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magz
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27 Jul 2020, 7:22 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I hated his foreign policy, which is the only thing I care about regarding the US president.

To me, his support for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and his general sympathy to radical Islamist movements, was very controversial and unjustified, calling the army's coup d'état as "undemocratic" (he failed to see the 10s of millions in the streets who were cheering FOR the coup).

Egypt today would have been in a much worse state if Morsi and his cronies kept ruling (hint: another ISIS-like state, pyramids bombed).

https://constructionreviewonline.com/20 ... n-project/

I won't pretend I understand all the Middle East factions and issues.
What in your opinion could have been done better? What in your opinion could be done better now?


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27 Jul 2020, 7:50 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
The 22nd amendment appears to say you cannot be ELECTED for more than two terms

However, a former two term president could be Speaker of the House, and assume the presidency and be president for a total of 12 years?

Where is this 10 year limit coming from?

"Section 1. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice[/b], and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once. But this Article shall not apply to any person holding the office of President when this Article was proposed by the Congress, and shall not prevent any person who may be holding the office of President, or acting as President, during the term within which this Article becomes operative from holding the office of President or acting as President during the remainder of such term"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-se ... nstitution


You just answered your own question. Person A is the Potus. He dies in office one day short of the two year mark. So person B takes over as POTUS, and serves the remainder of person A's term (two years plus a day). Then person B runs for POTUS and wins. And then person B serves for four years, but then person B cant run a second time. So person B is only allowed to serve six years. Not even a full eight years allowed to most.

If person A died two years plus a day into his term, then person B would have served a hair less than two years. Would be able to run and win, and then after serving that four year term, he could run again for a second term, and might win again, and serve a second term. Thus person B would serve four years plus four years plus the hair less than two years, which would equal a hair less than ten years. Just what you are saying here. So thats how ten years is the limit.



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27 Jul 2020, 9:07 am

naturalplastic wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
The 22nd amendment appears to say you cannot be ELECTED for more than two terms

However, a former two term president could be Speaker of the House, and assume the presidency and be president for a total of 12 years?

Where is this 10 year limit coming from?

"Section 1. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice[/b], and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once. But this Article shall not apply to any person holding the office of President when this Article was proposed by the Congress, and shall not prevent any person who may be holding the office of President, or acting as President, during the term within which this Article becomes operative from holding the office of President or acting as President during the remainder of such term"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-se ... nstitution


You just answered your own question. Person A is the Potus. He dies in office one day short of the two year mark. So person B takes over as POTUS, and serves the remainder of person A's term (two years plus a day). Then person B runs for POTUS and wins. And then person B serves for four years, but then person B cant run a second time. So person B is only allowed to serve six years. Not even a full eight years allowed to most.

If person A died two years plus a day into his term, then person B would have served a hair less than two years. Would be able to run and win, and then after serving that four year term, he could run again for a second term, and might win again, and serve a second term. Thus person B would serve four years plus four years plus the hair less than two years, which would equal a hair less than ten years. Just what you are saying here. So thats how ten years is the limit.

What about this ?

1) Obama is immediately appointed to replace the elected VP.
2) Biden immediately resigns.
3) Obama assumes presidency.
5) Obama can be president for a total of 12 years?

It seems like there is NO LIMIT to how many years a person can be president.


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27 Jul 2020, 9:14 am

Hillary would never tolerate that.



naturalplastic
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27 Jul 2020, 9:18 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
The 22nd amendment appears to say you cannot be ELECTED for more than two terms

However, a former two term president could be Speaker of the House, and assume the presidency and be president for a total of 12 years?

Where is this 10 year limit coming from?

"Section 1. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice[/b], and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once. But this Article shall not apply to any person holding the office of President when this Article was proposed by the Congress, and shall not prevent any person who may be holding the office of President, or acting as President, during the term within which this Article becomes operative from holding the office of President or acting as President during the remainder of such term"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-se ... nstitution


You just answered your own question. Person A is the Potus. He dies in office one day short of the two year mark. So person B takes over as POTUS, and serves the remainder of person A's term (two years plus a day). Then person B runs for POTUS and wins. And then person B serves for four years, but then person B cant run a second time. So person B is only allowed to serve six years. Not even a full eight years allowed to most.

If person A died two years plus a day into his term, then person B would have served a hair less than two years. Would be able to run and win, and then after serving that four year term, he could run again for a second term, and might win again, and serve a second term. Thus person B would serve four years plus four years plus the hair less than two years, which would equal a hair less than ten years. Just what you are saying here. So thats how ten years is the limit.

What about this ?

1) Obama is immediately appointed to replace the elected VP.
2) Biden immediately resigns.
3) Obama assumes presidency.
5) Obama can be president for a total of 12 years?

It seems like there is NO LIMIT to how many years a person can be president.


The constitution forbids anyone who is not qualified to be POTUS to be VP. Since Obama has already served two terms he is now forbidden to be POTUS, ergo he also forbidden to be VP. Ergo your step one is already forbidden, ergo none of what follows would be possible under the law.



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27 Jul 2020, 9:20 am

naturalplastic wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
The 22nd amendment appears to say you cannot be ELECTED for more than two terms

However, a former two term president could be Speaker of the House, and assume the presidency and be president for a total of 12 years?

Where is this 10 year limit coming from?

"Section 1. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice[/b], and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once. But this Article shall not apply to any person holding the office of President when this Article was proposed by the Congress, and shall not prevent any person who may be holding the office of President, or acting as President, during the term within which this Article becomes operative from holding the office of President or acting as President during the remainder of such term"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-se ... nstitution


You just answered your own question. Person A is the Potus. He dies in office one day short of the two year mark. So person B takes over as POTUS, and serves the remainder of person A's term (two years plus a day). Then person B runs for POTUS and wins. And then person B serves for four years, but then person B cant run a second time. So person B is only allowed to serve six years. Not even a full eight years allowed to most.

If person A died two years plus a day into his term, then person B would have served a hair less than two years. Would be able to run and win, and then after serving that four year term, he could run again for a second term, and might win again, and serve a second term. Thus person B would serve four years plus four years plus the hair less than two years, which would equal a hair less than ten years. Just what you are saying here. So thats how ten years is the limit.

What about this ?

1) Obama is immediately appointed to replace the elected VP.
2) Biden immediately resigns.
3) Obama assumes presidency.
5) Obama can be president for a total of 12 years?

It seems like there is NO LIMIT to how many years a person can be president.


The constitution forbids anyone who is not qualified to be POTUS to be VP. Since Obama has already served two terms he is now forbidden to be POTUS, ergo he also forbidden to be VP. Ergo your step one is already forbidden, ergo none of what follows would be possible under the law.

That does not appear accurate.

What was cited is a person cannot be ELECTED as VP if they cannot be ELECTED as president.

The scenario I suggested is about an APPOINTMENT to VP, not an election.

(that is why I bolded all the "elected" words in my first post)


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27 Jul 2020, 11:46 am

I assumed that everyone knew that a president cant serve more than two terms. Was surprised that folks have to have that fact that I knew since gradeschool explained to them!

But you're going way beyond...and are trying to find arcane loopholes in the law.

Okay lets take this for a ride.

So..lets say Obama came out of retirement, and went back into politics, and ran for the house of representatives, and not only wins in the next election, but becomes became Speaker of the House.

And lets say either guy won the next presidential: say Trump. Trump starts his second term. But then Trump chokes on a cheeseburger and dies,and then shortly after Pence drowns. Then the presidency would go to the Speaker, which would be Obama. And lets say that both of these tragedies happened in the first month of the second Trump administraion. So yes, I suppose that in theory Obama could serve as POTUS for the remaining almost four years of what would have been the Trump administration. But he wouldnt be able to run for POTUS again after THAT.

But your answer is going to be...well... then another Democrat could run, and might win, and then fire his running mate once he/she took office, and then appoint Obama as his VP, and then resign, and then Obama would serve another four years as POTUS. But thats too convoluted and contrived to actually happen.



Last edited by naturalplastic on 27 Jul 2020, 1:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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27 Jul 2020, 11:52 am

The 22nd Amendment explicitly prevents a person from serving more than two Presidential terms.

Except if a person serves less than 2 years of an unelected Presidential term.



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27 Jul 2020, 12:59 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
The 22nd Amendment explicitly prevents a person from serving more than two Presidential terms.

Except if a person serves less than 2 years of an unelected Presidential term.

The 22nd amendment prevents a person from being *elected* for more than 2 terms.

However, it appears to be silent as to whether a person can serve more than 2 terms through succession or appointment.


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27 Jul 2020, 1:45 pm

Read the whole text.

It states that a unelected person serving 2 years or more of a term has fully served a term as if elected. It counts towards the two-term limit.



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27 Jul 2020, 4:20 pm

magz wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I hated his foreign policy, which is the only thing I care about regarding the US president.

To me, his support for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and his general sympathy to radical Islamist movements, was very controversial and unjustified, calling the army's coup d'état as "undemocratic" (he failed to see the 10s of millions in the streets who were cheering FOR the coup).

Egypt today would have been in a much worse state if Morsi and his cronies kept ruling (hint: another ISIS-like state, pyramids bombed).

https://constructionreviewonline.com/20 ... n-project/

I won't pretend I understand all the Middle East factions and issues.
What in your opinion could have been done better? What in your opinion could be done better now?



Back then in this particular scenario? Doing nothing would have been better.



magz
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27 Jul 2020, 5:02 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
magz wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I hated his foreign policy, which is the only thing I care about regarding the US president.

To me, his support for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and his general sympathy to radical Islamist movements, was very controversial and unjustified, calling the army's coup d'état as "undemocratic" (he failed to see the 10s of millions in the streets who were cheering FOR the coup).

Egypt today would have been in a much worse state if Morsi and his cronies kept ruling (hint: another ISIS-like state, pyramids bombed).

https://constructionreviewonline.com/20 ... n-project/

I won't pretend I understand all the Middle East factions and issues.
What in your opinion could have been done better? What in your opinion could be done better now?

Back then in this particular scenario? Doing nothing would have been better.

I guess it's surprisingly often the case in that region. But the gas.


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28 Jul 2020, 12:30 am

naturalplastic wrote:
I assumed that everyone knew that a president cant serve more than two terms. Was surprised that folks have to have that fact that I knew since gradeschool explained to them!

I am dismayed but not surprised. I see basic constitutional concepts such as free speech and separation of powers misunderstood all the time. The reason civics has not been a priority for schools for long time.
Forgotten Purpose: Civics Education in Public Schools - National Education Association
Quote:
One of the primary reasons our nation’s founders envisioned a vast public education system was to prepare youth to be active participants in our system of self-government. The responsibilities of each citizen were assumed to go far beyond casting a vote; protecting the common good would require developing students’ critical thinking and debate skills, along with strong civic virtues.

Blind devotion to the state or its leaders would never be enough. Rather, being American was something to be learned and carried out.

“I share my own experience of having lived in Eastern Europe—where in some places it was dangerous to criticize the government—to help my students understand and prepare to defend the freedoms we have in America,” says educator Toni Simovski. His family emigrated from Macedonia and Simovski served as a translator for the U.S. military before becoming an award-winning high school civics teacher in Dearborn, Mich.

He requires students to “see civics in action” at school board and city council meetings, engage in local issues through letter-writing campaigns, conduct interviews with local officeholders, or host members of the Michigan legislature in their classroom.

Unfortunately, such a rigorous civics education is not available to all students.

Until the 1960s, it was common for American high school students to have three separate courses in civics and government. But civics offerings were slashed as the curriculum narrowed over the ensuing decades, and lost further ground to “core subjects” under the NCLB-era standardized testing regime.

It’s Not an Exaggeration to Say that Civics Education is in Crisis.
Only 25 percent of U.S. students reach the “proficient” standard on the NAEP Civics Assessment. White, wealthy students are four to six times as likely as Black and Hispanic students from low-income households to exceed that level. Here’s why: Students in wealthier public school districts are far more likely to receive high-quality civics education than students in low-income and majority-minority schools.

Contrary to Popular Belief, the Problem isn’t that Students Receive No Civics Education.
All 50 states require some form of instruction in civics and/or government, and nearly 90 percent of students take at least one civics class. But too often, factual book learning is not reinforced with experience-based learning opportunities like community service, guided debates, critical discussion of current events, and simulations of democratic processes.

But Many of the Popular Reform Proposals are Based on Misconceptions.
Even states that require civics education rarely take best practices into account. Since 2015, several states have required students to pass the U.S. citizenship exam before graduating high school. But putting so much attention on rote memorization actually diminishes the likelihood that students will develop more meaningful civic skills.

What We Can Do
Provide formal instruction in U.S. government, history, and democracy that involves more than rote memorization of facts and procedures. Jennifer Reidel’s students at Lyn den High School in Lynden, Wash., research, write and debate their own bills, study recent Supreme Court cases, and hold a mock trial. Other required activities include volunteering in the community.

Incorporate discussion of current local, national, and international issues in the classroom, particularly those that young people view as important to their lives. Nancy Peterson, who teaches American Government at Gilbert High School in Gilbert, Iowa, “designed her class from the student perspective.” Her students introduce bills proposing the class colors, flower or song. They walk the bill through a mock legislative process, then follow the “laws” that pass through their graduation.

Design service learning programs that allow students to apply what they learned in the classroom through community service. Students in Douglas Oswald’s high schools civics class at Marion Technical Institute in Ocala, Fla., have mentored 5th graders, helping them prepare for a simulated congressional hearing.

Offer extracurriculars that get students involved in their schools or communities.

Give students a voice in how their school operates by encouraging their participation in student government or classroom management.

Conduct simulations of democratic processes (mock elections, legislative deliberation and diplomacy exercises). In one of Jennifer Reidel’s favorite simulations, students participate in a constitutional convention.

Knock down barriers for civics educators. One out of four teachers surveyed by the Center for Information & Research on Civic Learning and Engagement thought parents would object if they taught about politics in a government or civics class, and only 38 percent thought their district would give them strong support. Teachers who perceive support are more likely to use the most promising practices in civics education.

Underlining=mine

The Dreyfuss Civics Initiative - PRIORITIZING Civics Education


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28 Jul 2020, 1:03 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
I assumed that everyone knew that a president cant serve more than two terms. Was surprised that folks have to have that fact that I knew since gradeschool explained to them!

I am dismayed but not surprised. I see basic constitutional concepts such as free speech and separation of powers misunderstood all the time. The reason civics has not been a priority for schools for long time.
Forgotten Purpose: Civics Education in Public Schools - National Education Association
Quote:
One of the primary reasons our nation’s founders envisioned a vast public education system was to prepare youth to be active participants in our system of self-government. The responsibilities of each citizen were assumed to go far beyond casting a vote; protecting the common good would require developing students’ critical thinking and debate skills, along with strong civic virtues.

Blind devotion to the state or its leaders would never be enough. Rather, being American was something to be learned and carried out.

“I share my own experience of having lived in Eastern Europe—where in some places it was dangerous to criticize the government—to help my students understand and prepare to defend the freedoms we have in America,” says educator Toni Simovski. His family emigrated from Macedonia and Simovski served as a translator for the U.S. military before becoming an award-winning high school civics teacher in Dearborn, Mich.

He requires students to “see civics in action” at school board and city council meetings, engage in local issues through letter-writing campaigns, conduct interviews with local officeholders, or host members of the Michigan legislature in their classroom.

Unfortunately, such a rigorous civics education is not available to all students.

Until the 1960s, it was common for American high school students to have three separate courses in civics and government. But civics offerings were slashed as the curriculum narrowed over the ensuing decades, and lost further ground to “core subjects” under the NCLB-era standardized testing regime.

It’s Not an Exaggeration to Say that Civics Education is in Crisis.
Only 25 percent of U.S. students reach the “proficient” standard on the NAEP Civics Assessment. White, wealthy students are four to six times as likely as Black and Hispanic students from low-income households to exceed that level. Here’s why: Students in wealthier public school districts are far more likely to receive high-quality civics education than students in low-income and majority-minority schools.

Contrary to Popular Belief, the Problem isn’t that Students Receive No Civics Education.
All 50 states require some form of instruction in civics and/or government, and nearly 90 percent of students take at least one civics class. But too often, factual book learning is not reinforced with experience-based learning opportunities like community service, guided debates, critical discussion of current events, and simulations of democratic processes.

But Many of the Popular Reform Proposals are Based on Misconceptions.
Even states that require civics education rarely take best practices into account. Since 2015, several states have required students to pass the U.S. citizenship exam before graduating high school. But putting so much attention on rote memorization actually diminishes the likelihood that students will develop more meaningful civic skills.

What We Can Do
Provide formal instruction in U.S. government, history, and democracy that involves more than rote memorization of facts and procedures. Jennifer Reidel’s students at Lyn den High School in Lynden, Wash., research, write and debate their own bills, study recent Supreme Court cases, and hold a mock trial. Other required activities include volunteering in the community.

Incorporate discussion of current local, national, and international issues in the classroom, particularly those that young people view as important to their lives. Nancy Peterson, who teaches American Government at Gilbert High School in Gilbert, Iowa, “designed her class from the student perspective.” Her students introduce bills proposing the class colors, flower or song. They walk the bill through a mock legislative process, then follow the “laws” that pass through their graduation.

Design service learning programs that allow students to apply what they learned in the classroom through community service. Students in Douglas Oswald’s high schools civics class at Marion Technical Institute in Ocala, Fla., have mentored 5th graders, helping them prepare for a simulated congressional hearing.

Offer extracurriculars that get students involved in their schools or communities.

Give students a voice in how their school operates by encouraging their participation in student government or classroom management.

Conduct simulations of democratic processes (mock elections, legislative deliberation and diplomacy exercises). In one of Jennifer Reidel’s favorite simulations, students participate in a constitutional convention.

Knock down barriers for civics educators. One out of four teachers surveyed by the Center for Information & Research on Civic Learning and Engagement thought parents would object if they taught about politics in a government or civics class, and only 38 percent thought their district would give them strong support. Teachers who perceive support are more likely to use the most promising practices in civics education.

Underlining=mine

The Dreyfuss Civics Initiative - PRIORITIZING Civics Education


The problem with teaching "political" subjects is that you need to ensure they are covered in an "a-political"\non-partisan manner, ensuring that both sides (left and right) are given equal coverage, and not biasing the course towards one side's opinions\beliefs as being "better" or "more valuable" than the other.

That said, even something simple such as which area of governemnt is responsible for given areas (education\health\defence\...) seems to have been lacking of late, with even politicians blaming the incorrect level of government for failures which were the responsibility of another level.



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28 Jul 2020, 3:29 am

Hear me out...

Obama turns himself into a goose and runs again.


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28 Jul 2020, 6:43 am

Andrew Yang should run again after either Trump or Biden. This second term i dont want to vote for trump or biden but might have to vote trump though hes a prick biden has dimentia.