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funeralxempire
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03 May 2020, 3:32 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
It's a collective term for all the toxic, self-defeating and maladaptive behaviours and traits that people (primarily but not exclusively those who identify as men) are sometimes prone to, more specifically when those behaviours are motivated by needing or wanting to demonstrate masculinity.


This.

And before anyone asks, yes, there is such a thing as "toxic femininity."


Would that be a combination of accepting and encouraging and seeking partners who show the above, along with basically constantly neglecting one's own interests for their partner's to the point of merging, or do you have another idea in mind? Maybe throw in the crab bucket mentality women sometimes show towards each other in some contexts.

I'm not really sure I can conceive of the same sort concise definition for toxic femininity, but then again even though my social circles often include a lot of women compared to some men, and some aspie men, a higher than average portion tend to be tomboyish, butch, 'mixed' or just atypical, so I don't think I've been exposed to it.

To be fair, as an occasionally toxic male I'm more familiar with how meathead/needledick attitudes and mindsets I've either internalized or had imposed upon me were easier to recognize, especially when I noticed how they had a tendency to lead to moments rather analogous to what Huey describes here:



Find men who feel disempowered and insecure about their masculinity and you'll see these moments more often than the average population. Notice in example #2 the subject is also middle class, this is important. :wink:


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IsabellaLinton
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03 May 2020, 4:00 pm

In my opinion, toxic femininity would entail:

- teaching girls they are inherently better than boys
- teaching girls they are inherently less than boys
- teaching intolerance, racism, homophobia, transphobia, elitism, or classism
- teaching them that their beauty is important, or a tool to manipulate others
- teaching them to stay at home and be housewives
- teaching them NOT TO stay at home and be housewives, even if they want to
- expecting that they will have a maternal instinct and want children
- expecting they will "automatically" be good mothers
- reinforcing that they should be 'feminine' (quiet, polite, wearing dresses)
- reinforcing that that other girls who like dresses are outdated / not cool
- reinforcing stereotypes about food, eating, and body image
- enforcing the expectation that marriage is heterosexual and forever
- teaching them that boys have to pay for dates, marriages, homes etc.
- teaching them that only men are predators
- teaching them any sense of entitlement based on their gender (beyond equality)



Bradleigh
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03 May 2020, 7:04 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
In my opinion, toxic femininity would entail:

- teaching girls they are inherently better than boys
- teaching girls they are inherently less than boys
- teaching intolerance, racism, homophobia, transphobia, elitism, or classism
- teaching them that their beauty is important, or a tool to manipulate others
- teaching them to stay at home and be housewives
- teaching them NOT TO stay at home and be housewives, even if they want to
- expecting that they will have a maternal instinct and want children
- expecting they will "automatically" be good mothers
- reinforcing that they should be 'feminine' (quiet, polite, wearing dresses)
- reinforcing that that other girls who like dresses are outdated / not cool
- reinforcing stereotypes about food, eating, and body image
- enforcing the expectation that marriage is heterosexual and forever
- teaching them that boys have to pay for dates, marriages, homes etc.
- teaching them that only men are predators
- teaching them any sense of entitlement based on their gender (beyond equality)


It kind of feels like a couple of your points are a bit of covering the bases, which has me wondering about maybe just toxic in particular, or perhaps some kind of difference between traditional femininity and some sort of new age kind. The dress thing reminds meme, which had some women/girls dunk on those they saw as "basic" or something, which saw some blowback against these girls trying attacking people in their own gender as shallow while being shallow themselves, to just hating the hate and saying they are all valid.

Image

I see that as a very counter toxic femininity, and although not the same you do probably have some similar examples with masculinity also. The immediate example to make a parallel would be the "not like other guys" thing which is usually just the "nice guys" kind of men/boys, which from what I am aware are a very much known problem to women where guys think that by being nice should be mean they get something in return. Something attached heavily to the incel community. I have seen some people starting to try and look at the subject in seeing that such boys are given no outlet, and something needed like a way to feel confident without hurting or making others feel uncomfortable.

Image


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Greatshield17
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04 May 2020, 3:39 pm

I have question, in regards to masculine traits, would displaying these be considered toxically masculine if they were preformed for a different reason? Like for example, someone brought up patriotism is an example of toxic masculinity, I'm pretty sure my patriotism of far from toxic, but I don't seek to be Canadian patriot because I want to be manly and chow-down on poutine; rather, I pray to Our Lady of the Cape and look into joining a Canadian Monarchist society because the Catholic Church teaches that it's a virtuous thing to love and value your country.

Would different motivations determine whether something is toxically masculine or something else?


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IsabellaLinton
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04 May 2020, 3:41 pm

Greatshield17 wrote:
I have question, in regards to masculine traits, would displaying these be considered toxically masculine if they were preformed for a different reason? Like for example, someone brought up patriotism is an example of toxic masculinity, I'm pretty sure my patriotism of far from toxic, but I don't seek to be Canadian patriot because I want to be manly and chow-down on poutine; rather, I pray to Our Lady of the Cape and look into joining a Canadian Monarchist society because the Catholic Church teaches that it's a virtuous thing to love and value your country.

Would different motivations determine whether something is toxically masculine or something else?


Patriotism is toxic? I didn't see that comment, but I don't understand it either. I suppose if patriotism is enforced in the form of racism or intolerance, but loving one's place in the world isn't toxic in my opinion.



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04 May 2020, 4:22 pm

Greatshield17 wrote:
I have question, in regards to masculine traits, would displaying these be considered toxically masculine if they were preformed for a different reason? Like for example, someone brought up patriotism is an example of toxic masculinity, I'm pretty sure my patriotism of far from toxic, but I don't seek to be Canadian patriot because I want to be manly and chow-down on poutine; rather, I pray to Our Lady of the Cape and look into joining a Canadian Monarchist society because the Catholic Church teaches that it's a virtuous thing to love and value your country.

Would different motivations determine whether something is toxically masculine or something else?


I didn’t see patriotism mentioned: I did however see a couple of traits listed which are components of nationalism.
I checked a few dictionaries online: the definition they gave for patriotism was loving ones country, having a strong sense of community with others that do, and whilst respecting that other people love their own countries as you do yours. (Not toxic)
Nationalism however would be holding your country to be the paragon of countries, incapable of wrong and always justified regardless of conduct. (Yeah, pretty toxic, especially when combined with racism & misogyny... which is normative for this way of relating to ones country)

Incidentally the normative Fascist notion of country is that it was great and perfect and a paragon at some point in the historical past, but has been ruined by [insert relevant hated group(s)], and needs to return to that glorious past of purity and virtue in order to fulfil its heroic destiny, and that this is the purpose of existence itself. (as toxic as it gets)

[Edited to add parentheses]



Last edited by Karamazov on 04 May 2020, 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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04 May 2020, 4:34 pm

Well, to give my two cents, toxic femininity is:

1. Teaching girls that their two most important traits are their beauty and their ability to nurture.

2. That all girls should want to become mothers, and, when they do become mothers, that it should be the most important part of their identity.

3. Not teaching girls to be assertive and set strong boundaries.

4. That women should always put the needs and wants of others over their own self interest.

5. Teaching girls that women are ultimately responsible for the behavior of men.

6. That women shouldn't poop, fart, be hairy, or do anything that marks us as actual human beings.

7. That women need to be passive and wait for things to happen to us rather than work towards our own goals.

8. Teaching girls that they need to take care of men and not hold men accountable for their own circumstances. That girls need to "stand by their man" and strive to "fix" a$$holes.

That's what I got for now.


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IsabellaLinton
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04 May 2020, 4:36 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Well, to give my two cents, toxic femininity is:

1. Teaching girls that their two most important traits are their beauty and their ability to nurture.

2. That all girls should want to become mothers, and, when they do become mothers, that it should be the most important part of their identity.

3. Not teaching girls to be assertive and set strong boundaries.

4. That women should always put the needs and wants of others over their own self interest.

5. Teaching girls that women are ultimately responsible for the behavior of men.

6. That women shouldn't poop, fart, be hairy, or do anything that marks us as actual human beings.

7. That women need to be passive and wait for things to happen to us rather than work towards our own goals.

8. Teaching girls that they need to take care of men and not hold men accountable for their own circumstances. That girls need to "stand by their man" and strive to "fix" a$$holes.

That's what I got for now.


+ 1 :heart:



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04 May 2020, 5:12 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
... Would different motivations determine whether something is toxically masculine or something else?
Patriotism is toxic? I didn't see that comment, but I don't understand it either. I suppose if patriotism is enforced in the form of racism or intolerance, but loving one's place in the world isn't toxic in my opinion.
Traditional Patriarchy

Patriarchy (Rule by Fathers) is a social system in which the male is the primary authority figure central to social organization and the central roles of political leadership, moral authority, and control of property, and where fathers hold authority over women and children.  It implies the institutions of male rule and privilege, and entails female subordination.  Many patriarchal societies are also patrilineal, meaning that property and title are inherited by the male lineage.

"Patriotic" and "Patriotism" in this context mean to be in full support of the Patriarchy.

Historically, patriarchy has manifested itself in the social, legal, political, and economic organization of a range of different cultures.

1) Primary structures that define patriarchy:

• Culture: Women are represented in media and popular culture as weaker, less intelligent than men, and prone to 'hysteria'.

• Government: Women have no formal power or representation.

• Household: Women do the housework, give birth, and raise the children.

• Sexuality: Women's sexuality is treated negatively, if at all.

• Status: Since women are the "Weaker Vessel" when compared to men, they are denied equal status with men.

• Violence: Women are at the mercy of their husbands and male relatives.

• Wages: Women are paid less than men performing the same tasks.

2) Secondary structures that are expressed or implied, and that are enforced by the Patriarchy:

• A married women of child-bearing age shall remain at home to serve her husband and bear his children.

• A masculine God, who ordained distinct gender roles for men and women as part of the His created order.

• Atheists, foreigners, heretics, and homosexuals shall be non-citizens and have no civil rights -- they can not vote, own property, or enter into legal contracts.  They also have no right to free speech, free press, free exercise of their beliefs, or the freedom to bear arms.

• Both sons and daughters are under the command of their fathers as long as they are under his roof or otherwise the recipients of his provision and protection.

• Children must be taught only from the Holy Book (i.e., Bible, Quran, et cetera), and from the earliest age.

• Common people, slaves, women and children must be dealt with harshly, to see that they do their work and that under the threat of the rod they comply with the observances of piety.

• Every institution that does not unceasingly pursue the study the Holy Book (i.e., Bible, Quran, et cetera), becomes corrupt.

• Female children shall be educated only as much as necessary to be teachers, nurses, secretaries, wives, and mothers.

• Government shall be of, by, and for wealthy, heterosexual males who are conservative religious leaders (i.e., Christians, Muslims, et cetera), scientifically ignorant, and descended from northern European ancestors.

• Ill health is not natural; it is caused by the Devil's influence -- people who are ill, diabled or dformed are to be avoided or shunned in public, or shut away.

• Illegitimate females are fit to serve only in the most menial of professions, but may redeem themselves through bearing their husband's or male master's children.

• Illegitimate males are fit to serve only in the most menial of professions, but may redeem themselves through honorable military service (usually ending in the male's death in combat).

• Inequality is essential for continuance of civilized society; there must be rulers, nobles, free men, commoners, and slaves ... followed by women and children.

• Insanity shall be treated as demonic influence, and the insane as depraved sinners.

• Male children shall be educated to be laborers, soldiers, managers, engineers, physicians, professors, and leaders.

• Male leadership in the church: Only men are permitted to hold the ruling offices in the church - no female pastors or elders.

• Male leadership in the government: Only men are permitted to hold appointed and elected offices in civil government.

• Male leadership in the home: A husband and father is the head of his household.

• Married couples shall consist of one man and one woman only.

• Only an adult male can own property - everything 'owned' by his wife and children belongs to him, including their bodies and their minds.

• Only married couples -– one man and one woman -- can produce legitimate children.

• Philosophy and Science, if they are to be taught at all, must be taught in complete agreement with the Bible.

• "Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has: it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but -- more frequently than not -- struggles against the Divine Word.  Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and know nothing but the word of God." -- Martin Luther

• Slavery, the subordination of women, and conquest by genocide shall be taught as Patriotic values.

• The Ecclesiastical branch of government shall have priority over the Legislative, Executive, and Judicial branches.

• The government shall consist of four branches: Legislative, Executive, Judicial, and Ecclesiastical (the Church).

• "The proper sphere of existence for a wife is the household -- she should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children. Even though they grow weary and wear themselves out with child-bearing, it does not matter; let them go on bearing children till they die; that is what they are there for." -- Martin Luther

• Unmarried women of child-bearing age shall not work outside the home, except as teachers, nurses, and secretaries.



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04 May 2020, 5:33 pm

Patriotism to me, means that you love your country.

I see the etymology, but obviously I'm not into patriarchies. Or matriarchies. Or any archies.



Greatshield17
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04 May 2020, 5:43 pm

Bradleigh wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
In my opinion, toxic femininity would entail:

- teaching girls they are inherently better than boys
- teaching girls they are inherently less than boys
- teaching intolerance, racism, homophobia, transphobia, elitism, or classism
- teaching them that their beauty is important, or a tool to manipulate others
- teaching them to stay at home and be housewives
- teaching them NOT TO stay at home and be housewives, even if they want to
- expecting that they will have a maternal instinct and want children
- expecting they will "automatically" be good mothers
- reinforcing that they should be 'feminine' (quiet, polite, wearing dresses)
- reinforcing that that other girls who like dresses are outdated / not cool
- reinforcing stereotypes about food, eating, and body image
- enforcing the expectation that marriage is heterosexual and forever
- teaching them that boys have to pay for dates, marriages, homes etc.
- teaching them that only men are predators
- teaching them any sense of entitlement based on their gender (beyond equality)


It kind of feels like a couple of your points are a bit of covering the bases, which has me wondering about maybe just toxic in particular, or perhaps some kind of difference between traditional femininity and some sort of new age kind. The dress thing reminds meme, which had some women/girls dunk on those they saw as "basic" or something, which saw some blowback against these girls trying attacking people in their own gender as shallow while being shallow themselves, to just hating the hate and saying they are all valid.

Image

I see that as a very counter toxic femininity, and although not the same you do probably have some similar examples with masculinity also. The immediate example to make a parallel would be the "not like other guys" thing which is usually just the "nice guys" kind of men/boys, which from what I am aware are a very much known problem to women where guys think that by being nice should be mean they get something in return. Something attached heavily to the incel community. I have seen some people starting to try and look at the subject in seeing that such boys are given no outlet, and something needed like a way to feel confident without hurting or making others feel uncomfortable.

Image

I forgot to ask this, would a man's refusal to defend his wife or girlfriend's reputation when it's attack, on the grounds that that would be a man protecting a woman and therefore sexist; be a masculine equivalent of this kind of toxic femininity?

(I'll get to the patriotism vs nationalism thing a bit, right now I'm busy with something.)


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04 May 2020, 6:01 pm

Greatshield17 wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
In my opinion, toxic femininity would entail:

- teaching girls they are inherently better than boys
- teaching girls they are inherently less than boys
- teaching intolerance, racism, homophobia, transphobia, elitism, or classism
- teaching them that their beauty is important, or a tool to manipulate others
- teaching them to stay at home and be housewives
- teaching them NOT TO stay at home and be housewives, even if they want to
- expecting that they will have a maternal instinct and want children
- expecting they will "automatically" be good mothers
- reinforcing that they should be 'feminine' (quiet, polite, wearing dresses)
- reinforcing that that other girls who like dresses are outdated / not cool
- reinforcing stereotypes about food, eating, and body image
- enforcing the expectation that marriage is heterosexual and forever
- teaching them that boys have to pay for dates, marriages, homes etc.
- teaching them that only men are predators
- teaching them any sense of entitlement based on their gender (beyond equality)


It kind of feels like a couple of your points are a bit of covering the bases, which has me wondering about maybe just toxic in particular, or perhaps some kind of difference between traditional femininity and some sort of new age kind. The dress thing reminds meme, which had some women/girls dunk on those they saw as "basic" or something, which saw some blowback against these girls trying attacking people in their own gender as shallow while being shallow themselves, to just hating the hate and saying they are all valid.

Image

I see that as a very counter toxic femininity, and although not the same you do probably have some similar examples with masculinity also. The immediate example to make a parallel would be the "not like other guys" thing which is usually just the "nice guys" kind of men/boys, which from what I am aware are a very much known problem to women where guys think that by being nice should be mean they get something in return. Something attached heavily to the incel community. I have seen some people starting to try and look at the subject in seeing that such boys are given no outlet, and something needed like a way to feel confident without hurting or making others feel uncomfortable.

Image

I forgot to ask this, would a man's refusal to defend his wife or girlfriend's reputation when it's attack, on the grounds that that would be a man protecting a woman and therefore sexist; be a masculine equivalent of this kind of toxic femininity?

(I'll get to the patriotism vs nationalism thing a bit, right now I'm busy with something.)


If she asks for his help, it's fine.

If he decides it's his job to defend her because she's helpless and he has all the power to rescue the poor damsel, then that's another matter. You might want to read The Paper Bag Princess on that matter.

People helping people is always OK in my books, if help is wanted. It doesn't have to be about gender.


Image



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04 May 2020, 6:03 pm

Don't be this.



And don't help her just to prove you're a man.



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04 May 2020, 6:14 pm

Greatshield17 wrote:
I forgot to ask this, would a man's refusal to defend his wife or girlfriend's reputation when it's attack, on the grounds that that would be a man protecting a woman and therefore sexist; be a masculine equivalent of this kind of toxic femininity?

(I'll get to the patriotism vs nationalism thing a bit, right now I'm busy with something.)


It is not sexist for a man to protect a woman, nor a woman to protect a man. I guess it is often assigned more as masculinity for men to do it, but I think it is toxic in those sort of situations where they say things like a man be in charge because he will be expected to lay down his life.

But there is nuance to this question, I suppose that it should be up to a couple if they think defending honor is something the other should do. It probably becomes toxic if the man his treating his significant other like a child in comparison to what they think an "adult" should be able deal with the situation, or like an object along the lines of an insult to their dishwasher is an insult to themselves. And it would probably be best to keep the other person's feelings in mind, where if she would not have liked violence or something else she would not approve of, he should not do it in her honor.

Some dude getting up in another man's face because he apparently looked at his girl, and she tells him to stop, that would be toxic masculinity. A man telling off a group of guys for saying rude things about his wife or girlfriend, without pushing for violence or intimidating and perhaps like they would do for anyone else, that would probably be fine. But it is always good to keep the other person's feelings in mind.


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04 May 2020, 6:21 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Patriotism to me, means that you love your country...
Yes, well ... there is also this version of Modern Patriotism vs. Modern Nationalism:

Modern Patriotism: "My country can always do better."
Modern Nationalism: "My country is already the best."

Modern Patriotism: "My country, right or wrong!"
Modern Nationalism: "My country; love it or leave it!"

Modern Patriotism: A sense of personal identification with the country.
Modern Nationalism: A sense of personal identification with the government.

Modern Patriotism: Critical of the country whenever necessary.
Modern Nationalism: Silences the critics whenever possible.

Modern Patriotism: Diversity is the foundation of our existence, and must be encouraged.
Modern Nationalism: Diversity is the bane of our existence, and must be eliminated.

Modern Patriotism: Equality, Liberty, and Justice for All.
Modern Nationalism: Equality, Liberty, and Justice for the Privileged Few.

Modern Patriotism: Fighting Nazis.
Modern Nationalism: Being Nazis.

Modern Patriotism: Freedom of Press, Speech, and Peaceful Assembly.
Modern Nationalism: Propaganda, Censorship, and Harassment.

Modern Patriotism: Government by consent of the governed.
Modern Nationalism: Government by force and decree of those who govern.

Modern Patriotism: Hiring and promotion based solely on ability.
Modern Nationalism: Hiring and promotion based on race (white) and sex (male).

Modern Patriotism: Learning from our history and the history of others.
Modern Nationalism: Teaching our version of history to others.

Modern Patriotism: Pride in who you are.
Modern Nationalism: Pride in who you are not.

Modern Patriotism: Special concern for the well-being of the citizenry.
Modern Nationalism: Special concern for the well-being of the leadership.

Modern Patriotism: Upholding the right of others to disagree with authority.
Modern Nationalism: Equating disagreement with treachery, disloyalty, and moral decay.

Modern Patriotism: Willingness to sacrifice oneself to promote the country's good.
Modern Nationalism: Willingness to sacrifice others to promote one's own self-interest.

So it would seem that Traditional Patriotism has morphed into Modern Nationalism, while Traditional Socialism seems to have morphed into Modern Patriotism.



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04 May 2020, 8:15 pm

Karamazov wrote:
I didn’t see patriotism mentioned: I did however see a couple of traits listed which are components of nationalism.
I checked a few dictionaries online: the definition they gave for patriotism was loving ones country, having a strong sense of community with others that do, and whilst respecting that other people love their own countries as you do yours. (Not toxic)
Nationalism however would be holding your country to be the paragon of countries, incapable of wrong and always justified regardless of conduct. (Yeah, pretty toxic, especially when combined with racism & misogyny... which is normative for this way of relating to ones country)

Incidentally the normative Fascist notion of country is that it was great and perfect and a paragon at some point in the historical past, but has been ruined by [insert relevant hated group(s)], and needs to return to that glorious past of purity and virtue in order to fulfil its heroic destiny, and that this is the purpose of existence itself. (as toxic as it gets)

[Edited to add parentheses]

I guess there is a bit of confusion among us Catholics as to patriotism vs nationalism, due mostly to controversy around globalism. Some Catholics define nationalism as merely the right to sovereignty and national autonomy, (although some then slip American exceptionalism into the definition.) while other define it more along lines of national superiority. I lean more towards the latter definition, viewing nationalism as more a form of idolatry, while at the same time opposing globalism and supporting nations' rights to sovereignty. I just prefer to call that, the right to sovereignty or, sovereignty rights.

Speaking of Fascism, what exactly is the general definition of Fascism? I remember telling a left-wing Atheist friend of mine about the Cristiada, and he asked when this took place and I told him during the PRI one-party regime; he then commented that the regime was "Fascist." It seems to me that, the general definition of Fascism among the left is any dictatorial regime that's not explicitly Marxist.


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Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."

WP is the 2nd worst forum site I have ever been on.