist without any external
or intrinsic rewards at all. There is only a code; a written code within that is pure Reason as Pure as it gets
when one might feel something if they harm someone else; but they do what they always did before;
Just because it is the Code they still Live by now; moral or not for how that may be relatively viewed.

Human beings at core are not driven by rationality; they are driven by instinct of Emotions and Sense first;
as Science now shows.

So, in other words, if you want a Society or Self that does the Most Good for others as that relatively
comes like Free Will In Moral Codes of Self and Others; You Garden Humans for the Feel Good Neurochemicals
and Neurohormones that Motivate Altruistic Behavior the Most.

'Houston'; we have a serious Problem; particularly for Rocket Scientists
And Other Folks Who Remain In Mechanical Cognition, Losing their
Propensity for Social Empathic Endeavors of Life; yes, including
Altruistic Acts Now; as Use it or Lose it the Empathy Muscle is no different than Biceps, overall.

"Screen time" without the Human Face to Face Reciprocal Communication
touch; including Hugs, and Holding Hands and other Human Animal Mammal
Acts for Oxytocin Bonding Like that Naturally reduces the Propensity to experience
the Warm and Fuzzies of Life that Bind and Bond Humans together; Human Mammal
Social Animals Lose their ability to Feel the Oxytocin Experience this way that 'Normally'
Drives Human Altruism too. Basically, they lose their Motivation to Do What Humans Do best
to Survive and Thrive; they Lose the Natural Intrinsic Reinforcements that Cooperation, Normally Brings.

It's Like Small talk; its not an Intellectual Endeavor of Complexity to Increase Dopamine; or necessarily
A pecking Order activity to increase Serotonin; although it can and real be a Pecking Order Endeavor too.
What Small Talk does best for folks who are born and bred to enjoy the Human Oxytocin Experience is deliver
that Intrinsic Reward for Gluing Humans together now.

But here's another real 'Cooker'; one must first Define; relatively speaking of course; What a Good Person
is; for it is true People Will Bond Empathically with this Powerful Oxytocin Neurohormone over the Most Harmful things
That could Possibly Happen to others they view as different and not part of their 'Oxytocin Tribe'; Meh; all you have to
Do is Look at Politics today and about 25 Percent of the General Population that is both Church going and Republican
to See how that is working out now for the future 'good' of this Country now; sure, it would be great for some Folk's
'Code of Morals' if Gay Folks Lose their Civil Right to Get Married now; but Harmful as Hell for the folks who would
Lose that Lawful Right Now. Again, It's all Relative; it really is; Humans Though the Creation of Cultural Norms
of Morals Will Create Heaven and Hell too and say it's Good and Right too; Meanwhile, little Children
have nightmares of a 'Boogieman' they may wrestle with all made up as Culture of 'Do Right' for
their Rest of their Life and consider themselves a Good Person for suffering with it too. True;
for them at Least, Pain becomes a Pleasure in Life too; for some of them all they really feel too;
Yeah; It's Like Euthanasia; some folks surely 'purely' believe in "a Religion of Suffering for the 'Good' of Suffering"

In a lot of Ways 'Human Morals' and what
they Define a 'Good Person' and 'Good Actions'
is Are Seriously Flawed but again Reason Number
1; Humans are not Rational First; they Operate First
through Senses and Feelings; bond a Human With the
Powerful Oxytocin Neurohormone; and they will even
Follow a Person who taunts them Publicly that they will
Follow them if they shoot someone on 5th Avenue knowing
the whole time that they are not rational; and their Religion really means nothing to them;
as Politics is their Real God; the Pecking Order of it all; Love is not their God; as True at least
far from it; in terms of 16,000 Plus Lies and Just total non-sense that makes no rationality at all.

It's Sad to Garden Humans that way.

Garden Humans for the Oxytocin of Love;
But Garden with the ability to use Reason to
make Some Sense and Feel out of Life that is Fair for all too.

Love Without Harm;
Read that again;
Doing it is a whole
Lot Harder than Just Reading it; but it is
a Practice that is Beneficial to all who are
concerned most of the Hours at least in a day of a life as whole.


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BenderRodriguez
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29 Jan 2020, 4:58 pm

The debate here illustrates why I attach a lot more value to people's actions than their intentions.


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kraftiekortie
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29 Jan 2020, 5:51 pm

Actions do speak louder than words.



Bradleigh
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29 Jan 2020, 9:59 pm

If the action is more important. What if you had a racist who tried to discriminate against a person of a different race, but somehow actually helped their situation. And you had someone who intended to help a person of a different race, but their actions led to something bad happening instead. Which if either of these cases is the person good or better than the other?

Do we look up to a problematic POS as a good person because against their intentions it caused good, or do we take motives in mind? I generally think in a scheme of things you need to take into consideration attempts to be informed, and probably some empathy. With the right push almost anyone can be convinced to do something messed up.


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29 Jan 2020, 11:58 pm

Probably the best reason IMHO if you can swing it this way - self-consistency.

You have certain values, certain things you want to see in the world, and doing the things that you want to see done because you want to see them done (and it annoys you to seem them not done) is you straightening up your own chosen corner of the world. It's a bit like making your bed because it looks sloppy if you don't and seeing that on repeat leaves you feeling off about yourself. Similarly emptying the trash or making coffee at work, *so long as* it's not like you're then the only person doing it - that is something you have to watch out for and, if you sense that happening, then you have to start getting choosy about when because you're getting mired in a game.

That said you won't realistically always be in a good position to do something, there are certain things that (especially on the spectrum) you're better off not doing than doing, so you do what you know you can do and do well.

As far as external reward is concerned - I think I'm probably too used to seeing life as a pissing match. There's a narrow threshold past which other guys think they're seeing a pushover, and it's probably even worse if you think you'll impress the opposite sex with politeness or 'being good' (unless you're into orbiting and if so best of luck). When that's the case you do a 'good thing' because it feels even crappier to not live and walk in your own standards than it does to have then somehow needing to display to other people that you did it only because you wanted to (at which point they're less likely to take it the wrong way).


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30 Jan 2020, 12:22 am

i try to do good because of conscience, and also because i hate hypocrisy esp. in myself, which ties in with conscience, that still small [but nagging] voice i hear in the quiet of the dark night that asks me as a child would ask its parent, "why the double standard?" also i want to to go a higher place in heaven than i came from, so i must do better.