The appeal of online Incel communities to autistic men

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magz
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25 May 2022, 7:05 am

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
Employers and advertisers have already reduced men to mere commodities so why should women contradict the obvious preference of society?
Maybe because this "obvious preference of society" is making everyone miserable?


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kitesandtrainsandcats
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25 May 2022, 7:40 am

magz wrote:
kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
Employers and advertisers have already reduced men to mere commodities so why should women contradict the obvious preference of society?
Maybe because this "obvious preference of society" is making everyone miserable?

That would be a good reason.
The question is, what proportion of the population will have to 'be the change' in order to make societal change happen; are there enough people in enough of the right places to 'rock the boat' enough to generate change?


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kraftiekortie
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25 May 2022, 7:47 am

20% of men are supposed to be "alpha males," according to that theory.



magz
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25 May 2022, 7:52 am

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
magz wrote:
kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
Employers and advertisers have already reduced men to mere commodities so why should women contradict the obvious preference of society?
Maybe because this "obvious preference of society" is making everyone miserable?
That would be a good reason.
The question is, what proportion of the population will have to 'be the change' in order to make societal change happen; are there enough people in enough of the right places to 'rock the boat' enough to generate change?
The best place to start changing the world for the better is my own life.
And the way I raise my kids, which is also ultimately decided by the way I live.

Also, I'm living in less "capitalist" society. Here, it's rather about resisting some unhealthy changes than undoing them.


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ironpony
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25 May 2022, 8:23 am

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
magz wrote:
kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
Employers and advertisers have already reduced men to mere commodities so why should women contradict the obvious preference of society?
Maybe because this "obvious preference of society" is making everyone miserable?

That would be a good reason.
The question is, what proportion of the population will have to 'be the change' in order to make societal change happen; are there enough people in enough of the right places to 'rock the boat' enough to generate change?


Well it's being an alpha male is what 80% of women find attractive, society has to change by being an alpha male being promoted a lot more.



Last edited by ironpony on 25 May 2022, 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

Fnord
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25 May 2022, 8:27 am

ironpony wrote:
. . . society has to change by being an alpha male being promoted a lot more.
It would be easier for individual males to "man up" and behave more alpha-like.



magz
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25 May 2022, 8:29 am

ironpony wrote:
Well it's being an alpha male is whar 80% of women find attractive, society has to change by being an alpha male being promoted a lot more.
Do you have any studies to back this 80% claim at all?


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ironpony
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25 May 2022, 8:40 am

magz wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Well it's being an alpha male is whar 80% of women find attractive, society has to change by being an alpha male being promoted a lot more.
Do you have any studies to back this 80% claim at all?


I'm just going by the supposed claim that was made on here. But I also noticed that the more alpha male I have acted over the years, the more dates I have gotten as well.



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25 May 2022, 8:42 am

ironpony wrote:
magz wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Well it's being an alpha male is whar 80% of women find attractive, society has to change by being an alpha male being promoted a lot more.
Do you have any studies to back this 80% claim at all?
I'm just going by the supposed claim that was made on here. . .
Please provide links to your sources.



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25 May 2022, 8:55 am

If I ever tried to act "alpha," I'd be laughed off the stage.



kitesandtrainsandcats
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25 May 2022, 9:00 am

Not peer reviewed science, but perhaps this blog post and conversation with writers and observers of human nature might be of interest;

October 30, 2020
Why We Love (and Resent) Alpha Males
by Laurie Schnebly Campbell

https://writersinthestormblog.com/2020/ ... pha-males/

"
Alpha males sell books.

No matter what else they might be good at -- and we’ve all seen them be good at LOTS of things! -- they’re fabulous at selling books.

But that doesn’t mean every reader, much less every writer, adores those classic alpha males.

For one thing, we have a hard time defining exactly what an alpha male IS. I’m going to ask your opinion, down below, but first let’s look at what we love about these guys...and why we resent them.

...

Because if suddenly this rip-roaring testosterone-driven leader of the pack is murmuring, “Yes, dear, I’ll pick up the drycleaning and be home for dinner whenever you like” -- drat it, he’s no longer quite such a thrilling prize.

He’s more of a regular guy...the kind most readers wish would remember to pick up the drycleaning in everyday life. So where’s the romantic excitement in THAT?

You see the dilemma?

Alpha males are as tough to write as they are to live with -- and yet they’re so attractive, we can’t just throw them out of our pages!
...
"

That last bit, "thrilling prize", "romantic excitement", "so attractive", is the type of content that readers within a society want and buy any kind of a realistic representation of what their society wants and seeks?


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25 May 2022, 9:03 am

Before everyone does an unwarranted victory dance on the devil's grave:


Sexual Strategies Theory: Historical Origins and Current Status
David M. Buss
https://labs.la.utexas.edu/buss/files/2015/09/SST-1998.pdf

Disgust Trumps Lust: Women’s Disgust and Attraction
Towards Men Is Unaffected by Sexual Arousal
Florian Zsok, Diana S. Fleischman, Charmaine Borg, Edward Morrison
https://www.dianafleischman.com/_files/ugd/cb1e47_a58884cba546426b84d339bc84a71168.pdf

THE MATING MIND: HOW SEXUAL CHOICE SHAPED THE EVOLUTION OF
HUMAN NATURE
[Doubleday/Heinemann, 2000, 503 pp. ISBN: 0-434-00741-2]
Precis of Miller on Mating-Mind
Geoffrey F. Miller
https://www.cogsci.ecs.soton.ac.uk/cgi/psyc/newpsy?12.008

Mate Choice and Sexual Selection: What Have We Learned Since Darwin?
Department of Biology, Texas A&M University, 3258 TAMU, College Station, TX 77843.
ADAM G. JONES and NICHOLAS L. RATTERMAN
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK219729/

Sexual Economics: Sex as Female Resource for Social Exchange
in Heterosexual Interactions
Roy F. Baumeister
Kathleen D. Vohs
https://assets.csom.umn.edu/assets/71503.pdf


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techstepgenr8tion
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25 May 2022, 9:10 am

The reason this topic really pisses me off - it's really common in the NT social world to, when something shows up that no one wants to see, just abuse or disconfirm the party with less power until they disappear. That's the mentality that's taking this thread over.

My point with the above articles:

1) red pill, MGTOW, etc. are talking about things that are actually 'real' and happening on the ground. We can debate whether or not bitterness is an effective response and I'd agree with most of those criticisms where it's applicable.

2) to say the words 'female sexual selection' is not to say women are evil. It's as confused as saying that the words 'male sexual selection' drive home a point that men are evil. What we're having trouble coming to terms with is that nature is ruthless, even sociopathic, and it has high-hand on our arousal circuitry. The people involved generally aren't psychopathic (save maybe the 2-5% of our population who would wear the diagnosis properly), they don't hold psychopathic outlooks on the opposite sex generally, but the results of what happens after people follow their instincts have psychopathic output in terms of significant swaths of the population really getting exiled not just from the gene pool but from society in general because the adverse sexual tension with these people makes them uncomfortable to be around, they're likely to have fewer friends, lower paying jobs regardless of competence, that's not the sort of thing people want to think about and it's way easier to punch down at people who end up in that position.


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25 May 2022, 9:11 am

All this "biological" stuff might be somewhat true in a macrocosmic sense.

But, in a microcosmic sense, one could offset "biology" very easily.



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25 May 2022, 9:15 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
. . . to say the words 'female sexual selection' is not to say women are evil.  It's as confused as saying that the words 'male sexual selection' drive home a point that men are evil.  What we're having trouble coming to terms with is that nature is ruthless, even sociopathic, and it has high-hand on our arousal circuitry.  The people involved generally aren't psychopathic (save maybe the 2-5% of our population who would wear the diagnosis properly), they don't hold psychopathic outlooks on the opposite sex generally, but the results of what happens after people follow their instincts have psychopathic output in terms of significant swaths of the population really getting exiled not just from the gene pool but from society in general because the adverse sexual tension with these people makes them uncomfortable to be around, they're likely to have fewer friends, lower paying jobs regardless of competence, that's not the sort of thing people want to think about and it's way easier to punch down at people who end up in that position.
And it is to this very nature of the human species that the "Incel / I-Can't-Get-A-Date" crowd objects, instead of trying to improve their appearances and behaviors to become more attractive to others.



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25 May 2022, 9:16 am

I abstained from posting more articles but Diana Fleischman has links to twenty-five papers which she's solo authored or co-authored. In case anyone wants to get a broader sense of what they're looking at:
https://www.dianafleischman.com/publications


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