Rant: I firmly condemn BLM and its actions!

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just because one is a member of a certain ethnicity, nationality or creed, doesn’t mean that that person knows everything about that said nationality, ethnicity or creed. Many Catholics have been very poorly cathechized, many “Americans” don’t know that their state is supposed to be their country, not the Union as a whole. Truth is Truth regardless of what ethnicities or nationalities are involved.

... what indigenous Americans in California object to is the recognition of the canonisation of Serra, this is yet another example of where the catholic church is out of step with the modern world. Why would god work through a man who used the degradation and suffering of his fellow humans as a means to build shrines to himself??

If you can't see why his statues are being attacked then its because you choose to look at this historical figure through the lens of theological righteousness rather than his actual deeds.

I am able to give you some leeway on the matter of moral relativity whereby the values of the time allowed for the christian concept of divine duty in converting heathen. This was certainly widespread and by no means solely a sin on the part of the catholic church. But while many protestant denominations eventually shifted to support emancipation as early as the 1800s there was silence in Latin America from the catholic church which allowed continued enslavement of indigenous people virtually to the 1900s.

So what indigenous Americans in California object to is the recognition of the canonisation of Serra, this is yet another example of where the catholic church is out of step with the modern world. Why would god work through a man who used the degradation and suffering of his fellow humans as a means to build shrines to himself??

If you can't see why his statues are being attacked then its because you choose to look at this historical figure through the lens of theological righteousness rather than his actual deeds.

Before I begin, I would like to mention something interesting I came across while studying my own province's history at my secular college and later, my secular university. During the early days of British Columbia, the government officials were repeatedly scared about the danger of the province undergoing something called "Californiazation." What was "Californiazation?" Well during the Californian Gold Rush, the authorities hunted down the indigenous peoples and slaughtered them like animals, to ensure they didn't interfere with the gold mining. This was what the government officials of British Columbia were scared of, these acts of violence. These Californian policies were clearly genocidal and yet, up until a couple of years ago, when one looked up "Californian Genocide" one did not get the Gold Rush, one got Saint Junipero Serra's Missions.

Saint Junipero Serra lived in a remote place as is evidenced by the fact that he founded most of the modern-day settlements of California. This is important, not only because it is important to keep in mind that corporal punishment was the norm in frontier lands, regardless of one's ethnicity or creed, but also because the sources we have of St. Junipero Serra are very limited. They come either from the Church, or from a small handful of outsiders, who like most people, often projected their own views onto them. It's highly possible that, one of the origins of the myth of St. Junipero Serra's Missions being genocidal, is guilt over the actual Californian Genocide and efforts to shift blame onto St. Junipero, mixing him into the Spanish Black Legend.

Now let's move onto some of the points presented:



Funny, one of your own points seems to contradict this very claim:


When the indigenous peoples accepted baptism, it was believed they were agreeing to stay at the mission and not leave. Now, obviously, these expectation weren't always that well communicated to the indigenous and thus, they didn't understand that expectation; but there is no deception, much less, coercion on St. Junipero's part. St. Junipero was clear that the indigenous peoples had to come to the missions voluntarily.

As for corporal punishment, I've already explained how that was commonplace among all frontier settlements. It is worth noting however that there is a story, it's unclear whether it's true or not, but there is a story that, shortly after the overthrow of the Aztec Empire, an indigenous man was late for mass and as punishment, was lashed for it. This caused great scandal among the indigenous peoples, and they started to loudly voice their protest to Hernan Cortez and other officials. In response, Cortez made an arrangement with the bishop for he, himself to be late for mass the next Sunday. So next Sunday Hernan was late, and as punishment for it, he was lashed in front of the indigenous peoples; thus sending the message to them that everyone was expected the same behaviour under the law, regardless of their ethnicities.

Also there was one time where a group of indigenous peoples torched San Diego and murdered a priest. The military officials there, (whom St. Juniperro was often at odds with.) wanted the indigenous peoples put to death for the act, but St. Junipero argued against it and was able to have their lives spared.


As I mentioned in my previous posts, these labours provided the indigenous peoples an economic defense against exploitation by the incoming settlers. Many of these new practices enriched the culture of the indigenous peoples, and the Spanish in turn also found new things in some of the practices of the indigenous peoples. From the sources themselves, St. Junipero Serra is said to have found "cleverness in everything [the indigenous peoples] did."


"Religion" eh? you mean like, oh what's the word I'm looking for, idolatry?!? The thing that you and, at least one other person on here has accused me and other Catholics of engaging in? Well while people on here may accuse me of idolatry, St. Junipero Serra did not look down on the indigenous peoples as pagans or heathens, he considered them "gentiles" or unchurched people. People who were in search of the True Religion and just hadn't found it yet. I already mentioned in my previous response how both cultures exchanged innovations that improved each other; and I also mentioned how they went voluntarily albeit, maybe not having had full understanding of what they were agreeing to.

Also, I think it's worth considering that, while the indigenous peoples of St. Junipero's time may have been cut off from their villages and the like for agreeing to be baptized. The indigenous peoples of later generations were cut off from their bodies during the Gold Rush, for getting in the way of prospectors.


The Latin prayers in the Mass were not said for the lay people, they were said for God, they offered up for God, they were not meant to laity to hear and understand. Indeed, during the early days of the Church, and this is still the case in some of Eastern Catholic Churches today, the laity weren't expected to stay attentive before the priest for most of the Mass; but rather go about the church and visit the various statues and icons of the Saints present there and speak with them. It was only during the reading of the Gospel, the sermon or homily, and the consecration and reception of Holy Communion; that the laity were supposed to be attentive.

Now I'm not sure what the indigenous peoples were allowed to do during the Masses of Saint Junipero's day, but nonetheless, I can hardly see this as being bad as getting lashed. Also, in regards to the Latin in particular, as I'm sure most people are aware, most Masses are now said in the vernacular. And despite the vernacular languages present in the Mass, a lot of people still have no idea what's going on in them, and thus, a lot of young people are now actually opting to attend Traditional Latin Mass parishes instead. (Not because of the Latin or vernacular mind you, there is a whole boatload of other complex and controversial reason that are several other stories for other times.)


I should have mentioned above that Junipero Serra had the agricultural labour run in a monastic style, because he believed it would be the easiest and most efficient way of getting things done. There was flexibility in the style however, at one point a huge amount of sardines were washed onto the shore, (I'm not sure if such a thing in California is an annual occurrence or something that happens by chance.) and St. Junipero allowed the schedule to be altered so that the indigenous peoples could collect the sardines.


Unlike the real Californian genocide, the British handing-out of smallpox blankets, or the Mi'kmaq scalp bounty in Nova Scotia; and unlike Emperor Caligula, who took sadistic pleasure in killing people, Saint Junipero Serra had absolutely zero intention for killing Indigenous peoples. Calling Saint Junipero's Missions genocidal and comparing him to Emperor Caligula is just outrageous. In a just a society you should be ashamed of yourself for saying such things.

But alas, we don't live in a just society do we? No, in this society, I'm the racist animal for calling out such disgusting attacks.


In the videos I saw, the crowd that was cheering maliciously as they attacked the statue, actually looked mostly white to me; I'm not saying they were white, I realize that some indigenous peoples can have caucasian appearances and features. But it doesn't matter, I don't care what ethnicity you are, when you attack a member of spiritual family, I'm going to respond; and I don't care who you are or what you identify as, I don't care what grievances you have, because when you do stuff like this, you cease to be the victim and become the victimizer.

But all that being said, I don't exactly want to continue this debate. I'm willing continue this debate if I must, but several things are making me reluctant. Key among them are first, there is a very distinct possibility that everything I say on here will be dismissed simply because it's Catholic. I wish I didn't have to speculate this, but based on what I've seen on this thread and on several others, I just cannot help but accept that as a distinct possibility.

But a deeper reason why I'm reluctant to continue the debate is this, I am fully willing to be called a racist, a monster and the like for saying and standing by all this, I should be. I know full well that Catholic teaching is not only rejected by people who support BLM and similar groups, but also despised and condemned as "evil" by the like. I should be able to accept to be yelled at as an evil racist and viewed as scum and suffer incredible things for the sake of the Lord's Love; because at the end of the day, I can have everything taken away from me, and everything that't not taken away from me, I'm going to lose in the end. There is only one thing that cannot be taken away from me, my chance at Eternal Salvation. And there is only one person that can take my chance for Eternal Salvation away from me, myself; and unfortunately, in my process of looking up information on St. Junipero Serra before going on here, I committed a mortal sin. I came across a news article regarding the fate of another statue of Saint Junipero Serra, in reading the article I got angry and I ended up committing a rash judgement against a priest involved in that story. Rash judgements are a mortal sin, so now I have to contact my diocese and see if I can make arrangements for a confession. When I commit a mortal sin, I get depressed, and I end up functioning a bit poorer then I would under ordinary circumstances; and in this time when I'm taking huge steps forward and when there are now calls for statues of Jesus and Mary to be smashed, I feel rather depressed that I've taken this huge stumble at this point in time.

I'll keep debating if people insist, don't assume that I've lost the debate. But I would rather be preparing for the high probability of a storm coming, in the very near future. At my secular college my history instructor twice touched on the Canadian Martyrs, or the North American Martyrs as they're also been called, in two different courses. In those two times he touched upon the Martyrs, I noticed that his tone got very odd. He disapproved of the Martyrs bringing the Faith to the Hurons, yet when he touched upon the Martyrs themselves and how they were "fanatics" for willing to suffer everything, and lay down their lives for the sake of bring the Gospel to the Hurons; I heard something very distinct in the instructor's voice. After hearing it the second time around, in my second course, (by then I had reverted to the Catholic Faith, I was a deist the first time I heard it) and reflecting on it afterwards, I finally realized what it was that I heard in the instructor's voice, fear. The instructor was frightened by the idea that people were truly willing suffer and die, all for the sake of converting indigenous peoples to the Catholic Faith. That really inspired me, not because I wanted to "strike fear into the hearts of my enemies," but because what better is there to show people, that you do not hold the Catholic Faith because you are a bigot and racist and want to profit off the old way of doing things; than suffering and dying for the Faith? To show that you truly Love God and love your fellow human beings for God's sake, and that Catholic Church's teachings are for the benefit humanity and not bigoted and crude. I became deeply devoted to the Canadians Martyrs and have been praying for the grace to have a zeal like them for a long time.

This thread is not just a rebuke, it's an act of defiance. I'm letting you know that not only you not be getting off un-rebuked for your actions, or your support of these actions, but that these actions will bring you no triumph. You can pull down statues of St. Junipero Serra, but you will never be able to pull down Saint Junipero himself, out of Heaven. In the end, Our Lady's Immaculate Heart will triumph, and the Lord has preserved 7000 in the New and Eternal Israel, the Catholic Church, who have not kneeled down before BLM or any other statue-smashing group.

Here're my arguments again, for those of you who have trouble finding them on this thread.

You're still celebrating a genocidal monster GS. This is a turd that can't be polished.

The only thing I can glean from this post is, that he is a "genocidal monster" because you say so. That's all I can glean, no refutation of my arguments, no new information, nothing, just a rejection of the arguments.

I'm not a Catholic theologian, so your religious justifications aren't a concern for me, just his documented actions.

I visited the monasteries in San Luis Obispo and San Diego that Serra built when travelling with my parents in California 1980. The monks seemed quite pious and I can actually remember prominent statues of Serra in San Luis Obispo over a fountain (so my experience with this saint actually predates your birth goldenshields).

You never asked me what I thought of the removal of statues (you assumed I was siding with the native Americans when infact all I was doing was reporting how they felt about Serra and their motive/intent behind removing his statues.

I think removing the statues of Serra also removes historical artifacts. I would instead include a plaque commemorating all the Indians who he enslaved so visitors in future can learn more about the true impact of his missions.

Actually logic pre-dates Thomism and Catholic philosophy, we do use it a lot though.

TOTEM:
Just Another Name for A Statue of 'A Saint', Now;
Or A Sculpted Word on a Page Like 'Jesus' that is no longer
An Actual Name of the Living Being With Breath that has become a Valuable
Object Created As Sacred For Folks in Sects of Christian Language of Religion; And
Where this Sacred Object of Jesus is Venerated to the Point of Demand; that unless
one Falls on Bended Knee to Worship this Human Sculpted Word of 'Jesus'; Guess what,
You ALL are Gonna Burn in Hell Forever, for not Worshipping That 'Particular Trump Tower';
Some folks, Value the 'Statue of Jesus in a Word on a Page'; And Some Folks pay the Symbol
of 'Jesus' as No Value at All, in other particular views of life, And Associated Sacred Symbols
That Bind And Bond For Religion; Like What kind of Four-Wheel-Drive-Do-Ya-Love, Ford or Chevrolet;
True, Some folks practice the Religion of Chevrolet, Life Long; And Others Do Ford, Unless they consider
it an Acronym "For Fix Or Repair Daily" as that is How Folks who Do not Belong to the 'Ford Religion' May
Denigrate it. In Other Religions, Like the "Honda Religion", Those Cars Are Worshipped Truly More Like 'Real
God Lovers', Lasting at Least 200,000 Miles, if Properly Worshipped and Pampered With Oil Changes and the such.

And sure, Then There are Sports And Teams; Yes, Religions Like The 'New York Jets' in 'the UniVerse of Pro Football'.
They Once Had A 'Jesus' Named Joe Namath, back in my Earlier Days of Youth too.

'Totems' Aren't Going Away; The Totems of Christian Sects Are Fading Away
As Every Church That Closes its Doors on Another Day;
Religions And Totems Come and Go; No Doubt that
the Indians of Canada didn't wanna See their
Religions And Totems Forcefully Be taken
Away too And Replaced by Christianity
Forcefully As Was Done; But That's Life;
it Changes; Wars Are Even Fought Over
Changes of Religions
And Totems
too; But
Again that's
Life; This is no surprise at all.

Basic Definition of Totem From Professors Wiki:

"A 'totem' (Ojibwe doodem) is a spirit being, sacred object,
or symbol that serves as an emblem of a group of people,
such as a family, clan, lineage, or tribe."

Humans Have Been Creating 'Sacred Objects' As Symbols for Bonding And Binding
Over Their Particular 'Religion' Inherent in How We Do Bond And Bind Over Objects We
Create As Sacred Symbols as Long as Human Histories come and go in the ArtiFacts of Humanity that still exist.

True, We Own Nothing In This Life; Star Dust We Come From, Star Dust We Go; All That Truly
Belongs to Us Is Our Living Breath for Now; Pharaohs Built The Pyramids, Hoping to
Live Forever, for their Names in 'KA' of Spirit to Go On; One Day Those Pyramids
Will Turn to Dust; As Will All Traces of Human Civilization, in Around 300 Million
Years, If we are ever Foolish Enough to continue to do stuff like Not Wearing Masks;
Short Sighted, Ignorant, During Pandemics as there is another Potential one Brewing in China now.

Nothing is Our own; But it's true, As Long as We Are Human, We Will Bind And Bond Over Totems;
We Will Always Venerate the Tools We Create as Sacred and Holy Extensions of our Breath;
It does Seem That 'Godzilla', OtherWise Known As A Symbol For Nature, Taking Back Balance is
Reigning More As 'Spirit Animal' Totem Now; Seriously, The United States is a symbol for Taking
Whatever the 'God' We Want From Nature in More than We Give Back; As The United States Uses 40
Percent of the World's Environmental Resources as Just A Fraction of the Population of that;
So, who is gonna throw the
First Stone of
'Which Statue'
Is Deadlier now;
True, Here at least, We
All Worship 'Killing Statues', in one way or another of Short
Sighted, Ignorance Now. There is No Liberty, When We Destroy the Only
Face of God We Have; The Nature that Supports us; the Nature We aRe.

'Go Godzilla'; Show Humans What Happens when they take more than they give;

Or Just Another Little Messenger Like a Bat coming With 'Wrath of Nature', Without 'a Care' for
What We think
Or Whatever
Statue/Totem
We Worship now, Bonding Over the Symbols;
Again, No Lasting Liberty Without Balance, Now;
Humans Come and Humans Go; in a blink of existence now;
Star Dust We Come, Star Dust We Go; if Only We Will Appreciate
the Gift of Breath in Balance now, Then We Come longer and 'Chew the Fat' some more...

The Essence of Why Folks Venerate What they create, is the Feel Good Neurohormones
Like Oxytocin; And Neurochemicals, Like The Eraser of Anxiety, Serotonin, in Comfort of
Humanity Peace And Harmony too; As Whatever Folks Venerate in Worship of Gratitude,
The Essence Is As Real as Human Living Breath now.

i Venerate Colors of 'FLoWeRS' And REAL FRiEnDSHIP LOVE THE SAME FOR FREE; RETAINING ALL THE
HEAVENLY Real BENEFITS Within THAT FOLKS STRUGGLE FOR WITH WHATEVER WE CREATE THAT
EVENTUALLY TURNS TO DUST OR RUSTS; Or Is taken Away As Human Clothes; Yet, Naked Love
Breathes, as Classically evolved; No Matter If all the Cultural Clothes are taken Away.

The Love We Garden; The Love We Tender; Yes, The Love We Give,
Lives On, Whether We Water A Flower or the Eyes of a Loved
one to Give, When We no longer Exist on this Planet.

i'd Rather Worship God As Breath
Than What Rusts Quicker as 'Stuff'
And Turns to Cold Dust Within as Dead.

Love is the Real Gold Dust Born of Star Breath.

Truly Nothing is Our Own; But That Breath, Living Or Living Dead Now, Within;
As We May Give And Share It With All Others; Yes, The Rest of Living Nature With Least Harm..

Let me know when you finally make use of logic in an argument.

You're still celebrating a genocidal monster GS. This is a turd that can't be polished.

The only thing I can glean from this post is, that he is a "genocidal monster" because you say so. That's all I can glean, no refutation of my arguments, no new information, nothing, just a rejection of the arguments.