Be Woke, It's Much Easier Than Thinking!
25 Jun 2020, 9:53 am
A friend of mine relates the following story:
One of Fnord's friends wrote:
I was having a pleasant conversation with a lesbian undergraduate, who was majoring in Gender Studies, when I included Islam amongst regressive patriarchal forces. With perfect "Woke" adamant and self-righteous certainty she stated flatly, "Islam is not regressive!" Whereupon she instantly shut down the conversation. Of course, from the point of view of belief conservation, she was right to do so, because given an opportunity to respond I would have pointed out that the treatment of half a billion women under Islam is by far the greatest human rights disaster on the planet with nothing even a close second; that Islam enslaved ten times more Africans than the white Europeans ever did; that according to the Hadiths and Muhammad’s Sacred Biography the prophet personally, and with avid enthusiasm, beheaded several hundred surrendered Jewish men, women and children; and that this "religion of peace" has always been a world conquest ideology. which 70 years after the Prophet's death had conquered a land mass 7 times the size of the USA and 3 times the size of the Roman Empire at its peak.
But "Woke" fundamentalist cannot hear or be told such historic facts because they will brand you an Islamaphobic racist (even though Islam is a religion, not a race) before you can speak any amount of "heretical" facts.
So, at this point, though they may have dreadlocks and tattoos, et cetera, I have come to see that a great many young "Woke" people are actually a bunch of uptight, rigid, self-righteous church ladies in disguise.
While my friend's experience happened more than a dozen years ago, I too have witnessed and been a part of many similar instances wherein someone whose outlook was not in lock-step with the "Woke" culture was branded by a member of that same culture as racist, sexist, and generally "Closed-Minded".But "Woke" fundamentalist cannot hear or be told such historic facts because they will brand you an Islamaphobic racist (even though Islam is a religion, not a race) before you can speak any amount of "heretical" facts.
So, at this point, though they may have dreadlocks and tattoos, et cetera, I have come to see that a great many young "Woke" people are actually a bunch of uptight, rigid, self-righteous church ladies in disguise.
How horrible it must be to live in a "Closed-Minded" society that does not agree with your own narrow perspective.
Has anyone else had similar experiences with "Woke" people?
_________________
25 Jun 2020, 10:08 am
In a sense, but in a slightly different way.
As an asexual/agender/aromantic person, I run in some pretty liberal circles of discussion. On the goofy end of that are the people who think anyone should be able to identify as anything, definitions of words mean nothing, and if you disagree with either of those two things, then you're committing the sin of not being "inclusive."
For example, I get myself into trouble in asexuality groups when I disagree that a person who loves sex and actively seeks it out is not actually "asexual."
Also, there are the people who need to have 30+ labels to describe their "identity."
"Hi, I'm Chaz. I'm a transmasc, feminine-presenting, demisexual, genderqueer, femme butch, transboi.....ect."
And I'm like, dude, give it a rest. You're not that complex, interesting, or deep, AND nobody actually cares.
_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."
-XFG (no longer a moderator)
25 Jun 2020, 10:12 am
I've had similar experiences (even on this site, the "racist" tag is freely distributed on opinions unliked by certain members, ignoring the actual content that they were replying to), and in a similar way, I've come to the concluson that there are some people so firmly attached to seeking out the "sinners" and making them repent that there is no chance of having a meaningful discussion with them.
I would suggest, however, that your "subject" heading for this thread is a bit misleading...I would expect it takes a lot of "thinking" to be "woke", as you would always be needing to check what you were going to say in order to ensure it would not "offend" anyone (excluding the "heretics", of course).
25 Jun 2020, 10:17 am
The title of this thread was chosen to illuminate the automatic, almost reflexive way that many "Woke" people seem to react to conflicting ideas -- any disagreement, even the slightest correction ("Did you really prefer the use of the Oxford Comma?"), are likely to result in an immediate and mindless dressing-down that would make a Marine drill-instructor seem diplomatic by comparison.
All the other statements I've read so far are spot-on!
People who claim to be "woke" seem to exhibit an extreme lack of perception of the outside world and other people, as well as huge amount of self-righteousness. Discourse, to them, is not a conversation, but it has become some sort of intellectual self-gratification. They try to project "superiority" over others by shouting out out random bits of questionable information, preaching from whatever holy book seems handy, and insulting anyone who asks a question for clarification. Instead of getting others to understand their position, they push them away with shouting and violent words. Sorta like the drunk who abuses his wife and children and then demands that they love him regardless of his drunken rages.
_________________
25 Jun 2020, 10:56 am
XFilesGeek wrote:
In a sense, but in a slightly different way.
As an asexual/agender/aromantic person, I run in some pretty liberal circles of discussion. On the goofy end of that are the people who think anyone should be able to identify as anything, definitions of words mean nothing, and if you disagree with either of those two things, then you're committing the sin of not being "inclusive."
For example, I get myself into trouble in asexuality groups when I disagree that a person who loves sex and actively seeks it out is not actually "asexual."
Also, there are the people who need to have 30+ labels to describe their "identity."
"Hi, I'm Chaz. I'm a transmasc, feminine-presenting, demisexual, genderqueer, femme butch, transboi.....ect."
And I'm like, dude, give it a rest. You're not that complex, interesting, or deep, AND nobody actually cares.
As an asexual/agender/aromantic person, I run in some pretty liberal circles of discussion. On the goofy end of that are the people who think anyone should be able to identify as anything, definitions of words mean nothing, and if you disagree with either of those two things, then you're committing the sin of not being "inclusive."
For example, I get myself into trouble in asexuality groups when I disagree that a person who loves sex and actively seeks it out is not actually "asexual."
Also, there are the people who need to have 30+ labels to describe their "identity."
"Hi, I'm Chaz. I'm a transmasc, feminine-presenting, demisexual, genderqueer, femme butch, transboi.....ect."
And I'm like, dude, give it a rest. You're not that complex, interesting, or deep, AND nobody actually cares.
Your example reminds me of this:
25 Jun 2020, 11:06 am
Fnord wrote:
The title of this thread was chosen to illuminate the automatic, almost reflexive way that many "Woke" people seem to react to conflicting ideas -- any disagreement, even the slightest correction ("Did you really prefer the use of the Oxford Comma?"), are likely to result in an immediate and mindless dressing-down that would make a Marine drill-instructor seem diplomatic by comparison.
All the other statements I've read so far are spot-on!
People who claim to be "woke" seem to exhibit an extreme lack of perception of the outside world and other people, as well as huge amount of self-righteousness. Discourse, to them, is not a conversation, but it has become some sort of intellectual self-gratification. They try to project "superiority" over others by shouting out out random bits of questionable information, preaching from whatever holy book seems handy, and insulting anyone who asks a question for clarification. Instead of getting others to understand their position, they push them away with shouting and violent words. Sorta like the drunk who abuses his wife and children and then demands that they love him regardless of his drunken rages.
All the other statements I've read so far are spot-on!
People who claim to be "woke" seem to exhibit an extreme lack of perception of the outside world and other people, as well as huge amount of self-righteousness. Discourse, to them, is not a conversation, but it has become some sort of intellectual self-gratification. They try to project "superiority" over others by shouting out out random bits of questionable information, preaching from whatever holy book seems handy, and insulting anyone who asks a question for clarification. Instead of getting others to understand their position, they push them away with shouting and violent words. Sorta like the drunk who abuses his wife and children and then demands that they love him regardless of his drunken rages.
^This. Also, your friend is correct in my opinion. "Politics make strange bedfellows" and "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" come to mind in regard to feminism and Progressivism and their blind eye toward Islamic human rights violation issues. The enemy of Progressivism? Christianity.
25 Jun 2020, 11:08 am
Fnord wrote:
The title of this thread was chosen to illuminate the automatic, almost reflexive way that many "Woke" people seem to react to conflicting ideas -- any disagreement, even the slightest correction ("Did you really prefer the use of the Oxford Comma?"), are likely to result in an immediate and mindless dressing-down that would make a Marine drill-instructor seem diplomatic by comparison.
All the other statements I've read so far are spot-on!
People who claim to be "woke" seem to exhibit an extreme lack of perception of the outside world and other people, as well as huge amount of self-righteousness. Discourse, to them, is not a conversation, but it has become some sort of intellectual self-gratification. They try to project "superiority" over others by shouting out out random bits of questionable information, preaching from whatever holy book seems handy, and insulting anyone who asks a question for clarification. Instead of getting others to understand their position, they push them away with shouting and violent words. Sorta like the drunk who abuses his wife and children and then demands that they love him regardless of his drunken rages.
All the other statements I've read so far are spot-on!
People who claim to be "woke" seem to exhibit an extreme lack of perception of the outside world and other people, as well as huge amount of self-righteousness. Discourse, to them, is not a conversation, but it has become some sort of intellectual self-gratification. They try to project "superiority" over others by shouting out out random bits of questionable information, preaching from whatever holy book seems handy, and insulting anyone who asks a question for clarification. Instead of getting others to understand their position, they push them away with shouting and violent words. Sorta like the drunk who abuses his wife and children and then demands that they love him regardless of his drunken rages.
Thinking over past conversations, in some cases this reflex may be due to having a "victim" mentality, where they believe (or have been "taught" to believe) that anything said about their group\their prefered group which they don't agree with is a personal attack on themself, rather than a generalized statement\observation, and reflexively put up the defensive "ism" instead of taking the time to consider different people may have different opinions which are as valid as their own.
In other cases, it may also be due to seeing something which demonstrates a flaw in their own logic\beliefs, which they may not be able to cope with.
25 Jun 2020, 11:22 am
But where there is pushback, there is hope.
There always has been, and always will be pushback against "wokeism", because "wokeness" is the antithesis of what most rational people of all political persuasions believe. It is a philosophy that demonizes anyone who transgresses their laws, and that has more in common with the Puritans of the 16th and 17th centuries than with the neo-Socialists of today.
Most rational people understand that working to fight legitimate injustices that occur in our society is admirable. There is absolutely nothing wrong with opposing racism, sexism, and other forms of bigotry; it's a commendable endeavor. But "wokeness" has become a social phenomenon that is now used as a form of thought-control to enforce adherence to the more extreme tenets of "Political Correctness" and "Social Justice". It is just another tool to enforce a type of cultural totalitarianism and shame people into obedience to a small, yet very vocal minority of radicals on the furthest "left" end of the political spectrum.
It is no surprise that resistance to "wokeness" is occurring, left, right, and center. It is the inevitable response to any movement that seeks to force compliance through fear and humiliation. Hopefully, the sensible crowd will win; if not, it could make our already tense social discourse even more toxic.
_________________
25 Jun 2020, 11:35 am
Fnord wrote:
But where there is pushback, there is hope.
There always has been, and always will be pushback against "wokeism", because "wokeness" is the antithesis of what most rational people of all political persuasions believe. It is a philosophy that demonizes anyone who transgresses their laws, and that has more in common with the Puritans of the 16th and 17th centuries than with the neo-Socialists of today.
Most rational people understand that working to fight legitimate injustices that occur in our society is admirable. There is absolutely nothing wrong with opposing racism, sexism, and other forms of bigotry; it's a commendable endeavor. But "wokeness" has become a social phenomenon that is now used as a form of thought-control to enforce adherence to the more extreme tenets of "Political Correctness" and "Social Justice". It is just another tool to enforce a type of cultural totalitarianism and shame people into obedience to a small, yet very vocal minority of radicals on the furthest "left" end of the political spectrum.
It is no surprise that resistance to "wokeness" is occurring, left, right, and center. It is the inevitable response to any movement that seeks to force compliance through fear and humiliation. Hopefully, the sensible crowd will win; if not, it could make our already tense social discourse even more toxic.
There always has been, and always will be pushback against "wokeism", because "wokeness" is the antithesis of what most rational people of all political persuasions believe. It is a philosophy that demonizes anyone who transgresses their laws, and that has more in common with the Puritans of the 16th and 17th centuries than with the neo-Socialists of today.
Most rational people understand that working to fight legitimate injustices that occur in our society is admirable. There is absolutely nothing wrong with opposing racism, sexism, and other forms of bigotry; it's a commendable endeavor. But "wokeness" has become a social phenomenon that is now used as a form of thought-control to enforce adherence to the more extreme tenets of "Political Correctness" and "Social Justice". It is just another tool to enforce a type of cultural totalitarianism and shame people into obedience to a small, yet very vocal minority of radicals on the furthest "left" end of the political spectrum.
It is no surprise that resistance to "wokeness" is occurring, left, right, and center. It is the inevitable response to any movement that seeks to force compliance through fear and humiliation. Hopefully, the sensible crowd will win; if not, it could make our already tense social discourse even more toxic.
Well put. I too believe there are similarities with wokeness and Puritanism in the sense that I believe that "wokeness" is a religion of sorts for those who practice it.
25 Jun 2020, 11:44 am
Magna wrote:
Fnord wrote:
But where there is pushback, there is hope.
There always has been, and always will be pushback against "wokeism", because "wokeness" is the antithesis of what most rational people of all political persuasions believe. It is a philosophy that demonizes anyone who transgresses their laws, and that has more in common with the Puritans of the 16th and 17th centuries than with the neo-Socialists of today.
Most rational people understand that working to fight legitimate injustices that occur in our society is admirable. There is absolutely nothing wrong with opposing racism, sexism, and other forms of bigotry; it's a commendable endeavor. But "wokeness" has become a social phenomenon that is now used as a form of thought-control to enforce adherence to the more extreme tenets of "Political Correctness" and "Social Justice". It is just another tool to enforce a type of cultural totalitarianism and shame people into obedience to a small, yet very vocal minority of radicals on the furthest "left" end of the political spectrum.
It is no surprise that resistance to "wokeness" is occurring, left, right, and center. It is the inevitable response to any movement that seeks to force compliance through fear and humiliation. Hopefully, the sensible crowd will win; if not, it could make our already tense social discourse even more toxic.
There always has been, and always will be pushback against "wokeism", because "wokeness" is the antithesis of what most rational people of all political persuasions believe. It is a philosophy that demonizes anyone who transgresses their laws, and that has more in common with the Puritans of the 16th and 17th centuries than with the neo-Socialists of today.
Most rational people understand that working to fight legitimate injustices that occur in our society is admirable. There is absolutely nothing wrong with opposing racism, sexism, and other forms of bigotry; it's a commendable endeavor. But "wokeness" has become a social phenomenon that is now used as a form of thought-control to enforce adherence to the more extreme tenets of "Political Correctness" and "Social Justice". It is just another tool to enforce a type of cultural totalitarianism and shame people into obedience to a small, yet very vocal minority of radicals on the furthest "left" end of the political spectrum.
It is no surprise that resistance to "wokeness" is occurring, left, right, and center. It is the inevitable response to any movement that seeks to force compliance through fear and humiliation. Hopefully, the sensible crowd will win; if not, it could make our already tense social discourse even more toxic.
Well put. I too believe there are similarities with wokeness and Puritanism in the sense that I believe that "wokeness" is a religion of sorts for those who practice it.
Posted something a while ago in *I’ve forgotten which thread* along similar lines: observed that there have been several instances of attempts to reduce all human interactions to a absolutist code of moral purity in western history.
I wonder how many of the kids involved in it are there out of fear of social rejection and isolation if they don’t take part...
25 Jun 2020, 11:55 am
Karamazov wrote:
... I wonder how many of the kids involved in it are there out of fear of social rejection and isolation if they don’t take part...
I believe that this is the core motivation for the majority of all the people claiming to be "woke".But this motivation is so far beyond wrong that it may qualify only as stupid.
The word "woke" initially shone a light on the subtle elements of pernicious racism that's invisibly entangled in popular culture. It has transformed from being a social and political statement; to being overused by mainstream media, white and black allies alike; to being used to subtly call out overeager white allies; and now the entire "woke" movement has turned into something of a self-parody -- e.g., a joke.
By stating that one is "woke", they're draped in a cloak of social consciousness. "Woke" then becomes a kind of shorthand, an easily affordable and positive character attribute. This rings hollow, because someone's racism (of course) doesn't magically disappear when they publicly announce that they're "woke" and begin to call out other people for not being "woke".
Instead of calling out others, "woke" people should stop talking, center themselves, listen, and learn from those who've been oppressed. Sure, people can use social platforms to start discussions, but the also must ensure that there's still plenty of room for the truly oppressed to speak out.
_________________
25 Jun 2020, 12:00 pm
Karamazov wrote:
Magna wrote:
Fnord wrote:
But where there is pushback, there is hope.
There always has been, and always will be pushback against "wokeism", because "wokeness" is the antithesis of what most rational people of all political persuasions believe. It is a philosophy that demonizes anyone who transgresses their laws, and that has more in common with the Puritans of the 16th and 17th centuries than with the neo-Socialists of today.
Most rational people understand that working to fight legitimate injustices that occur in our society is admirable. There is absolutely nothing wrong with opposing racism, sexism, and other forms of bigotry; it's a commendable endeavor. But "wokeness" has become a social phenomenon that is now used as a form of thought-control to enforce adherence to the more extreme tenets of "Political Correctness" and "Social Justice". It is just another tool to enforce a type of cultural totalitarianism and shame people into obedience to a small, yet very vocal minority of radicals on the furthest "left" end of the political spectrum.
It is no surprise that resistance to "wokeness" is occurring, left, right, and center. It is the inevitable response to any movement that seeks to force compliance through fear and humiliation. Hopefully, the sensible crowd will win; if not, it could make our already tense social discourse even more toxic.
There always has been, and always will be pushback against "wokeism", because "wokeness" is the antithesis of what most rational people of all political persuasions believe. It is a philosophy that demonizes anyone who transgresses their laws, and that has more in common with the Puritans of the 16th and 17th centuries than with the neo-Socialists of today.
Most rational people understand that working to fight legitimate injustices that occur in our society is admirable. There is absolutely nothing wrong with opposing racism, sexism, and other forms of bigotry; it's a commendable endeavor. But "wokeness" has become a social phenomenon that is now used as a form of thought-control to enforce adherence to the more extreme tenets of "Political Correctness" and "Social Justice". It is just another tool to enforce a type of cultural totalitarianism and shame people into obedience to a small, yet very vocal minority of radicals on the furthest "left" end of the political spectrum.
It is no surprise that resistance to "wokeness" is occurring, left, right, and center. It is the inevitable response to any movement that seeks to force compliance through fear and humiliation. Hopefully, the sensible crowd will win; if not, it could make our already tense social discourse even more toxic.
Well put. I too believe there are similarities with wokeness and Puritanism in the sense that I believe that "wokeness" is a religion of sorts for those who practice it.
Posted something a while ago in *I’ve forgotten which thread* along similar lines: observed that there have been several instances of attempts to reduce all human interactions to a absolutist code of moral purity in western history.
I wonder how many of the kids involved in it are there out of fear of social rejection and isolation if they don’t take part...
Humans seem to have a deep seated desire "religion" in some form. If not for organized religion, then for causes with devotion that's akin to religious fervor. Bob Dylan wrote a song on the subject titled: Gotta Serve Somebody.
Environmentalism
Social Justice and it's many sub-causes
They can have devotees that practice and ascribe to them with devotion that equals even the most extreme organized religions. They can be religions. As such, certain devotees of these that practice to a religious level but that are anti-organized religion can't seem to see that they denounce certain religions while practicing religion themselves.
25 Jun 2020, 12:00 pm
XFilesGeek wrote:
"Hi, I'm Chaz. I'm a transmasc, feminine-presenting, demisexual, genderqueer, femme butch, transboi.....ect."
And I'm like, dude, give it a rest. You're not that complex, interesting, or deep, AND nobody actually cares.
Quoted for lack of a Like-button, small point reduction for lacking custom pronouns.
_________________
I'm bored out of my skull, let's play a different game. Let's pay a visit down below and cast the world in flame.
25 Jun 2020, 12:29 pm
Magna wrote:
Humans seem to have a deep seated desire "religion" in some form. If not for organized religion, then for causes with devotion that's akin to religious fervor. Bob Dylan wrote a song on the subject titled: Gotta Serve Somebody.
Environmentalism
Social Justice and it's many sub-causes
They can have devotees that practice and ascribe to them with devotion that equals even the most extreme organized religions. They can be religions. As such, certain devotees of these that practice to a religious level but that are anti-organized religion can't seem to see that they denounce certain religions while practicing religion themselves.
Environmentalism
Social Justice and it's many sub-causes
They can have devotees that practice and ascribe to them with devotion that equals even the most extreme organized religions. They can be religions. As such, certain devotees of these that practice to a religious level but that are anti-organized religion can't seem to see that they denounce certain religions while practicing religion themselves.
Yes, that desperate need for a mytho-poetic narrative that confirms one is good, justified and... important. Seems to be most acute in adolescence and grief. (At least... I think that’s what’s afoot).
I’d have probably taken you up on including environmentalism five or so years ago... but since then I’ve noticed what used to be mockingly referred to as “Deep Green” stances become more prominent, rejection of any attempt to find technological fixes and work arounds creeping into opinion sections of newspapers and so on: almost like their willing an apocalypse.
Very FundaMental.
25 Jun 2020, 12:53 pm
Karamazov wrote:
Yes, that desperate need for a mytho-poetic narrative that confirms one is good, justified and... important...
"If there were no God, it would have been necessary to invent Him." -- François-Marie Arouet; a.k.a., Voltaire (1694-1778)
_________________
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