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Why do people still support Trump?

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ironpony
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11 Aug 2020, 3:03 pm

I think the reason people still support Trump is because Biden is worse, so it's like choosing between two you hate, so you might as well pick the one you hate less?

But this is a problem with American elections, is that they are designed so you can only vote between two candidates. Why can't they have the option of voting between say five candidates, election time, for example?

When designing the American election system who thought that limiting it it only two candidates was a good idea?



ASPartOfMe
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11 Aug 2020, 5:45 pm

ironpony wrote:
I think the reason people still support Trump is because Biden is worse, so it's like choosing between two you hate, so you might as well pick the one you hate less?

But this is a problem with American elections, is that they are designed so you can only vote between two candidates. Why can't they have the option of voting between say five candidates, election time, for example?

When designing the American election system who thought that limiting it it only two candidates was a good idea?

The constitution does not limit it to two candidates. There are "third party" candidates and Americans have the option of writing in a candidate.


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ironpony
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11 Aug 2020, 5:53 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
ironpony wrote:
I think the reason people still support Trump is because Biden is worse, so it's like choosing between two you hate, so you might as well pick the one you hate less?

But this is a problem with American elections, is that they are designed so you can only vote between two candidates. Why can't they have the option of voting between say five candidates, election time, for example?

When designing the American election system who thought that limiting it it only two candidates was a good idea?

The constitution does not limit it to two candidates. There are "third party" candidates and Americans have the option of writing in a candidate.


Oh well how come these third party candidates are never talkeda about then in the media?



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12 Aug 2020, 2:51 am

Why do people still stand behind Obama? Why do they still support Biden? It's a matter of personal choice.


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auntblabby
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12 Aug 2020, 3:45 am

ironpony wrote:
Oh well how come these third party candidates are never talkeda about then in the media?

follow the money. look at who owns our media, it is one or the other party.



Brictoria
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12 Aug 2020, 3:54 am

auntblabby wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh well how come these third party candidates are never talkeda about then in the media?

follow the money. look at who owns our media, it is one or the other party.


I would have suggested it's more of a "chicken and egg" issue:

How do you get media attention -> have political power.
How do you gain political power -> Through media attention.



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12 Aug 2020, 6:38 am

There are quite a lot of factors at play behind the two-party domination in the USA, but I think blaming the media is a red herring.

In decreasing order of importance:

1) the US uses variations upon “first past the post” rather than proportional representation. This naturally makes it difficult for other parties to gain support as most people prefer to vote for a realistic winner

2) the US minor parties are disorganised. Their candidates tend to be complete lunatics (Gary Johnson was a welcome exception) and their supporters prioritise adherence towards bizarre ideologies. They have no local ground game and are focused almost entirely on the Presidency, rather than on cultivating grassroots supports.

3) Regardless of whether you like them, the two main parties are fundamentally competent organisers and have deep and broad support.

Even Teddy Roosevelt couldn’t win as a third party candidate. What chance do the nobody lunatics running third party in 2020 have?

My advice for third parties in the US:

- Focus in building local support

- Focus in bread and butter issues rather than fringe issues that are only relevant to your kooky dogma. People vote for better schools and healthcare, not for abstract ideas about the deficit or Israel.

- in fact do away with the kooky dogma altogether. If all people know about you is that you are opposed to the driver’s license or that you are anti-vaccine then they will not take you seriously.

- rather than complaining on the internet, get out there and campaign. Knock on doors to get yourself elected to the city council, then statewide office, then federal office. Don’t jump straight to federal office because nobody will care about you.



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12 Aug 2020, 4:29 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
There are quite a lot of factors at play behind the two-party domination in the USA, but I think blaming the media is a red herring.

In decreasing order of importance:

1) the US uses variations upon “first past the post” rather than proportional representation. This naturally makes it difficult for other parties to gain support as most people prefer to vote for a realistic winner

2) the US minor parties are disorganised. Their candidates tend to be complete lunatics (Gary Johnson was a welcome exception) and their supporters prioritise adherence towards bizarre ideologies. They have no local ground game and are focused almost entirely on the Presidency, rather than on cultivating grassroots supports.

3) Regardless of whether you like them, the two main parties are fundamentally competent organisers and have deep and broad support.

Even Teddy Roosevelt couldn’t win as a third party candidate. What chance do the nobody lunatics running third party in 2020 have?

My advice for third parties in the US:

- Focus in building local support

- Focus in bread and butter issues rather than fringe issues that are only relevant to your kooky dogma. People vote for better schools and healthcare, not for abstract ideas about the deficit or Israel.

- in fact do away with the kooky dogma altogether. If all people know about you is that you are opposed to the driver’s license or that you are anti-vaccine then they will not take you seriously.

- rather than complaining on the internet, get out there and campaign. Knock on doors to get yourself elected to the city council, then statewide office, then federal office. Don’t jump straight to federal office because nobody will care about you.

You missed the biggest reason of all, with first past the post, a third party will split the vote and hand the White House to the one they don't want to win. So you have to join the party that's closest to you. Trump had the means to go head to head with them as a third party, but he'd have just split the vote and handed the Democrats the win on a silver platter. So he had to join the Republicans (and they had to take him even though they didn't want to) and he had to fight his way through their primary.



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12 Aug 2020, 4:46 pm

Drake wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
There are quite a lot of factors at play behind the two-party domination in the USA, but I think blaming the media is a red herring.

In decreasing order of importance:

1) the US uses variations upon “first past the post” rather than proportional representation. This naturally makes it difficult for other parties to gain support as most people prefer to vote for a realistic winner

2) the US minor parties are disorganised. Their candidates tend to be complete lunatics (Gary Johnson was a welcome exception) and their supporters prioritise adherence towards bizarre ideologies. They have no local ground game and are focused almost entirely on the Presidency, rather than on cultivating grassroots supports.

3) Regardless of whether you like them, the two main parties are fundamentally competent organisers and have deep and broad support.

.

You missed the biggest reason of all, with first past the post, a third party will split the vote and hand the White House to the one they don't want to win. So you have to join the party that's closest to you.

Added emphasis.



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12 Aug 2020, 4:55 pm

ironpony wrote:
I think the reason people still support Trump is because Biden is worse, so it's like choosing between two you hate, so you might as well pick the one you hate less?





What you really mean is that "some people still support Trump because they have an hysterical delusion that Biden is as bad, or even worse".

Biden might be a run of the mill bad politician, but (like Vice President Pence) he cant be "worse than Trump".

Biden did not put a gun into W Bush's mouth and force Bush to invade Iraq. So this stuff about Biden being "war crminal" is nonsense. And Biden has been in public life for decades, but never violated the emoluments clause once. While trump violated it the moment he was sworn into his first political office (which also happens to be the highest office). So there is no way Biden could be anywhere near as corrupt as Trump, much less worse.

As to the two party system, the system of splinter parties that is the norm on the continent of Europe does has it's attractions, but I doubt it would have made a difference with the present choice of candidates.

In Europe the many splinter parties tend to clump together to form ad hoc "coalition governments" which pretty much act like the two large permanent parties that the UK and the USA have.

So if we had a splinter party system then AOC would be right about she and Biden would "be in two different political parties". But those two parties would probably tend to form coalitions with each other that would still resemble the American Democrat party (A center right pol like Biden teeming up with a more far left pol like Harris). And a Trump type might form a coalition with a far right party leader like Pence to form his coalition government.



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12 Aug 2020, 5:11 pm

My husband told me how rich we have gotten because of stimulus checks and he is going to be sending out another another but this time on a debit card. I told my husband we shall vote for him for making us rich and he was like "hell no." I was only kidding. It would be stupid to vote for him just because he sent out money to people and I think he is only doing that to gain popularity again and to win votes.


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12 Aug 2020, 7:24 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
ironpony wrote:
I think the reason people still support Trump is because Biden is worse, so it's like choosing between two you hate, so you might as well pick the one you hate less?



What you really mean is that "some people still support Trump because they have an hysterical delusion that Biden is as bad, or even worse".

The complaint about Democrats is that they don't care about middle / working class people.

They have no substantial policies for these people, except, tax increases, and pay cuts from increased free trade deals and illegal alien/foreign competition.

Trump acts like he cares.

So, Trump comes across as better.

He's at least acting like he's doing something for these people.

Image


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12 Aug 2020, 7:45 pm

Gods know I'm not a Trump supporter but actually my biggest complaint about Democrats is that they don't really care about minorities and women as much as they claim they do. They always make promises to us that they never keep, and if they truly cared about women's rights they would not be using misogynistic insults on Trump's wife by calling Melania a slut on Facebook. It's hypocrisy in my opinion.

And both Republicans and Democrats are still largely controlled by rich old white men. No offense to any rich old white men here on WP.


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12 Aug 2020, 8:40 pm

DeathEmperor413 wrote:
Gods know I'm not a Trump supporter but actually my biggest complaint about Democrats is that they don't really care about minorities and women as much as they claim they do. They always make promises to us that they never keep, and if they truly cared about women's rights they would not be using misogynistic insults on Trump's wife by calling Melania a slut on Facebook. It's hypocrisy in my opinion.

And both Republicans and Democrats are still largely controlled by rich old white men. No offense to any rich old white men here on WP.


I'd suggest a large part of the problem is that people treat politics as a career, rather than having a career outside of politics and then entering politics.

In the former, they are separating themselves from what "ordinary" people experience and so have a rather distorted understanding of what people want, or how their actions will impact on those people. In the latter case, they have an understanding of what others outside politics experience, and so go in with a greater understanding of what is "needed" by people with a similar background.

Theoretically, requiring candidates to have a cetain number of years in a trade\industry\business outside of a political party, and limiting the number of years for which they can be a member of a government would help to turn politicians actions back towards what would be best for the community, rather than what is best for themselves.



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12 Aug 2020, 8:50 pm

I also think that candidates on both sides are basically convincing their supporters to hate the things these politicians pretend to hate. It feels to me like they really are trying to start a war with all this craziness.


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13 Aug 2020, 12:53 am

my esteem for my fellow working class folk has gone down due to the fact that so many of them seem to think that trumpolini cares for them and has actually done something for them, when i fact he couldn't care less and he has done less than nothing for the working class, actually making things worse for them.