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Do you follow the Cult of the Virgin Mary?
Absolutely! 7%  7%  [ 2 ]
I think it has some merit. 11%  11%  [ 3 ]
I don't care / I don't know. 19%  19%  [ 5 ]
I have serious doubts. 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Absolutely Not! 59%  59%  [ 16 ]
Total votes : 27

blooiejagwa
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03 Mar 2020, 12:23 am

Huh..

but I wasn't saying anything out of line..
in fact I was affirming her own beliefs just saying the specific verses that we have that are the same stories and messages exactly. i also mentioned a prayer she might like.


A prayer is a prayer. You're not praying to anyone but God so who cares who teaches it to you...if it is good...can just use it.


It doesn't mean u buy into the religion just that u took the good that u saw and left the rest that u (the mormon ladies) don't agree with.

I thought that is reinforcing her message not detracting from it


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B19
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03 Mar 2020, 12:35 am

auntblabby wrote:
isn't PP&R the more proper place for proselytizing? and the last time the LDS [for some reason they hate being called "mormon" now :scratch: ] knocked on my door, i hid behind a couch. ;) [i was little]



Perhaps we understand the meaning of prosetylising differently. The common meaning is attempts by members of a religious organisation to try and recruit others to their beliefs - just as the doorknockers do. They try to impose their religious beliefs on others from an assumed position of knowing better than the "ignorant" who don't share their beliefs. Not just the LDS knockers are guilty of this.

Religious discussion is very very different, and some of the books by theologian authors Steven Runciman on religious history are fascinating, to read and to discuss. I would welcome such discussions here, but can't recall any.

Runciman is a very clear and thoughtful writer for people interested in Christian history:https://www.theguardian.com/news/2000/nov/03/guardianobituaries.books

If members of the Church of Scientology come here and try to recruit members to their religion (proseltyising as an example) - either they will get the fast train out of here or I will. Ditto other religions that try to do the same.

Discuss ideas in comparative religions, yes. No problem with that. Push any one barrow of belief here in an obsessive way, not so good. Sometimes its a fine line and cross posting can also become an issue if someone wants to post on only one topic of choice.



blooiejagwa
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03 Mar 2020, 12:39 am

I didn't see that tone here... I might be bad at theory of mind but I think I'm more paranoid than most people...so I wd have noticed.


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B19
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03 Mar 2020, 12:54 am

None of us know which members have been abused in religious organisations, though there will be some here. And some will have very longstanding scars from abuse in Catholic settings, unfortunately. Prosetylising has the added danger of severely triggering them. I for one do not want them exposed to those risks. Occasionally prosetylisers have posted in The Haven, urging an OP to take up the same beliefs as themselves, not meaning to cause offence though they have done so in the past. We are a support forum, but not a religious support forum, for obvious reasons. That's not what WP is about.



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03 Mar 2020, 12:56 am

Can you directly quote what you mean from this thread keeping in mind context? What ive seen on this thread is discussion...actual discussion...


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03 Mar 2020, 1:00 am

I've made the points clearly enough I think about why proselytising is not a good idea here, and was responding particularly to Aunt Blabby's idea of it being acceptable here.



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03 Mar 2020, 1:05 am

auntblabby wrote:
isn't PP&R the more proper place for proselytizing? and the last time the LDS [for some reason they hate being called "mormon" now :scratch: ] knocked on my door, i hid behind a couch. ;) [i was little]


They NEVER called themselves "the Mormons". They ALWAYS called themselves "the Church of Later Day Saints".

Nothing new about that.

The reason for the name being that in their religion every member is considered a "saint". And the church was founded in the recent19th century (hence "the later day" part).

You don't hafta do miracles, and don't hafta to be martyred, and don't hafta wait until centuries after your death to be canonized. You just attend the church...and youre a saint while your still breathing! :D

Outsiders called them "the Mormons" because they read the "Book of Mormon" which is essentially a third testament of the Bible penned by Joseph Smith (or...he miraculously found it carved into stone tablets in the woods, or something).



Last edited by naturalplastic on 03 Mar 2020, 1:23 am, edited 3 times in total.

blooiejagwa
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03 Mar 2020, 1:08 am

B19 wrote:
I've made the points clearly enough I think about why proselytising is not a good idea here, and was responding particularly to Aunt Blabby's idea of it being acceptable here.


My question isn't why or why not.

It never was my stance that it isn't potentially harmful or aggravating.

My question was only where is it here specifically. As I don't see it. I need an example if I'm to know what to avoid.


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03 Mar 2020, 1:15 am

Here's an example for you to ponder then, from another thread. Calling another member "a blasphemer" because they don't share a religious view is not what WP is about.

Quoted post from another thread in PPR:

"You're the blasphemer, not I.

Blessed be the Great Mother of God, Mary Most Holy!"



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03 Mar 2020, 2:08 am

blooiejagwa wrote:
Huh.. but I wasn't saying anything out of line.. in fact I was affirming her own beliefs just saying the specific verses that we have that are the same stories and messages exactly. i also mentioned a prayer she might like. A prayer is a prayer. You're not praying to anyone but God so who cares who teaches it to you...if it is good...can just use it. It doesn't mean u buy into the religion just that u took the good that u saw and left the rest that u (the mormon ladies) don't agree with. I thought that is reinforcing her message not detracting from it

you did no thing wrong. the LDS lady couldn't handle anything at all that was even remotely outside her experience, is all.



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03 Mar 2020, 2:54 am

blooiejagwa wrote:
I don't hate Shias and my sister is married to one. As usual the tantalizing drama driven stuff is more well known. The Shia Sunni thing is supplemented and fanned in certain areas for political gain esp now with arms dealings including world powers that on the one hand intentionally start conflict and arm groups and on the other claim to want to quell them. Its all a mess and has been for ages. Eg Iran used to not br majority Shia till centuries back they had to convert or subdued by force. History is full of such things and it can be shown for Christianity too eg Belgium Congo.. Etc

Muslims in majority muslim countries see Christians the same way from afar. Even pity the women the way ppl outside of, do for Saudi women. We had free forum discussions in social studies classes that wd shock feminists in the west.

As ahogday said. A great need or even duty to distance oneself temporarily from ppl n cultural noise to find yourself.

Better to be an observer and select your own way. Participate only as you see fit.


We have something as Mary did isolation prayer ..etc called itikaaf. I have yet to commit myself to it and probably never can..but some ppl I know have.

Aspergers is actually well suited to such a goal. :heart: :mrgreen:

I find your post very informative and interesting. I also heard that Muslim women pity Western women who "have to work in the world and divorce on petty things". You know this graphic, right?
Image
The funny thing is, I don't identify with either of the ladies.

I have experienced something apparently similar to itikaaf, in Roman Catholic setting, called "spiritual exercises". You spend several days in silence, praying, meditating, reading only sacred texts, not talking to people, not using any media. I did it twice. First time, I was 18. It was something... it was definitely something. While the whole practice is directed at meeting God, you also have no where to hide from yourself. Do you realize how we hide from ourselves all the time?
I went second time when I was 25 and the experience was completely different. Kind of forced, unnatural, pointless and empty. Like I was playing some externally-defined role I don't fit. Well, that's my general experience with religion in adulthood.


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magz
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03 Mar 2020, 2:59 am

auntblabby wrote:
blooiejagwa wrote:
Huh.. but I wasn't saying anything out of line.. in fact I was affirming her own beliefs just saying the specific verses that we have that are the same stories and messages exactly. i also mentioned a prayer she might like. A prayer is a prayer. You're not praying to anyone but God so who cares who teaches it to you...if it is good...can just use it. It doesn't mean u buy into the religion just that u took the good that u saw and left the rest that u (the mormon ladies) don't agree with. I thought that is reinforcing her message not detracting from it

you did no thing wrong. the LDS lady couldn't handle anything at all that was even remotely outside her experience, is all.

That reminds me how my father handles JWs - he always does his best to convince them to convert to Catholicism.

Yes, I think you did absolutely nothing wrong, just things went way too far away from their script.


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03 Mar 2020, 5:13 am

B19 wrote:
Here's an example for you to ponder then, from another thread. Calling another member "a blasphemer" because they don't share a religious view is not what WP is about.

Quoted post from another thread in PPR:

"You're the blasphemer, not I.

Blessed be the Great Mother of God, Mary Most Holy!"


He said that in response to someone else calling HIM a blasphemer.

This very thread was created by a Protestant to bash Catholicism. So is this thread itself an example of "proselytizing"?



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03 Mar 2020, 7:23 am

Excessive Admiration For ‘Memes’ are surely not a New Phenomenon. Cult is generally used as A Pejorative; but as I pointed out earlier in this thread excessive admiration for the storybook character Jesus written by innumerable Ghost Authors and Scribes as Biblical Science shows is at essence no different.

The Gentleman who has great admiration for the Meme of the Virgin Mary hasn’t been forcing anyone to submit to his Beliefs; he has Been a Real Gentleman whose beliefs are attacked by this Op.

He only defended himself which he should be allowed to self-advocate as i Damn sure will too in a tactful enough way For personal beliefs/expression when personally attacked.

It’s worth noting that A ‘Cult’ of Jesus or Muhammad would be a Pejorative attack of those excessive admirations too.

Technically widespread And yes excessive admiration for the Virgin Mary is not a ‘Cult’ because it is A Global commonly held belief.

Therefore this thread is an attack on a specific widely-held Belief System (Religion).

I doubt ‘Cult of Muhammad’ would be allowed because it would be seen as Xenophobic; Similar thing is happening here.

The Gentleman’s religious Beliefs are being Personally attacked in a Pejorative way with this thread.

There is a bit of Hypocrisy here.

Personally, I’m not much one for idol worship; I’m into doing; but never the less others see life differently.

From a Support Perspective, It’s important that people have a place to express what they Believe In; Particularly folks on the Spectrum as long as it doesn’t break the rules.

It’s Not uncommon for folks on the Spectrum to make religion a Special interest; no need to disrespect beliefs with pejorative attacks; where no one can actually force folks to convert...


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magz
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03 Mar 2020, 8:59 am

I don't think clashes of conflicting beliefs would be ever completely avoidable in PPR.
I think this thread is not so bad, apart from a boring exchange of centuries-old arguments, there is quite a lot to learn here.


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03 Mar 2020, 9:10 am

magz wrote:
I don't think clashes of conflicting beliefs would be ever completely avoidable in PPR.
I think that's why Alex set it up in the first place.
magz wrote:
I think this thread is not so bad, apart from a boring exchange of centuries-old arguments, there is quite a lot to learn here.
There will be much more, as soon as I finish my essay on "What the Bible Says About Mary, the Mother of Jesus". There is a lot of mythology surrounding this ordinary peasant girl, not much biblical history at all, and even less truthful secular history. It's a fascinating topic from an historical perspective.



Last edited by Fnord on 03 Mar 2020, 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.