It's almost illegal to have conservative opinions in theWest

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techstepgenr8tion
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08 Aug 2020, 7:23 pm

Oh_no_its_Ferris wrote:
@techstepgenr8tion I just noticed you are not listed as a mod anymore

Yeah, that's a ticket I put in something like 10 years ago. Glad it finally closed.


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08 Aug 2020, 7:40 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Oh_no_its_Ferris wrote:
@techstepgenr8tion I just noticed you are not listed as a mod anymore

Yeah, that's a ticket I put in something like 10 years ago. Glad it finally closed.


*snigger* better late than never :lol:


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CockneyRebel
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08 Aug 2020, 8:11 pm

Let's face it. Times have changed. We need fresh blood in the White House. Ideals of old no longer work. The world keeps changing every day. The views of the modern world will seem quaint in 100 years when people are running around naked on hot, sunny days.


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08 Aug 2020, 9:15 pm

Hollywood_Guy wrote:
Even "conservative" economics idea are dying away.


You mean trickle down economics, which has for a long time been shown to be absolutely awful?

Conservatives have for a long time been getting by on economics by hiding the truth of how awful they are at it. Here in Australia the conservative party likes to pretend they are the party of economics, and they somehow get away with it despite there being a whole lot of evidence that the country's economy does better under the Left wing party. Able to do so because major businesses that hold monopoly over the news media can still benefit from the conservative trickle down method.

A lot of the time the long standing conservative idea are just plain false (a lie, or super out of date), and that is why you may start seeing some push back in some experts or other people not wanting to support straight out lying.


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08 Aug 2020, 10:10 pm

Bradleigh wrote:
Hollywood_Guy wrote:
Even "conservative" economics idea are dying away.


You mean trickle down economics, which has for a long time been shown to be absolutely awful?

Conservatives have for a long time been getting by on economics by hiding the truth of how awful they are at it. Here in Australia the conservative party likes to pretend they are the party of economics, and they somehow get away with it despite there being a whole lot of evidence that the country's economy does better under the Left wing party. Able to do so because major businesses that hold monopoly over the news media can still benefit from the conservative trickle down method.

A lot of the time the long standing conservative idea are just plain false (a lie, or super out of date), and that is why you may start seeing some push back in some experts or other people not wanting to support straight out lying.


A big part of the problem is that many so-called economic experts are just Austrian school or neo-liberal ideologues. Over time their ideas will be proven wrong, but as long as they're treated like experts based on their ideological preferences instead of their ability to prove their insights are correct they'll continue to cause damage and continue to be employed by people who benefit from the situation.


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goldfish21
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08 Aug 2020, 10:41 pm

:chin: Maybe if conservative opinions weren’t borderline criminal they wouldn’t seem almost illegal..


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08 Aug 2020, 10:47 pm

Humans evolve over time and back in the days it was acceptable to torture humans and everyone watched it. People were even paid to torture inmates. Then over time people started to see it as cruel and countries started to outlaw it. Today, humans who are still like this would be called sociopaths and having no conscious.

Centuries ago it was normal to have sex with minors and have kids with them, this was normal and people didn't live long back then. Today this would be called pedophilia and people who are still attracted to kids would be considered sick and mentally ill.

I am seeing this happening with conservatives I am thinking if racism will be a mental illness and other right wing beliefs as humans keep evolving while some will remain the same with these thoughts. I see right wingers doing the reverse thing with "Liberalism is a mental illness" while I am feeling the same way about them.


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08 Aug 2020, 11:01 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Centuries ago it was normal to have sex with minors and have kids with them, this was normal and people didn't live long back then. Today this would be called pedophilia and people who are still attracted to kids would be considered sick and mentally ill.


To be fair, the person doing that may well just be in an arranged marriage and not really attracted to their minor partner, just obliged to do their duty. It didn't matter who you were attracted to, you were expected to produce offspring. In that context the different attitude makes sense, no one really, truly had full consent to give (even more so for women, even if they were the adult partner).


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ComteRenoir
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08 Aug 2020, 11:24 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Political success is not a matter of what the sender of the political messages meant to say or not say, it is a matter of how it is taken.


Nope. Nah. Not really.

The phrase Black Lives Matter does not need a caveat. That's literally the core, universal belief of their movement. That black lives matter. That belief shouldn't need to be sanitized or watered down for the sake of some (I say some, even most white "critics" of blm know better than this) white people who are so absurdly sensitive that they think the very idea of Black lives mattering is an attack on them.

I'm not black, I don't get a say for what they should do as a movement. But I don't see why they should try to appease people who can't even get on board with saying, out loud, that black lives matter. It's not on blm that the rift exists, its on the incredible fragility of the all lives matter crowd.



roronoa79
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08 Aug 2020, 11:29 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
A big part of the problem is that many so-called economic experts are just Austrian school or neo-liberal ideologues. Over time their ideas will be proven wrong, but as long as they're treated like experts based on their ideological preferences instead of their ability to prove their insights are correct they'll continue to cause damage and continue to be employed by people who benefit from the situation.


This. Any time capitalists see themselves losing ground in academia, they throw millions of dollars at the problem until they poison the conversation in their favor. While leftist economists had to keep one eye looking over their shoulder, capitalist economists were getting millions in grant money thrown at them. It's like with the academic 'debate' over climate change: if there's overwhelming consensus that something is true which wealthy capitalists don't like, the solution is to spend millions supporting the defeated side and sow distrust of scholars and scientists among the public. We are seeing the consequences of this public disregard for science playing out in real time.

The Chicago School and its ilk became factories for pumping out capitalist economists ready to parrot government economic propaganda and foreign policy.


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The_Walrus
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09 Aug 2020, 4:49 am

roronoa79 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
A big part of the problem is that many so-called economic experts are just Austrian school or neo-liberal ideologues. Over time their ideas will be proven wrong, but as long as they're treated like experts based on their ideological preferences instead of their ability to prove their insights are correct they'll continue to cause damage and continue to be employed by people who benefit from the situation.


This. Any time capitalists see themselves losing ground in academia, they throw millions of dollars at the problem until they poison the conversation in their favor. While leftist economists had to keep one eye looking over their shoulder, capitalist economists were getting millions in grant money thrown at them. It's like with the academic 'debate' over climate change: if there's overwhelming consensus that something is true which wealthy capitalists don't like, the solution is to spend millions supporting the defeated side and sow distrust of scholars and scientists among the public. We are seeing the consequences of this public disregard for science playing out in real time.

The Chicago School and its ilk became factories for pumping out capitalist economists ready to parrot government economic propaganda and foreign policy.

This is ironic.

Orthodox economics are orthodox because there are huge bodies of work supporting them, not because economists are ideologues. There is no credible empirical case against capitalism, it is very clear that capitalism raises standards of living better than other systems.

It is the heterodox economists, both Austrian and Marxist as well as a whole bunch of oddballs, who are the ideologues. I mean the very fact that one of you is lumping together the Chicago School and the Austrian School together and the other one is claiming the Austrians are mainstream suggests that you’re not coming from a place of evidence, or knowledge of mainstream economics, but from a place of ideology.

Anti-capitalism is the economic equivalent of flat Eartherism or Inteligent Design. Admittedly it usually (but not always) comes from a position of benevolence, but it is equally ignorant and anti-scientific.

And of course economics is largely distinct from foreign policy.



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09 Aug 2020, 5:17 am

The_Walrus wrote:
This is ironic.

Orthodox economics are orthodox because there are huge bodies of work supporting them, not because economists are ideologues. There is no credible empirical case against capitalism, it is very clear that capitalism raises standards of living better than other systems.

It is the heterodox economists, both Austrian and Marxist as well as a whole bunch of oddballs, who are the ideologues. I mean the very fact that one of you is lumping together the Chicago School and the Austrian School together and the other one is claiming the Austrians are mainstream suggests that you’re not coming from a place of evidence, or knowledge of mainstream economics, but from a place of ideology.

Anti-capitalism is the economic equivalent of flat Eartherism or Inteligent Design. Admittedly it usually (but not always) comes from a position of benevolence, but it is equally ignorant and anti-scientific.

And of course economics is largely distinct from foreign policy.


Even if Capitalism raises the standards of living, there is plenty of evidence that left unchecked it can kind of collapse in on itself by creating a new hierarchy like what it was built to stop, where the very top will syphon all of the wealth to themselves while ignoring the needs of the bottom. That is what Marx foresaw in the past, and has become increasingly relevant from a widening wealth gap.

I don't think Capitalism is evil, just that left without influence to keep it won't be good, where you get the really bad boom and bust cycles that can lead to recessions or even depressions. Capitalism by itself is a wasteland benefits only those with the power and resources.


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09 Aug 2020, 6:46 am

Of course we need some regulation, but I think you’re barking up some of the wrong trees there.

The beauty of capitalism is that it doesn’t matter if the rich care about the poor - to a serious extent, they help them anyway.

In terms of equality, the world has become dramatically more equal under capitalism. It used to be that most of the world survived on peanuts. Now we have billions of people who have steady food, shelter, power, even fridges. There are still high-hundreds of millions who don’t have that and don’t have much prospect of getting it, but instead of the large majority they’re now a substantial minority. And these people aren’t impoverished because capitalism, they’re impoverished because they live in places where businesses don’t want to go, full of instability and corruption and cut off from the world.

In terms of boom and bust - the alternative is permanent bust. That isn’t just about numbers going up, it is the difference between people having jobs and earning a living or them being penniless. Ending capitalism won’t magically stop the busts, but it will remove the booms.

Like it or not, human beings respond to incentives. To me it is greatly preferable that we base our economic system on weaponising those incentives for the common good, rather than ignoring them and just hoping things turn out OK.

What I will say is that imo “true” capitalism relies on everyone making free choices. Our current system does not have that - still works, but has obvious flaws. We need a form of UBI so that people only work because they choose to, not because they have to - that puts pressure on employers to attract employees that a lot of places don’t currently have.

And of course we need regulation to deal with market failures, externalities, monopolies, etc. But reflexive anti-capitalism is not an evidence-based position, nor is denigrating the academics who support capitalism for its poverty reduction.



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09 Aug 2020, 7:14 am

I think that Capitalism works best when it has socialism mixed in, that everyone has access to healthcare and an education not just the rich. The Conservative ideal is to have no control over the free market, to have it do its own thing, or even push growth at all times that will crash, not the Keynesian economics approach of actually trying to slow growth during booms so that it won't have things like an over estimation of itself that can lead to huge recessions. These recessions can cost lives and can be saved by avoiding the out of control growth.

Conservatives don't get sole ownership of the idea of Capitalism, or at least their idea of a true capitalism without the influences of the likes socialism leads to things like child labor and other forms of exploitation, all as long as it makes the market more productive. The conservative idea treats things like being poor as a moral failing.

Do we want things to end up like Rapture?


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09 Aug 2020, 8:15 am

Bradleigh wrote:
I think that Capitalism works best when it has socialism mixed in, that everyone has access to healthcare and an education not just the rich. The Conservative ideal is to have no control over the free market, to have it do its own thing, or even push growth at all times that will crash, not the Keynesian economics approach of actually trying to slow growth during booms so that it won't have things like an over estimation of itself that can lead to huge recessions. These recessions can cost lives and can be saved by avoiding the out of control growth.

That isn’t actually what Keynesian economics prescribes. The aim isn’t to slow growth, the aim is to control inflation and to build up a reserve of money that can be used to stimulate demand during recessions.

Usually the “stimulate demand during recessions” part of Keynesianism is popular, but the idea that governments should run a surplus during boom times is not. This would only be possible with either much higher taxes on everyone or much reduced government services, or some combination of the two. It isn’t plausible for the government to run a surplus while also educating everybody and paying for all healthcare and only taxing the rich.

There is nothing special about recessions. Reducing economic growth kills people as surely as a recession does. When we talk about ending poverty - that’s economic growth.



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09 Aug 2020, 8:54 am



Just A Side Note: A Seed Living or Dead to Be i am...

Capitalism is Based on Consuming
the Resources of the Earth in EFFECT;

Just a Consequence: Now For Real;

Destroying the Only Home We have.

It's kind of a Huge Mistake, And We are Paying
the Price Now in Terms of Taking Homes away from Other Wildlife;

Consuming Their Lives and Homes Taking More than Giving is 'the Mortal
Sin' of Nature out of Balance.

In this Way, Capitalism
is the Beast that will likely
Sooner or later lead directly to the Extinction of
Our species; Whether it is building 'Greater' Killing Bombs;
Or 'MaKing' More Humans 'Material Things' Without Altruistic
Souls that not only Care about each other But all of Nature in Balance
by Viewing
Earth
As
A
Breathing
Force of Nature,
Worth Respecting;
Giving more than taking;
If We Are truly Conservative, We
Will have Much respect for our only home to keep in balance.

Capitalism Will Never Truly Be Conservative; As it Truly Is A Zombie
Eating the Face of Nature (God) More than Feeding It in Return With
'Love' that's more than 'Stuff'.

Money Is not A True Seed of Life;
We Cannot Eat Money; Nor Will We
Breathe Dead if a Greater Pandemic of Killing
Fields Visits Us Personally, Even Now as 'that
evolves' for Overall Nature Balance. Capitalism is Cancer;
Not Necessarily Cancer in the Short Term; But a Slow Long Term Torture.

i have no Solution;
i am Naturally Part of
A New Human Problem too;
As Human Culture, Overall, is the Worst Virus this Living Earth has
Ever Encountered Driven in 'Killing Fields Most' By Capitalism taking All of Nature into 'ACCOUNT'.

Well, Actually i do have a Solution; Same One Generated by the 'Matrix', Terminator, And Avatar
Series of Movies We Are Actually Playing Online Now in 'Real Time' Now; Be More Human than Machine;
Be Greener
than
A
Dollar Bill;
Be More Fluid
Breathing, Thriving Flowing
River Within than a 'Plastic Card';
Just a Symbol of Life that is Not Life at all in Balance.

Capitalism Is Not Conservative: Prove me wrong Now

Please, by doing something different; Rhetorical Request only;

for i already see the Answer; Colder Souls Lost From Nature's Flame in

Balance no longer 'See'...

Without the
Conservatism
of Balance Any
Part of Nature Will Eventually Be 'Corrected'...

We Consume About 40 Percent of the Resources
of the Earth in the United States with about 4 Percent of
The Population; We Currently Endure About a Quarter of
the World's Covid-19 Recorded Deaths; Do You 'See' the
Correlation of Callous Greed And Hoarding Stuff; i surely do...
Capitalism At Core is 'A Protestant Work Ethic; This Cancer Runs Deep; it is Darkest 'Human Religion'.

Yes, lots of Humans are Benefitting From Capitalism in the Short Term; But the Long term 'Speaks'

Differently already...

i am only A 'Court Reporter'; likely Gone Before 'This Cancer' fully metastasizes;
With No Descendants Paying 'the Price' Except for all Humans/Life sharing the
Same Origin of Gaseous Star Dust; Just to Fade Away Again in Star Dust too...

Just Self-Important
Dust in The Wind;
Nothing Much Lost Gained...
but Love as far as i give a 'Rat's Butt'...

Common Ancestor 75 Million Years or so
ago still never Separated for those Who Care
Enough to Conserve Life Giving a Rat's Butt About IT.


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