The Cult of Tradition
Greatshield17
Velociraptor
Joined: 14 Sep 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia-Kootenay Region, British Columbia
11 Jul 2020, 10:01 pm
Fnord wrote:
If there is a perfect truth, imperfect humans will never understand it.
Time to get Biblical:
"God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you."
-Exodus 3:14 DR
"Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me."
- St. John 14:6 DR
_________________
Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."
WP is the 2nd worst forum site I have ever been on.
Bradleigh
Veteran
Joined: 25 May 2008
Age: 33
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 6,669
Location: Brisbane, Australia
11 Jul 2020, 11:09 pm
Greatshield17 wrote:
However your answer does contain a bit of that same sort of view, that we human beings are only capable of gaining enough truth to get by, and may never understand moral truth fully. So that's one thing your answered touched on, the other is existentialism.
I learned about existentialism at secular college, it was presented mostly in its historical context, namely the aftermath of WWII, so the instructor gave us, sort of a militant form of the philosophy, namely, you're going take all the horrible pain and suffering of this life and use it to impose your own will on reality. To me as a Catholic, that struck me as sort of a blasphemous mockery of redemptive suffering, instead of offering up your own suffering as a form of sacrificial prayer, you instead use pain to force reality to be the way you want it to be. I'm not saying that's all that existentialism claims, or that all existentialists have this attitude or take things to these extremes. However it does seem that in practice, if not, in theory, an existentialist approaches reality, the same way an industrial modernist approaches nature or the environment. Now I've never looked closely for existentialism in the arguments and discourse of Left-wing politics, but I've always had a hunch about that left-wing politics was based off of existentialism. Your answer does seem to imply existentialism, you seem to describe truth as something that needs to be constantly extracted like a mining mineral, not something that can be approached receptively and can even be found in our own nature.
There is even more to you answer that I've noticed throughout last night and this morning, (like how, despite these two beliefs appearing to be the polar opposite of each other, you've actually managed to make them two sides of the same coin) but I'll leave it there for now, I've already given you a lot in this response. It'll be interesting to see your response and critique of what I've presented.
I learned about existentialism at secular college, it was presented mostly in its historical context, namely the aftermath of WWII, so the instructor gave us, sort of a militant form of the philosophy, namely, you're going take all the horrible pain and suffering of this life and use it to impose your own will on reality. To me as a Catholic, that struck me as sort of a blasphemous mockery of redemptive suffering, instead of offering up your own suffering as a form of sacrificial prayer, you instead use pain to force reality to be the way you want it to be. I'm not saying that's all that existentialism claims, or that all existentialists have this attitude or take things to these extremes. However it does seem that in practice, if not, in theory, an existentialist approaches reality, the same way an industrial modernist approaches nature or the environment. Now I've never looked closely for existentialism in the arguments and discourse of Left-wing politics, but I've always had a hunch about that left-wing politics was based off of existentialism. Your answer does seem to imply existentialism, you seem to describe truth as something that needs to be constantly extracted like a mining mineral, not something that can be approached receptively and can even be found in our own nature.
There is even more to you answer that I've noticed throughout last night and this morning, (like how, despite these two beliefs appearing to be the polar opposite of each other, you've actually managed to make them two sides of the same coin) but I'll leave it there for now, I've already given you a lot in this response. It'll be interesting to see your response and critique of what I've presented.
I don't know if this summarizes your thoughts, but I think that how you view the two sides as polar opposites with each other is the idea that what might be considered a moral truth can change over time. At one point in time slaves might have made sense, in another time it does not make sense, and you shouldn't look back in the past with nostalgia in regards to those, because something being more normal in the past does not mean you should not criticize a figure that was a part of that system, how else can you be sure that you don't slide backwards. And also that a lot of suffering should in general not exist, protections against anti-Semitism that came because of the atrocities that were caused by Nazi Germany do not excuse the fact that those things happened.
Using that suffering happened as a reason to make sure that sort of suffering does not happen again, is kind of like what you said about using pain to force reality to be the way we want. It is more productive than saying suffering itself is a virtue, not to glorify suffering itself but prevent more. And you extract truth like mining a mineral in that you find something like slavery as bad, and you look back to see that slavery should never have happened, which does mean you sort of be retroactive in judging the truths of the matter.
It is why you get Leftist ideals that come to terms that transgender people are valid as their identified gender, so you look back at some old movie that made fun of a transgender woman because she used to be a man and say that movie is kind of bad now. Of course it is not like the Leftists throw context of periods out of the window in just assuming that the movie was just the worst at the time it came out, not like all the people that liked it were maliciously evil, but it was regardless still kind of cruel to transgender people. Ignorance at any particular point in time and the ability to grow past that is a key aspect in my morality, the hope that with absorbing new evidence people can evolve their opinions.
Not a dig at your religion, but I think still going back to an ancient book, that was more relevant in the time it was written, stifles the ability to evolve ones ability evolve opinions, since you have to keep reading around things like not having clothes of two different fabrics, not eating shellfish, and how you should treat your slaves. The sort of things that really don't make sense in modern times, and puts you kind of at the whim of whoever gets to extract the reasons they want out that book. And people have gotten some really messed up meanings from holy scripture. I think that it is better that we as a people can keep on theorizing if old beliefs we had are still relevant, whether something brings more happiness and less suffering into the world. Because the picture we build up of the past, is rarely that accurate to what the past was, after all life is complicated, You can't explain it by just putting a statue up of someone. Just worshiping any such idol that tells you a nice story.
_________________
Through dream I travel, at lantern's call
To consume the flames of a kingdom's fall
11 Jul 2020, 11:12 pm
^^^
"I am who I am."
Do You See What's Missing Here?
Obviously, You Didn't Mean to Leave "I" Out for "I AM Who AM";
But Do See the Obvious Failure, of the Modern Bible;
Innumerable Scribes Copied it By Hand And Made
Innumerable Honest Errors Just Like this; 'It' Happens;
And of course, since they were in Control of the Media
to Copy it By Hand and Most Folks Were Illiterate; The Scribes
Could Change the Text of the Bible Over Centuries too as 'The Spirit' Moved them too.
It's Highly Unlikely they were More Proficient than you; With Your Education so far.
But Anyway; Perfect Truths Don't Come Often By Centuries of Folks Copying what
Was Originally Communicated and Changing it at Will by Innumerable Folk's Discretion too.
Obviously, this is why there are so many Contradictions of Essence in Meaning Throughout the Bible;
In Inconsistencies through and through; as Once again, anyone with Common Sense, Understands that
Real Love Never Demands Worship And Always Forgives, Where The Last Chance is always the First Chance;
In Other Words, A Real Mother's Love For Her Children; That doesn't include Torturing them Forever; Or Demanding
Worship; As Children Who are Truly Loved, Naturally Love their Parents; and don't need to be Forced into it, By
Demanding Worship at threat of Eternal Torture; Whoever Came Up with that; Again, smells like Trump
And the 'Minions of 5th Avenue' as a way of Life; Not Surprising, Trump is so widely held acceptable and
practically worshipped by the Same Folks who Take the Hook, Line, and Sinker, of truly Cult-like
Traditions; Like Pagan Hell and Eternal Non-Forgiveness; Worshipping the Dead; And
Cannibalizing Ideologies of the Dead too, in an Imaginary Wafer that 70 Percent
of Catholics DO NOT BELIEVE IN TO THE CHAGRIN OF FOLKS LIKE BISHOP BARRON.
If You ask the 70 Percent of Catholics at Most they will tell you it's a Metaphor For a Communion Of Love.
Unfortunately, Love is Not Enough, for Some Folks; And If the John Part that Says God Is Love Is Not Enough
Then Obviously God Is Not Enough; Unless they Don't Believe God Is Love; But Again, the Contradictions
Don't Get Anymore Ridiculous Than A God of Love that allows Non-Forgiving Torturing Forever for Folks
Who Misbehave.
There is always the Little Tidbit of Reality that Existence is so much Bigger than a Desert Patch of Land in the
Middle East; It's Likely that if the Little Brown Dude, Jesus, about 5 Feet Tall and a Little over 100 Pounds now
Could Come Back; He Would Be Truly Money Table Turning Over Pissed-off that folks are worshipping him
Based on the Last is the First in the Kingdom of Heaven; And on Top of that; no Doubt, NOT DOING
WHAT FOLKS SAY HE MUST DO BY TAKING THE PROMOTION OF KING OF THE UNIVERSE. People
in Heaven, Eternally Now In Terms of Love aren't impressed by Crowns and Don't accept them
Even if they are given Free.
Why; Understanding You Are Already The All Eternally Now Never Ever in Separation Eternally
Now Means You Already Have the All (God); Actually Feeling this Unity of Eternal Bliss Now,
Makes Anything of Any Other Way of 'Nobility' A Joke Like the Ocean has something
to Prove to Waves.
Smiles, My Friend, You Can't Become An 'NFL QuarterBack'
By Reading A Book, alone; It Takes Years and Years of Actual Playing Skills to do it;
And Then You Become Amazed That You Are 'the Quarterback', All Along with No Books at All.
Gospel of Thomas Verse 2, From the Dead Sea Scrolls Quoted Below, Preserved
Centuries Before Any Scribe Or 'Ghost Editor' Had the Opportunity to Change it anymore.
"2) Jesus said: He who seeks, let him not cease seeking until he finds;
and when he finds he will be troubled, and when he is troubled he will
be amazed, and he will reign over the All."
It's Worth Noting to me at least That i understand the Meaning of Every Verse.
Most Folks Think It is Just 'Word Salad', When They Read the Gospel of Thomas; All 114 Verses;
Definitely Not to Say it Is Perfect or Absolute Truth; for Then You Get In the Realm of 'Machine God' That
Is Only What Foolish Humans Create to Replace True Blessings of Nature Living Naked Within As FLoWeR
Continuing to Bloom at Best in Change Forever now; Accepting the BLeSSinGS Of THoRNS As Roses Won't
Usually Rise Without Thorns as DarK All Naturally Creates LiGHT in Terms of All Stuff Life; Even Science
Agrees...
Not Much Doubt, if the 'Little Brown Man From Galilee' Could Come Back He'd Probably
Have to Find A Theme Song By Some 'Village People' To Get The Facts STRAiGHT That "I am
What i Am, Just A Son of Man" through 'All the Conspiracy Theories" That Insist He is a
Supernatural King of the Universe;
'Who' 'the Hell' Wants That
Job; Understand Why God
Delegated The Authority to
All of Us (God) Existence Together Inseparable Eternally Now Forever...
So, In Other Words, Your Honest Mistake Improves 'The Verse' With "I AM
WHO AM." Am
is Enough,
Flavored
With Love
Am Makes Life Great;
But Just Remember, Hell
Is No Judgement When Love Truly Exists,
Eternally Forgiving Enemies Same NoW as
Neighbors Loving Them till Death Do We Part?
_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI
Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !
http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick
Greatshield17
Velociraptor
Joined: 14 Sep 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia-Kootenay Region, British Columbia
12 Jul 2020, 10:44 pm
I don't think I have time to respond to Bradleigh and aghogday tonight in whole, I'll just give a quick response to aghogday here, and maybe give a fuller reply to him tomorrow.
aghogday wrote:
^^^
"I am who I am."
Do You See What's Missing Here?
Obviously, You Didn't Mean to Leave "I" Out for "I AM Who AM";
But Do See the Obvious Failure, of the Modern Bible;
Innumerable Scribes Copied it By Hand And Made
Innumerable Honest Errors Just Like this; 'It' Happens;
And of course, since they were in Control of the Media
to Copy it By Hand and Most Folks Were Illiterate; The Scribes
Could Change the Text of the Bible Over Centuries too as 'The Spirit' Moved them too.
It's Highly Unlikely they were More Proficient than you; With Your Education so far.
But Anyway; Perfect Truths Don't Come Often By Centuries of Folks Copying what
Was Originally Communicated and Changing it at Will by Innumerable Folk's Discretion too.
Obviously, this is why there are so many Contradictions of Essence in Meaning Throughout the Bible;
In Inconsistencies through and through; as Once again, anyone with Common Sense, Understands that
Real Love Never Demands Worship And Always Forgives, Where The Last Chance is always the First Chance;
In Other Words, A Real Mother's Love For Her Children; That doesn't include Torturing them Forever; Or Demanding
Worship; As Children Who are Truly Loved, Naturally Love their Parents; and don't need to be Forced into it, By
Demanding Worship at threat of Eternal Torture; Whoever Came Up with that; Again, smells like Trump
And the 'Minions of 5th Avenue' as a way of Life; Not Surprising, Trump is so widely held acceptable and
practically worshipped by the Same Folks who Take the Hook, Line, and Sinker, of truly Cult-like
Traditions; Like Pagan Hell and Eternal Non-Forgiveness; Worshipping the Dead; And
Cannibalizing Ideologies of the Dead too, in an Imaginary Wafer that 70 Percent
of Catholics DO NOT BELIEVE IN TO THE CHAGRIN OF FOLKS LIKE BISHOP BARRON.
If You ask the 70 Percent of Catholics at Most they will tell you it's a Metaphor For a Communion Of Love.
Unfortunately, Love is Not Enough, for Some Folks; And If the John Part that Says God Is Love Is Not Enough
Then Obviously God Is Not Enough; Unless they Don't Believe God Is Love; But Again, the Contradictions
Don't Get Anymore Ridiculous Than A God of Love that allows Non-Forgiving Torturing Forever for Folks
Who Misbehave.
There is always the Little Tidbit of Reality that Existence is so much Bigger than a Desert Patch of Land in the
Middle East; It's Likely that if the Little Brown Dude, Jesus, about 5 Feet Tall and a Little over 100 Pounds now
Could Come Back; He Would Be Truly Money Table Turning Over Pissed-off that folks are worshipping him
Based on the Last is the First in the Kingdom of Heaven; And on Top of that; no Doubt, NOT DOING
WHAT FOLKS SAY HE MUST DO BY TAKING THE PROMOTION OF KING OF THE UNIVERSE. People
in Heaven, Eternally Now In Terms of Love aren't impressed by Crowns and Don't accept them
Even if they are given Free.
Why; Understanding You Are Already The All Eternally Now Never Ever in Separation Eternally
Now Means You Already Have the All (God); Actually Feeling this Unity of Eternal Bliss Now,
Makes Anything of Any Other Way of 'Nobility' A Joke Like the Ocean has something
to Prove to Waves.
Smiles, My Friend, You Can't Become An 'NFL QuarterBack'
By Reading A Book, alone; It Takes Years and Years of Actual Playing Skills to do it;
And Then You Become Amazed That You Are 'the Quarterback', All Along with No Books at All.
Gospel of Thomas Verse 2, From the Dead Sea Scrolls Quoted Below, Preserved
Centuries Before Any Scribe Or 'Ghost Editor' Had the Opportunity to Change it anymore.
"2) Jesus said: He who seeks, let him not cease seeking until he finds;
and when he finds he will be troubled, and when he is troubled he will
be amazed, and he will reign over the All."
It's Worth Noting to me at least That i understand the Meaning of Every Verse.
Most Folks Think It is Just 'Word Salad', When They Read the Gospel of Thomas; All 114 Verses;
Definitely Not to Say it Is Perfect or Absolute Truth; for Then You Get In the Realm of 'Machine God' That
Is Only What Foolish Humans Create to Replace True Blessings of Nature Living Naked Within As FLoWeR
Continuing to Bloom at Best in Change Forever now; Accepting the BLeSSinGS Of THoRNS As Roses Won't
Usually Rise Without Thorns as DarK All Naturally Creates LiGHT in Terms of All Stuff Life; Even Science
Agrees...
Not Much Doubt, if the 'Little Brown Man From Galilee' Could Come Back He'd Probably
Have to Find A Theme Song By Some 'Village People' To Get The Facts STRAiGHT That "I am
What i Am, Just A Son of Man" through 'All the Conspiracy Theories" That Insist He is a
Supernatural King of the Universe;
'Who' 'the Hell' Wants That
Job; Understand Why God
Delegated The Authority to
All of Us (God) Existence Together Inseparable Eternally Now Forever...
So, In Other Words, Your Honest Mistake Improves 'The Verse' With "I AM
WHO AM." Am
is Enough,
Flavored
With Love
Am Makes Life Great;
But Just Remember, Hell
Is No Judgement When Love Truly Exists,
Eternally Forgiving Enemies Same NoW as
Neighbors Loving Them till Death Do We Part?
"I am who I am."
Do You See What's Missing Here?
Obviously, You Didn't Mean to Leave "I" Out for "I AM Who AM";
But Do See the Obvious Failure, of the Modern Bible;
Innumerable Scribes Copied it By Hand And Made
Innumerable Honest Errors Just Like this; 'It' Happens;
And of course, since they were in Control of the Media
to Copy it By Hand and Most Folks Were Illiterate; The Scribes
Could Change the Text of the Bible Over Centuries too as 'The Spirit' Moved them too.
It's Highly Unlikely they were More Proficient than you; With Your Education so far.
But Anyway; Perfect Truths Don't Come Often By Centuries of Folks Copying what
Was Originally Communicated and Changing it at Will by Innumerable Folk's Discretion too.
Obviously, this is why there are so many Contradictions of Essence in Meaning Throughout the Bible;
In Inconsistencies through and through; as Once again, anyone with Common Sense, Understands that
Real Love Never Demands Worship And Always Forgives, Where The Last Chance is always the First Chance;
In Other Words, A Real Mother's Love For Her Children; That doesn't include Torturing them Forever; Or Demanding
Worship; As Children Who are Truly Loved, Naturally Love their Parents; and don't need to be Forced into it, By
Demanding Worship at threat of Eternal Torture; Whoever Came Up with that; Again, smells like Trump
And the 'Minions of 5th Avenue' as a way of Life; Not Surprising, Trump is so widely held acceptable and
practically worshipped by the Same Folks who Take the Hook, Line, and Sinker, of truly Cult-like
Traditions; Like Pagan Hell and Eternal Non-Forgiveness; Worshipping the Dead; And
Cannibalizing Ideologies of the Dead too, in an Imaginary Wafer that 70 Percent
of Catholics DO NOT BELIEVE IN TO THE CHAGRIN OF FOLKS LIKE BISHOP BARRON.
If You ask the 70 Percent of Catholics at Most they will tell you it's a Metaphor For a Communion Of Love.
Unfortunately, Love is Not Enough, for Some Folks; And If the John Part that Says God Is Love Is Not Enough
Then Obviously God Is Not Enough; Unless they Don't Believe God Is Love; But Again, the Contradictions
Don't Get Anymore Ridiculous Than A God of Love that allows Non-Forgiving Torturing Forever for Folks
Who Misbehave.
There is always the Little Tidbit of Reality that Existence is so much Bigger than a Desert Patch of Land in the
Middle East; It's Likely that if the Little Brown Dude, Jesus, about 5 Feet Tall and a Little over 100 Pounds now
Could Come Back; He Would Be Truly Money Table Turning Over Pissed-off that folks are worshipping him
Based on the Last is the First in the Kingdom of Heaven; And on Top of that; no Doubt, NOT DOING
WHAT FOLKS SAY HE MUST DO BY TAKING THE PROMOTION OF KING OF THE UNIVERSE. People
in Heaven, Eternally Now In Terms of Love aren't impressed by Crowns and Don't accept them
Even if they are given Free.
Why; Understanding You Are Already The All Eternally Now Never Ever in Separation Eternally
Now Means You Already Have the All (God); Actually Feeling this Unity of Eternal Bliss Now,
Makes Anything of Any Other Way of 'Nobility' A Joke Like the Ocean has something
to Prove to Waves.
Smiles, My Friend, You Can't Become An 'NFL QuarterBack'
By Reading A Book, alone; It Takes Years and Years of Actual Playing Skills to do it;
And Then You Become Amazed That You Are 'the Quarterback', All Along with No Books at All.
Gospel of Thomas Verse 2, From the Dead Sea Scrolls Quoted Below, Preserved
Centuries Before Any Scribe Or 'Ghost Editor' Had the Opportunity to Change it anymore.
"2) Jesus said: He who seeks, let him not cease seeking until he finds;
and when he finds he will be troubled, and when he is troubled he will
be amazed, and he will reign over the All."
It's Worth Noting to me at least That i understand the Meaning of Every Verse.
Most Folks Think It is Just 'Word Salad', When They Read the Gospel of Thomas; All 114 Verses;
Definitely Not to Say it Is Perfect or Absolute Truth; for Then You Get In the Realm of 'Machine God' That
Is Only What Foolish Humans Create to Replace True Blessings of Nature Living Naked Within As FLoWeR
Continuing to Bloom at Best in Change Forever now; Accepting the BLeSSinGS Of THoRNS As Roses Won't
Usually Rise Without Thorns as DarK All Naturally Creates LiGHT in Terms of All Stuff Life; Even Science
Agrees...
Not Much Doubt, if the 'Little Brown Man From Galilee' Could Come Back He'd Probably
Have to Find A Theme Song By Some 'Village People' To Get The Facts STRAiGHT That "I am
What i Am, Just A Son of Man" through 'All the Conspiracy Theories" That Insist He is a
Supernatural King of the Universe;
'Who' 'the Hell' Wants That
Job; Understand Why God
Delegated The Authority to
All of Us (God) Existence Together Inseparable Eternally Now Forever...
So, In Other Words, Your Honest Mistake Improves 'The Verse' With "I AM
WHO AM." Am
is Enough,
Flavored
With Love
Am Makes Life Great;
But Just Remember, Hell
Is No Judgement When Love Truly Exists,
Eternally Forgiving Enemies Same NoW as
Neighbors Loving Them till Death Do We Part?
The New Testament has actually been shown to be the most reliable of ancient documents:
I highly encourage you to watch the full episode, there are a lot interesting thing in it, although it's actually quite long.
_________________
Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."
WP is the 2nd worst forum site I have ever been on.
Greatshield17
Velociraptor
Joined: 14 Sep 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia-Kootenay Region, British Columbia
14 Jul 2020, 12:24 am
Bradleigh wrote:
I don't know if this summarizes your thoughts, but I think that how you view the two sides as polar opposites with each other is the idea that what might be considered a moral truth can change over time.
I'm not sure whether you picked it up or not was, but the polar opposite I was referring to was the opposition between; on the one hand, human beings being incapable of grasping moral truth fully; and on the other hand moral truth not being something one conforms oneself to, but rather something that is subject to extraction by human force.
Bradleigh wrote:
Using that suffering happened as a reason to make sure that sort of suffering does not happen again, is kind of like what you said about using pain to force reality to be the way we want. It is more productive than saying suffering itself is a virtue, not to glorify suffering itself but prevent more. And you extract truth like mining a mineral in that you find something like slavery as bad, and you look back to see that slavery should never have happened, which does mean you sort of be retroactive in judging the truths of the matter.
Suffering is not a good thing in and of itself, if it were, there would be suffering in Heaven; the wounds of Christ and the Martyrs will be present in Heaven, but suffering won't. And glorifying suffering, be it as a martyr or as a victim, does not make something good or evil. Suffering can reveal a moral truth, but reason needs to be applied to figure out the morality of situation. Sometimes the removal of suffering can cause individuals to be more prone to immoral behaviour, and thus one needs consider how big the risk is in removing the suffering.
Bradleigh wrote:
Not a dig at your religion, but I think still going back to an ancient book, that was more relevant in the time it was written, stifles the ability to evolve ones ability evolve opinions, since you have to keep reading around things like not having clothes of two different fabrics, not eating shellfish, and how you should treat your slaves. The sort of things that really don't make sense in modern times, and puts you kind of at the whim of whoever gets to extract the reasons they want out that book. And people have gotten some really messed up meanings from holy scripture. I think that it is better that we as a people can keep on theorizing if old beliefs we had are still relevant, whether something brings more happiness and less suffering into the world. Because the picture we build up of the past, is rarely that accurate to what the past was, after all life is complicated, You can't explain it by just putting a statue up of someone. Just worshiping any such idol that tells you a nice story.
As I've mentioned before it's not just Sacred Scripture, it's Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium; there plenty of other books out there that help explain the Church's moral teaching, some are simple and straight to the point, others go over a moral truth in fine detail to help fully and reasonably explain why something is right or wrong. (I'm thinking of the Summa Theologica) The Church teaches that God writes the moral law into every human being's interior, one can, by the simple use of reason, figure out the entire moral law without having ever heard anything of the Catholic Church. The Ten Commandments weren't written because everyone needed to know what was right and wrong, they were written because a significant portion of the Israelite population needed to have the moral law spelled out to them.
_________________
Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."
WP is the 2nd worst forum site I have ever been on.
Bradleigh
Veteran
Joined: 25 May 2008
Age: 33
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 6,669
Location: Brisbane, Australia
14 Jul 2020, 1:01 am
Greatshield17 wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
I don't know if this summarizes your thoughts, but I think that how you view the two sides as polar opposites with each other is the idea that what might be considered a moral truth can change over time.
I'm not sure whether you picked it up or not was, but the polar opposite I was referring to was the opposition between; on the one hand, human beings being incapable of grasping moral truth fully; and on the other hand moral truth not being something one conforms oneself to, but rather something that is subject to extraction by human force.
There is no full stop moral truth, it is only something we can evolve as we expand our understanding and decide for ourselves what is or is not morally right. It is when you put in a bookmark and rigidly hold something as virtuous while not allowing your understanding to budge, that you can prevent your understanding from growing and at risk of creating injustices that may not have needed to happen.
Of course, there are some lessons one needs to learn from the past, and being able to discuss those while extracting meaning is important. But I do really think that glorifying them as untouchable and morphing them into something they never were, such as building a statue to worship and buying myths made up about that person, that we can even have the wrong lessons learned.
Things should be morally right because they ultimately reduce suffering and make others happy, not because a book translated through unreliable means told you so. Humans are smarter than that.
_________________
Through dream I travel, at lantern's call
To consume the flames of a kingdom's fall
14 Jul 2020, 9:14 am
Bradleigh wrote:
There is no full stop moral truth, it is only something we can evolve as we expand our understanding and decide for ourselves what is or is not morally right. It is when you put in a bookmark and rigidly hold something as virtuous while not allowing your understanding to budge, that you can prevent your understanding from growing and at risk of creating injustices that may not have needed to happen.
Morality was invented by humans, and has morphed and evolved through the ages. While it was once considered "immoral" to let homosexuals, foreigners, and people who practiced sorcery to live, it is now considered "immoral" to murder them. While it was once considered an acts of "morally correct" to torture and main someone into changing their religion, it is now considered morally reprehensible to do so by most people.Bradleigh wrote:
Of course, there are some lessons one needs to learn from the past, and being able to discuss those while extracting meaning is important. But I do really think that glorifying them as untouchable and morphing them into something they never were, such as building a statue to worship and buying myths made up about that person, that we can even have the wrong lessons learned.
Worshiping people, living or dead, or their images is clearly defined as Idolatry throughout the Bible, yet the Roman Catholic Church still encourages and promotes such practices.Bradleigh wrote:
Things should be morally right because they ultimately reduce suffering and make others happy...
Jeremy Bentham's "Utilitarian" ideal -- the greatest joy (reduction in suffering) to the greatest number.Bradleigh wrote:
... not because a book translated through unreliable means told you so. Humans are smarter than that.
Unhappily, humans have not always been that way, and many humans today would still rather be told what to think, say, and do by a man in a bathrobe standing on a balcony while wearing a funny hat.
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Bradleigh
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14 Jul 2020, 9:59 am
Fnord wrote:
Morality was invented by humans, and has morphed and evolved through the ages. While it was once considered "immoral" to let homosexuals, foreigners, and people who practiced sorcery to live, it is now considered "immoral" to murder them. While it was once considered an acts of "morally correct" to torture and main someone into changing their religion, it is now considered morally reprehensible to do so by most people.
One of the reasons that people currently like Bernie Sanders is that he has had a long history of championing for things that have now started to be seen as morally responsible to do so, back when it was pretty unpopular to do so, such as supporting gay rights.
A particular interesting video I watched a little while back was from an interview he did in the 80s with a couple of punk (the cultural kind) teenagers, back when it would have been seen as reasonable to consider them as unruly and not really insightful. But Bernie talked to them like they were intelligent people and was serious in understanding the sort of things they were concerned about, and would be surprised by how insightful the whole thing is that you would only get if you rather than passed judgement with a couple of mall punks and were earnest in asking what they think, something I can't imagine would have been the popular reaction.
Not saying that to say that Bernie Sanders is some idol of what is right, I honestly think that it is unfair to hold anyone to those standards, but I can see that he is a man who has often been seen as a few steps out of the reach of what the moral center is considered, but many people hoped that at this time in America he would be in line. His healthcare policies are hardly extreme in other parts of the world.
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Through dream I travel, at lantern's call
To consume the flames of a kingdom's fall
14 Jul 2020, 10:06 am
Do you want to run for public office? Don't take the moral middle-ground, but express a few ideas that reinforce the "Us versus Them" mindset, and call it "Upholding Morality".
For instance, correcting the root causes of criminal behavior might just be the most moral thing to be done in the fight against crime, but if a candidate declares that a "Get Tough" stance of stricter laws, greater enforcement, and longer prison sentences is a call to the "Highest Morality", then he or she is almost sure to win the election.
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Greatshield17
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14 Jul 2020, 12:38 pm
Fnord wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
There is no full stop moral truth, it is only something we can evolve as we expand our understanding and decide for ourselves what is or is not morally right. It is when you put in a bookmark and rigidly hold something as virtuous while not allowing your understanding to budge, that you can prevent your understanding from growing and at risk of creating injustices that may not have needed to happen.
Morality was invented by humans, and has morphed and evolved through the ages. While it was once considered "immoral" to let homosexuals, foreigners, and people who practiced sorcery to live, it is now considered "immoral" to murder them. While it was once considered an acts of "morally correct" to torture and main someone into changing their religion, it is now considered morally reprehensible to do so by most people.Bradleigh wrote:
Of course, there are some lessons one needs to learn from the past, and being able to discuss those while extracting meaning is important. But I do really think that glorifying them as untouchable and morphing them into something they never were, such as building a statue to worship and buying myths made up about that person, that we can even have the wrong lessons learned.
Worshiping people, living or dead, or their images is clearly defined as Idolatry throughout the Bible, yet the Roman Catholic Church still encourages and promotes such practices.Claims morality is a human construct, then makes a distorted and false claim, based off of a mere human construct.
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Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."
WP is the 2nd worst forum site I have ever been on.
Greatshield17
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14 Jul 2020, 12:42 pm
Bradleigh wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
I don't know if this summarizes your thoughts, but I think that how you view the two sides as polar opposites with each other is the idea that what might be considered a moral truth can change over time.
I'm not sure whether you picked it up or not was, but the polar opposite I was referring to was the opposition between; on the one hand, human beings being incapable of grasping moral truth fully; and on the other hand moral truth not being something one conforms oneself to, but rather something that is subject to extraction by human force.
There is no full stop moral truth, it is only something we can evolve as we expand our understanding and decide for ourselves what is or is not morally right. It is when you put in a bookmark and rigidly hold something as virtuous while not allowing your understanding to budge, that you can prevent your understanding from growing and at risk of creating injustices that may not have needed to happen.
Of course, there are some lessons one needs to learn from the past, and being able to discuss those while extracting meaning is important. But I do really think that glorifying them as untouchable and morphing them into something they never were, such as building a statue to worship and buying myths made up about that person, that we can even have the wrong lessons learned.
Things should be morally right because they ultimately reduce suffering and make others happy, not because a book translated through unreliable means told you so. Humans are smarter than that.
I told you, morality isn't based off of the Bible, the Bible merely communicates and emphasizes morality. Morality is written into human nature itself.
Do you believe that morality can contradict itself?
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Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."
WP is the 2nd worst forum site I have ever been on.
Greatshield17
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14 Jul 2020, 12:52 pm
Bradleigh wrote:
A particular interesting video I watched a little while back was from an interview he did in the 80s with a couple of punk (the cultural kind) teenagers, back when it would have been seen as reasonable to consider them as unruly and not really insightful. But Bernie talked to them like they were intelligent people and was serious in understanding the sort of things they were concerned about, and would be surprised by how insightful the whole thing is that you would only get if you rather than passed judgement with a couple of mall punks and were earnest in asking what they think, something I can't imagine would have been the popular reaction.
That right there is a good example of the Catholic position of morality being written on the interior of every human being. For a Catholic, reasoning with punk teenagers, in and of itself, is perfectly acceptable because punk teenagers are human beings and thus, endowed with reason and the moral law. However, if we take your position of moral beliefs evolving, I'm not saying you do or should hold to this particular position but; if we take the position the moral beliefs evolve, Sanders would have been out of line, for engaging in an act that wasn't considered morally acceptable yet.
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Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."
WP is the 2nd worst forum site I have ever been on.
Greatshield17
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Location: Columbia-Kootenay Region, British Columbia
19 Jul 2020, 2:28 pm
vermontsavant wrote:
The rioters burned a statue of the virgin Mary in Boston today.
Just thought I'd stop by and post this:
Ave Maria!
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Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."
WP is the 2nd worst forum site I have ever been on.
old_comedywriter
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