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Brictoria
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16 Aug 2020, 7:41 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
On the other extreme, I believe in many cities in the U.S.A. at night (Portland, for example) you can see what another subset of people will likely end up doing, having been sitting around with no purpose or jobs since their city/state has been shut down...


Protest policy brutality and social injustice? Well, that is democracy and ironically a result of inequity in the current economic system. And to be clear, the vast majority of the protesters were peaceful and the Federal and police response was extreme in Portland.


It wasn't the peaceful protesters that I was referring to...

Somewhat disingeneous to claim that the riots were due to the Federal responce when they only arrived after a couple of months of riots and the riots continued even after they had left, as far as I can tell from the information online.


You were taking the behavior of a small minority to try to make the claim that people on UBI would turn violent. If you were honest, you would include those that were peaceful. You just used a stereotype that has not much basis in anything.

The Federal response aggravated the situation. Also, there were no riots. At least if you are not just looking at right-wing propaganda. The violence was sporadic and does not represent the protests.


I never claimed that the violence was related to the protests...But the protesters and the organisers haven't disavowed any connection, or done anything to try and minimise the rioting/looting, either...

Also, the Federal officers only went there on July 4, yet:
Quote:
On the night of July 3, a small group of people shattered a glass door at the federal building, which is within a block of both the Multnomah County Justice Center — home to a local jail — and a city police precinct, both of which had been earlier focuses of anti-police violence protests. Prosecutors later accused the group of attempting to set a fire.

The incident prompted the Department of Homeland Security to act on an executive order issued a week earlier by President Trump, authorizing the agency to prioritize enforcement against the "vandalism of government property." In the weeks since, the federal presence — dubbed "Operation Diligent Valor" — has ballooned to include at least 114 federal officers not usually stationed at the courthouse.

Source: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/portland-protests-federal-agents-clashes-explainer/

So it's hard to make the case that the federal officers were the cause of the violence, when it started prior to, and was the cause of, them being sent there.


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blazingstar
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16 Aug 2020, 7:42 pm

Mr Reynholm wrote:
I think UBI is a bad idea IMHO. What will be the incentive to better oneself or work at all if they are guaranteed an income? I spent several years in the Navy. In the military you get paid the same if you work 168 hours a week or zero hours. When people get paid no matter the time or quality of the work, they take the easiest route. That does not lead to better quality of service or products. Its not an attack on any group of people, its just human nature. People have to have some incentive to strive to do better.


You are tarring with a pretty broad brush.

I work my butt off for my clients, and so does my team. We provide a higher level of service. We advocate strongly for those who can’t speak for themselves.

We get exactly the same amount of money as people with the same title who do the bare minimum.


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aghogday
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16 Aug 2020, 8:28 pm



Money Doesn't Make One Happy; but what it does
Do Is Free Up Space In One's Life to Actually Achieve
Human Potential; Increasing Levels of Complexity in
Autotelic Flow; without all the worries associated with
Making Money; indeed, If one is Slave to Making Money,
They Have
A Master
Now that
Influences all
they do in Life and
as far as not Achieving
Human Potential in which/what-ever
Way A Person actually manifests this
Potential in Fruition, say goodbye to
the Intrinsic Reward of the Bio-And-
Neuro-Chemical-Hormonal-Mix-that
Brings a Full Life Within to Fruition;
But Of course, We Are Spoon Fed
This Myth to make this 'Soylent Green
Stuff' to Consume the
Earth in ways of
Material
Goods
is Happiness;
No, it is not; have
you Seen the Folks
Shuffle by in Masks Lately
in Super-Walmart; before that
their Sour Stagnant Faces Beamed
Darkness and now those who are Remain Unmasked
Ignorant, too Selfish without Empathy to Save the Lives
Of Others, whether in Church or Stores Carry
the Same
Facial
Nature
Death
of Soul
Everywhere they go...
Mileage, varies depending on
Make and Model of Human Being;
Some folks, will Inherit/Acquire all
the Money they need in life and
More and it will make no
difference in how
they Consume
the Earth;
We Can No longer Keep up this Eating
the Face of Nature (God-Us) as Zombies of Human
Cultures We have been; We Must find another way now
to exist, other than consuming more than we need or Goodbye
Human Species; My Mother Lived off of Less than 500-Dollars-A-Month
in Social Security Benefits, refusing to take the Supplemental Part she was
entitled too as all she needed was a smile and always a way to keep her Mind
Stimulated; it doesn't take a whole lot, if you've learned your entire life how to Generate
Happiness
within;
True, We
need more than
A Universal Basic Income;
Teaching Humans How to be Human
again will be a great step forward in Balance;

How do We Do it?

Small Steps..

Small Words..

Small Waves and Water
ToGeTHeR Make Oceans Flow Whole;
Meh; my Life has never been better
with all the Money worries removed;
do i wish for more than i need in terms
of Money; No, the Increasing Complexity
evolving my Soul in Autotelic Flow means
at 60 Years-Old, i continue to Learn Greater
Dance Moves as Friends with Gravity; Greater
Martial Fluidity Stronger Greater Loving Everything ALL (GoD)

Breathing to Sing in Flow of Balance Now For Real too...

Basically, A Christmas Tree Up All Year Around Evolving
More Colors of Soul Lights to Feel and Sense and Give
and Share Free even More as i go; in other Words, my
Brain is Like Frigging Disney World on Fire of Joy

iN Balance of Peace And Harmony Now

For Real, increasingly
so Creating 'Novel
Connections'
at this
Very
Moment
More than
A simple Yes or
No Black and White
Answer Short in Breath
of anything Close Now to
Greater Human Potential...

Now

As 'Eastern Philosophy'
Teaches, Just one area
of Expertise will be improved
all across a Lifespan; in this 'Western Land' Now
of the Free And Ignorant, Donald J Trump is the Leader
of Nothing that truly leads to Happiness Within Reflecting

the non-Soul

of a Country Whole...

Here's Some Bottom Lines;
Newer Generations Who have
Found This Freedom Will be Better
Able to Lead the Country in the Future;
As Long as We Have a Constitution that
rules for a Greater improved Union there
is the Reality of Change; We, The People Who
are They, The People, Will Make the Future What it

Comes to be next;

More Specifically,
in all cases they
Will Decide Where
They Wanna Live Within
too; Heaven or Hell; or the
'Tween of Purgatory Greys they
Make In Shallowest Nightmares or
Deepest Dreams Colorful Yet to Create
In Fruition of Reality Next; the Folks in
this Country may not do it; but the Globe
is Large and Already closing their Borders
to the Ignorance of 'The Trump Way of Existence;

Cultural Human

Sub-Species

ViRuS Creature Double Feature...

Meh; i could move to a More Advanced Culture;
but it's the same reason i keep going to A Church
oF iGNorance; i have ways of convincing them to change
in small steps and words; like telling the Monsignor today;
taking him aside from the Congregation; the Guy Who was in
the Top 10 of my High School as i only made 11 out of 381
tied with my Best Girl Friend Lynn; "If We Really Believe In the
'Sanctity of Life', We Will Make Masks Required in all Masses,
No Ifs, ands, or buts"; i already convinced him in words
like this of Free Verse Poetry in an Email to halt
the Deacon Ignorance of Transforming
Hurricanes, Homosexual Behavior,
And Single Mothers into evil
they are not; it didn't
happen again;
and i stopped
two Deacons from
doing it again with two
Separate Emails Like this;
Other days, all it takes is a few
Words from someone who really

'knows you'...

Hehe; i'm A Good Cop "Boogie Man"


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Jiheisho
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16 Aug 2020, 8:40 pm

Brictoria wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
On the other extreme, I believe in many cities in the U.S.A. at night (Portland, for example) you can see what another subset of people will likely end up doing, having been sitting around with no purpose or jobs since their city/state has been shut down...


Protest policy brutality and social injustice? Well, that is democracy and ironically a result of inequity in the current economic system. And to be clear, the vast majority of the protesters were peaceful and the Federal and police response was extreme in Portland.


It wasn't the peaceful protesters that I was referring to...

Somewhat disingeneous to claim that the riots were due to the Federal responce when they only arrived after a couple of months of riots and the riots continued even after they had left, as far as I can tell from the information online.


You were taking the behavior of a small minority to try to make the claim that people on UBI would turn violent. If you were honest, you would include those that were peaceful. You just used a stereotype that has not much basis in anything.

The Federal response aggravated the situation. Also, there were no riots. At least if you are not just looking at right-wing propaganda. The violence was sporadic and does not represent the protests.


I never claimed that the violence was related to the protests...But the protesters and the organisers haven't disavowed any connection, or done anything to try and minimise the rioting/looting, either...

Also, the Federal officers only went there on July 4, yet:
Quote:
On the night of July 3, a small group of people shattered a glass door at the federal building, which is within a block of both the Multnomah County Justice Center — home to a local jail — and a city police precinct, both of which had been earlier focuses of anti-police violence protests. Prosecutors later accused the group of attempting to set a fire.

The incident prompted the Department of Homeland Security to act on an executive order issued a week earlier by President Trump, authorizing the agency to prioritize enforcement against the "vandalism of government property." In the weeks since, the federal presence — dubbed "Operation Diligent Valor" — has ballooned to include at least 114 federal officers not usually stationed at the courthouse.

Source: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/portland-protests-federal-agents-clashes-explainer/

So it's hard to make the case that the federal officers were the cause of the violence, when it started prior to, and was the cause of, them being sent there.


Please make your connection between these protesters and UBI. That is the point under discussion.

As far as the Federal response, the CBS news article you linked to clearly shows an excessive use of force. So while the Federal response did not make someone break a glass door, it aggravated the situation.



Brictoria
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16 Aug 2020, 9:30 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
On the other extreme, I believe in many cities in the U.S.A. at night (Portland, for example) you can see what another subset of people will likely end up doing, having been sitting around with no purpose or jobs since their city/state has been shut down...


Protest policy brutality and social injustice? Well, that is democracy and ironically a result of inequity in the current economic system. And to be clear, the vast majority of the protesters were peaceful and the Federal and police response was extreme in Portland.


It wasn't the peaceful protesters that I was referring to...

Somewhat disingeneous to claim that the riots were due to the Federal responce when they only arrived after a couple of months of riots and the riots continued even after they had left, as far as I can tell from the information online.


You were taking the behavior of a small minority to try to make the claim that people on UBI would turn violent. If you were honest, you would include those that were peaceful. You just used a stereotype that has not much basis in anything.

The Federal response aggravated the situation. Also, there were no riots. At least if you are not just looking at right-wing propaganda. The violence was sporadic and does not represent the protests.


I never claimed that the violence was related to the protests...But the protesters and the organisers haven't disavowed any connection, or done anything to try and minimise the rioting/looting, either...

Also, the Federal officers only went there on July 4, yet:
Quote:
On the night of July 3, a small group of people shattered a glass door at the federal building, which is within a block of both the Multnomah County Justice Center — home to a local jail — and a city police precinct, both of which had been earlier focuses of anti-police violence protests. Prosecutors later accused the group of attempting to set a fire.

The incident prompted the Department of Homeland Security to act on an executive order issued a week earlier by President Trump, authorizing the agency to prioritize enforcement against the "vandalism of government property." In the weeks since, the federal presence — dubbed "Operation Diligent Valor" — has ballooned to include at least 114 federal officers not usually stationed at the courthouse.

Source: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/portland-protests-federal-agents-clashes-explainer/

So it's hard to make the case that the federal officers were the cause of the violence, when it started prior to, and was the cause of, them being sent there.


Please make your connection between these protesters and UBI. That is the point under discussion.

As far as the Federal response, the CBS news article you linked to clearly shows an excessive use of force. So while the Federal response did not make someone break a glass door, it aggravated the situation.


The link wasn't between the protesters and UBI: It was between the rioters and UBI: There are some people who, with nothing else to do with their time, will set out to damage/destroy other people's property, rathet than do something productive for society.

I do realise that it can be hard to differentiate protesters from rioters at present, which is certainly not helped by the protesters not doing much to differentiate themselves, or at times having organisers who endorse illegal behaviour such as looting.


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Jiheisho
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16 Aug 2020, 10:43 pm

Brictoria wrote:
The link wasn't between the protesters and UBI: It was between the rioters and UBI: There are some people who, with nothing else to do with their time, will set out to damage/destroy other people's property, rathet than do something productive for society.

I do realise that it can be hard to differentiate protesters from rioters at present, which is certainly not helped by the protesters not doing much to differentiate themselves, or at times having organisers who endorse illegal behaviour such as looting.


Sorry, but that simply does not exist. Bored people don't simply turn violent.



Brictoria
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16 Aug 2020, 11:05 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
The link wasn't between the protesters and UBI: It was between the rioters and UBI: There are some people who, with nothing else to do with their time, will set out to damage/destroy other people's property, rathet than do something productive for society.

I do realise that it can be hard to differentiate protesters from rioters at present, which is certainly not helped by the protesters not doing much to differentiate themselves, or at times having organisers who endorse illegal behaviour such as looting.


Sorry, but that simply does not exist. Bored people don't simply turn violent.


Quote:
Studies have shown that there is an increase in the number of crimes during the summer months because of boredom.

Quote:
A recent study by Biolocati et al. (2018) investigated the relationship between teens being bored and the chance of risk-taking or extreme behaviors and found that those who were bored took more risks.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/the-empowerment-diary/201803/boredom-violence-and-passion

Nope...No correlation between boredom and activities such as looting (theft) or other anti-social (or violent) activities at all...


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Kraichgauer
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17 Aug 2020, 3:07 am

Until business starts paying people a living wage with benefits again, a universal basic income will be the only alternative to mass poverty and even early death. Reawaken the labor movement so that working people can collectively grab the boss below the belt and twist till they get those raises and benefits.


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Brictoria
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17 Aug 2020, 3:33 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Until business starts paying people a living wage with benefits again, a universal basic income will be the only alternative to mass poverty and even early death. Reawaken the labor movement so that working people can collectively grab the boss below the belt and twist till they get those raises and benefits.


While you have a large population of potential employees, a business has minimal incentive to increase wages (after all, not much is needed to entice new staff if the alternative is nothing).

If you decrease the potential pool of employees by removing those who are not citizens (so cut back on immigration - legal or otherwise), you shrink the pool of available employees. At this point, the pressure is increased on an employer to raise wages and conditions, as otherwise their competition will take the best people and/or no-one will be willing to work there, as other places pay more.

In a situation where there is a large pool of potential employees, "grab[ing] the boss below the belt and twist till they get those raises and benefits" is more likely to result in the business relocating (or closing) than in any meaningful advance for the existing staff, setting them further back.


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magz
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17 Aug 2020, 4:16 am

I think UBI may make some sense in some future but now it won't solve significant problems and can make some new ones instead.
Poland has a sort of UBI for parents and the results of introducing it are:
1. Inflation - prices grow with every such move;
2. While it certainly helps some families make ends meet, the real "lower class" tends to spend it on "getting nails done" or even liquor and stays in the same poverty they were before.

I think UBI makes no sense before Universal Basic Education and Universal Basic Healthcare. Then, Universal Public Transport, Universal Affordable Housing (in USA it would probably require cultural shift of accepting apartaments as a norm) and Universal Meals For Children In Schools. Then - maybe UBI...
Otherwise, the people who really need leverage from inherited social pathology won't be able to use it.

Introducing UBI in places like Europe would increase unwanted immigration and all the problems connected to it.
Introducing UBI in more capitalist states would likely just add to consummerism and power of the market sharks.
So - not now.


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vermontsavant
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17 Aug 2020, 7:54 am

I basically get it,I'm on SSDI.

As far as everyone getting it:Who would work,or at least put effort into there job,so would there be quality products made in a country with UBI,what would happen to an already fragile economy?


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aghogday
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17 Aug 2020, 9:32 am

Brictoria wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
The link wasn't between the protesters and UBI: It was between the rioters and UBI: There are some people who, with nothing else to do with their time, will set out to damage/destroy other people's property, rathet than do something productive for society.

I do realise that it can be hard to differentiate protesters from rioters at present, which is certainly not helped by the protesters not doing much to differentiate themselves, or at times having organisers who endorse illegal behaviour such as looting.


Sorry, but that simply does not exist. Bored people don't simply turn violent.


Quote:
Studies have shown that there is an increase in the number of crimes during the summer months because of boredom.

Quote:
A recent study by Biolocati et al. (2018) investigated the relationship between teens being bored and the chance of risk-taking or extreme behaviors and found that those who were bored took more risks.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/the-empowerment-diary/201803/boredom-violence-and-passion

Nope...No correlation between boredom and activities such as looting (theft) or other anti-social (or violent) activities at all...




Smiles; as Soon As 'Psychology' Determines what Boredom is i'll give Psychology
More Credence for the Science of What Moves Human Beings Via Emotions of Course.

Boredom is Never 'Filled Up'; 'Feeled Up'; And that's for sure, Within...

What Fills/Feels Us Up Within?

Number 1 as Social Animals
the Oxytocin of Bonding of Course
Keeps Us Comfortable, Warm, and Whole Holding
Hands Together' so much Harder to do as Flies Glued to a Screen

Day in Day Out Sitting Still.

What Moves Us?

Common Sense do More than
Sit and Stare at A Screen; only using
Visual and Hearing Senses as an Audience
Member of Someone Else's Play of Life in the 'Real World'.

How about Dancing And Singing, Free Hand-in-Hand Together;

True; the Human Connection constantly Changing Dancing Singing
Even Better Naked and Free is Never Boring unless one is not yet fully Human...

Smiles, it took me a while to teach the Local Psychiatry and Psychological Profession
this Lesson but when i did; my Psychiatrist got inspired, Quit His Practice and Moved
to South Florida to Teach Movement Therapy in a Teaching Hospital now; for it is true
Free Dance is the Oldest and ironically Newest Way to Regulate And Generate Emotions
And Integrate Senses too; But What do We teach children from almost the first Years they
are born; sitting still; glued to Desks at School And Now Screens At Home; Jesus F in Christ

Where is the
F in Common
Senses And Emotions
Gone in Life; True, You
are looking at the Screen
Now Whoever you may yet
Still be to come Generating
Dancing Singing Free Your Own
Colors of Happiness within

KISS

Keep It Sunshine Simple...

This may Look Complicated
But it is only A Dance And Song
of Symbols; Essence of Colors Coming to a Page Freely in Flow HAPPY NOW FOR REAL ALL FiLLeD AND FeeLeD UP.

Oh, and my Psychotherapist, who couldn't figure out how to Bring my Emotions Back and get all filled and feeled up
again in Bliss; Now, She asks me for advice for Her Other Patients Now; True, i pay her to help her; it's funny,
You Naturally Get Rich When You are FeeLeD And FiLLeD Up Within; Just no need to get something else

When Ya already
Have it all; Autotelic in Flow;
Yes, Fully Generated From Within...

Just about everything in Modern
Society takes Us away from this;
As Science Shows Mechanical Cognition
Activities wither away the Soul of Social Empathic Artistic Cognition FOR REAL.

"Despite boredom's ubiquity and pathological associations, psychologists have yet to pin down what, exactly, it is. Several different scales all claim to measure boredom—the most widely used is the Boredom Proneness Scale—but a recent analysis suggests that they are measuring slightly different phenomena. Explanations for ennui are even more plentiful, ranging from Freud's theories of repressed emotions to individual differences in personality traits, the need for excitement, and attention skills."



https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... f-boredom/


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thinkinginpictures
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17 Aug 2020, 12:28 pm

Obviously very few people actually read my OP, since people in this thread keep asking about incentives to work on UBI.

I thought an aspie forum would increase the chances of people reading more than just the title and opening statements, and actually read the entire post before replying. I was wrong in that assumption.



vermontsavant
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17 Aug 2020, 1:03 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Obviously very few people actually read my OP, since people in this thread keep asking about incentives to work on UBI.

I thought an aspie forum would increase the chances of people reading more than just the title and opening statements, and actually read the entire post before replying. I was wrong in that assumption.


I re-read your original post and saw nothing addressing the issue of incentive to work or work hard or to better improve products made.


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aghogday
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17 Aug 2020, 4:22 pm

CuRRenTLY, as Far As Currencies, Pay Grades, And Pay Rates Go Away From Love, NoW For ReaL We LiVE iN
A Country So Low On Empathy for others That People Refuse to Wear Masks for the Inconvenience
of Saving Lives Still Now; WHere in the Middle of a Pandemic, The Current Administration Works
Hard to Eliminate Health Care that exists;
Where So-Called Religions
Support All That CR8P too;
including the most Ridiculous
Conspiracy Theories Spoon-Fed
To Ignorant Masses, Same; if You
Want UBI, You Will Not Find it Here
in the United States; You Won't find
it Anywhere Where God is the Dollar Bill;
One Day The Dollar God Will Fall; Sooner than

Soon

As

Souls are
Already Dead Living Zombies in
Dollar Tracks of Do Less than Love.

UBI, Ain't Ever gonna Happen in a Country
Still Breathing Less Than Love; Dollar is the Color of 'Soylent Green'
As We continue to Consume Each Other Until Death Do Us All Part
Un-Wed From

Nature (GoD)

Good News
is Change Happens.


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AuroraBorealisGazer
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17 Aug 2020, 6:01 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Obviously very few people actually read my OP, since people in this thread keep asking about incentives to work on UBI.

I thought an aspie forum would increase the chances of people reading more than just the title and opening statements, and actually read the entire post before replying. I was wrong in that assumption.


Sorry your thread got derailed. It's a common problem on forums. It does seem like in the beginning some people considered your points? Maybe a new thread with a poll would help focus the conversation?