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Gromit
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11 May 2020, 4:14 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
If positive, the individual should be incarcerated for life, regardless of criminal record - or even lack thereof.

I don't see a moral justification for that. How do you justify punishing people for who they are, not what they do? You might have a point if you could prove a perfect correlation between the test and future behaviour that would warrant a life sentence. You fail to show that.



The_Walrus
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11 May 2020, 4:15 pm

Someone said that psychopaths and sociopaths aren't actually recognised. This is true, neither term is in the DSM or ICD and the closest equivalent is "anti-social personality disorder".

The homicidal triad was quite popular at one time but is today considered an urban myth: https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog ... urban-myth



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11 May 2020, 4:17 pm

Gromit wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
If positive, the individual should be incarcerated for life, regardless of criminal record - or even lack thereof.

I don't see a moral justification for that. How do you justify punishing people for who they are, not what they do? You might have a point if you could prove a perfect correlation between the test and future behaviour that would warrant a life sentence. You fail to show that.

... and even then, you run into the Minority Report problem, in which knowing you will be accused of murder (for example) changes your behaviour.



Gromit
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11 May 2020, 4:18 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
What most psychologists and criminal profilers track is not psychopathy but the "homicidal triad",which is: Bed wetting,starting fires and unreasonable cruelty toward animals.

Because I had never heard of that before, I tried to look it up. I found this:
Parfitt and Alleyne wrote:
The MacDonald triad posits that animal cruelty, fire setting, and bed wetting in childhood is indicative of later aggressive and violent behavior in adults. Researchers refer to this phenomenon as a precursor to later antisocial behaviors including serial and sexual murder; while practitioners cite the triad in clinical formulations and risk assessments. However, there is yet to be a critical review and consolidation of the literature that establishes whether there is empirical support. This article explores the validity of the triad. We conducted a narrative review of the relevant studies examining the MacDonald triad and its individual constituents. There is evidence that any one of the triad behaviors could predict future violent offending, but it is very rare to find all three behaviors together as predictors. Thus, the empirical research on the MacDonald triad does not fully substantiate its premise. Rather, it would appear that the triad, or its individual constituents, is better used as an indicator of dysfunctional home environments, or poor coping skills in children. Future research is needed with robust and rigorous methodologies (e.g., adequate control groups, longitudinal designs) to fully establish the MacDonald triad’s validity. Finally, further consideration is needed as to whether the triad behaviors are more indicative of other problematic outcomes (e.g., maladaptive coping to life stressors).

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1524838018764164



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11 May 2020, 4:42 pm

I'm shocked at all this hate for another form of ND. Certainly the accommodations for this group needs to be quite different than for us. The ones who do the worse may end up in jail, etc. The ones that do the best end up as bad politicians and CEOs for irresponsible corporations. It's hard to decide which group does the most damage to society. These people need to understand themselves and make life choices that keep themselves out of trouble. Yeah, I know, some chance that's ever going to happen. Here is an interview with one who claims he does live his life this way An Interview with a Sociopath (Antisocial Personality Disorder and Bipolar)


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PhosphorusDecree
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11 May 2020, 5:29 pm

Can I stir the pot a little more? As I said, "psychopathy" is likely to overlap with other, more valid conditions. And I can think of one specific group of people who, if they turn to crime, are likely to get slapped with the "psychopath" label.

Us.

"Subject displays little capacity for empathy...."

(...also, I'm being a tiny bit manipulative here. I'll stop it.)


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11 May 2020, 5:33 pm

I don’t believe most Aspies would be thought of as being “psychopaths.”



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11 May 2020, 5:54 pm



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11 May 2020, 7:10 pm

Gromit wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
What most psychologists and criminal profilers track is not psychopathy but the "homicidal triad",which is: Bed wetting,starting fires and unreasonable cruelty toward animals.

Because I had never heard of that before, I tried to look it up. I found this:
Parfitt and Alleyne wrote:
The MacDonald triad posits that animal cruelty, fire setting, and bed wetting in childhood is indicative of later aggressive and violent behavior in adults. Researchers refer to this phenomenon as a precursor to later antisocial behaviors including serial and sexual murder; while practitioners cite the triad in clinical formulations and risk assessments. However, there is yet to be a critical review and consolidation of the literature that establishes whether there is empirical support. This article explores the validity of the triad. We conducted a narrative review of the relevant studies examining the MacDonald triad and its individual constituents. There is evidence that any one of the triad behaviors could predict future violent offending, but it is very rare to find all three behaviors together as predictors. Thus, the empirical research on the MacDonald triad does not fully substantiate its premise. Rather, it would appear that the triad, or its individual constituents, is better used as an indicator of dysfunctional home environments, or poor coping skills in children. Future research is needed with robust and rigorous methodologies (e.g., adequate control groups, longitudinal designs) to fully establish the MacDonald triad’s validity. Finally, further consideration is needed as to whether the triad behaviors are more indicative of other problematic outcomes (e.g., maladaptive coping to life stressors).

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1524838018764164


Your right, the official psyche jargon is the McDonald triad.But you get the point.


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11 May 2020, 7:12 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I don’t believe most Aspies would be thought of as being “psychopaths.”

Not today but remember that original paper

Die autistischen psychopaten im kindasalter meaning autistic psychopathy in childhood by Hans Asperger


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CarlM
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11 May 2020, 7:31 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I don’t believe most Aspies would be thought of as being “psychopaths.”

Not today but remember that original paper

Die autistischen psychopaten im kindasalter meaning autistic psychopathy in childhood by Hans Asperger


Asperger's "psychopaten" did not have the English meaning of psychopath. The English meaning always struck me as wrong. Sociopath is much clearer.


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kraftiekortie
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11 May 2020, 7:39 pm

Asperger did not mean “psychopathy” under the present-day definition.

It’s more like he meant a generalized psychological or developmental “pathology,” in my view.



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11 May 2020, 8:25 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Gromit wrote:
... How do you justify punishing people for who they are, not what they do? You might have a point if you could prove a perfect correlation between the test and future behaviour that would warrant a life sentence...
... and even then, you run into the Minority Report problem, in which knowing you will be accused of murder (for example) changes your behaviour.
OR, Everything you do to avoid committing a murder ends up putting you in a situation where you must choose between being killed or killing someone in self-defense.

OR, Everything you do to avoid committing a murder means that you are unable to prevent a loved one from being murdered by someone else.

OR, In your haste to get away from PreCrime officers, you run over someone who later dies from his injuries.

OR, ...


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11 May 2020, 9:22 pm

CarlM wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I don’t believe most Aspies would be thought of as being “psychopaths.”

Not today but remember that original paper

Die autistischen psychopaten im kindasalter meaning autistic psychopathy in childhood by Hans Asperger


Asperger's "psychopaten" did not have the English meaning of psychopath. The English meaning always struck me as wrong. Sociopath is much clearer.

So when Asperger used the word psychopathen,if he did not mean psychopathy,then was meant.The English translation of his original paper is autistic psychopathy in childhood.

Psychopath and sociopath is splitting semantic hairs.The psychology profession has never definitively differentiated the difference between the two.


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11 May 2020, 9:32 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Asperger did not mean “psychopathy” under the present-day definition.

It’s more like he meant a generalized psychological or developmental “pathology,” in my view.

But he described a developmental pathology marked by social isolation and poor social skills.

And used the term autism, because at the time (since debunked) he wrongfully thought he was dealing with early childhood schizophrenia.This is why he said psychopathen im kindasalter,because he wrongfully believed he was dealing with childhood sociopaths.

Much of early autism theory has been debunked but it goes to these early doctors state of mind.


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kraftiekortie
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11 May 2020, 9:43 pm

Most sociopaths/psychopaths are not “socially isolated.”

In fact, they can be rather charming and even charismatic. Look at Charles Manson.