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Brictoria
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17 Aug 2020, 6:29 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Obviously very few people actually read my OP, since people in this thread keep asking about incentives to work on UBI.

I thought an aspie forum would increase the chances of people reading more than just the title and opening statements, and actually read the entire post before replying. I was wrong in that assumption.


The problem is that you need to consider all sides (which includes incentive for people to work) in order to assess something like UBI...Almost anything can be made to look "good" or "appealing" if you restrict focus to only the good points while ignoring details which may demonstrate that perhaps it isn't as good an idea as it may appear at first glance under the "restricted" information.



FleaOfTheChill
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17 Aug 2020, 7:55 pm

While I think the idea of having a UBI is great, I don't think it would actually work. Someone else mentioned inflation, and that's my issue with it. How would that be addressed? Would the government have to step in and tell business what they could charge? Don't get me wrong, I think it is a good idea, I'm just not sure that most countries are ready for that, especially mine (I live in the states). I think we got some growing up to do as human beings first. Things like getting past greed.



Starlight2001
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17 Aug 2020, 8:00 pm

Brictoria wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Obviously very few people actually read my OP, since people in this thread keep asking about incentives to work on UBI.

I thought an aspie forum would increase the chances of people reading more than just the title and opening statements, and actually read the entire post before replying. I was wrong in that assumption.


The problem is that you need to consider all sides (which includes incentive for people to work) in order to assess something like UBI...Almost anything can be made to look "good" or "appealing" if you restrict focus to only the good points while ignoring details which may demonstrate that perhaps it isn't as good an idea as it may appear at first glance under the "restricted" information.


Most people do the opposite of this. When faced with change, especially large-scale change, they focus only on the bad parts of the change and the good parts of the status quo. It's a really annoying thing about humanity.



Jiheisho
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18 Aug 2020, 12:12 am

FleaOfTheChill wrote:
While I think the idea of having a UBI is great, I don't think it would actually work. Someone else mentioned inflation, and that's my issue with it. How would that be addressed? Would the government have to step in and tell business what they could charge? Don't get me wrong, I think it is a good idea, I'm just not sure that most countries are ready for that, especially mine (I live in the states). I think we got some growing up to do as human beings first. Things like getting past greed.


Why is inflation a problem? Why would the government need to regulate prices?



Brictoria
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18 Aug 2020, 12:28 am

Starlight2001 wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Obviously very few people actually read my OP, since people in this thread keep asking about incentives to work on UBI.

I thought an aspie forum would increase the chances of people reading more than just the title and opening statements, and actually read the entire post before replying. I was wrong in that assumption.


The problem is that you need to consider all sides (which includes incentive for people to work) in order to assess something like UBI...Almost anything can be made to look "good" or "appealing" if you restrict focus to only the good points while ignoring details which may demonstrate that perhaps it isn't as good an idea as it may appear at first glance under the "restricted" information.


Most people do the opposite of this. When faced with change, especially large-scale change, they focus only on the bad parts of the change and the good parts of the status quo. It's a really annoying thing about humanity.


It could be worse...Some like to get as much information (good and bad) about a change before deciding whether it is good or not, and regardless of what they find still cannot decide because they need more clarification/information/examples than is available.



magz
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18 Aug 2020, 2:25 am

Jiheisho wrote:
FleaOfTheChill wrote:
While I think the idea of having a UBI is great, I don't think it would actually work. Someone else mentioned inflation, and that's my issue with it. How would that be addressed? Would the government have to step in and tell business what they could charge? Don't get me wrong, I think it is a good idea, I'm just not sure that most countries are ready for that, especially mine (I live in the states). I think we got some growing up to do as human beings first. Things like getting past greed.

Why is inflation a problem? Why would the government need to regulate prices?

Because money is just another market good affected by demand-supply-price rules.
Introducing additional money to the market lowers its value.
Poland is currently experiencing it because our (some adjectives) government bought votes with 500+ - giving 500 PLN / month / child to all families. You can only guess how quickly prices of basic goods grew.


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GGPViper
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18 Aug 2020, 3:44 am

I see two major challenges to introducing a Universal Basic Income (UBI):

Disincentive for work: People whose labor has a market value lower or close to the UBI have little or no economic incentive to work, and occupations with wages below or close to the level of the UBI would have difficulty hiring. This may drive up the wages in these industries (which some people applaud), but it also might make these industries uncompetitive altogether (especially if they compete internationally).

Welfare Trap: With high labor mobility, low-value workers have an economic incentive to move to countries/regions with UBI rather than working. At the same time, they would not be hurt by high taxes, as they wouldn't be paying income tax. High-value workers would have the opposite incentive to move to countries without UBI that offered lower taxes. This could have a devastating impact on the finances of countries/regions with UBI.

It is thus not surprising that countries offering high levels of unemployment insurance also tend to place significant restrictions on who can get said unemployment insurance, and for how long.



Wolfram87
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18 Aug 2020, 4:21 am

If ot could be made to work long term, the nation that does it would have to cut immigration to basically zero.


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auntblabby
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18 Aug 2020, 4:45 am

in amuuurica it would likely not work because of magas. IOW, it would represent only a part of an unavoidably major social realignment enabled by some draconian laws controlling the economy at all levels, it would be part of a centrally planned economy which would strictly regulate "rent taking" on pain of some severe punishment/disenfranchisement which is the only thing that would deter the rent takers. landlords, for example, would have to be prohibited from raising rents beyond a basic % of the value of their property, adjusted for inflation. ditto for all vendors. exempting cooperative vendors/landlords from taxation ["carrot and stick"] is insufficient compensation for the greedheads who want to charge what the market will bear come hell or high water.



FleaOfTheChill
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18 Aug 2020, 5:18 am

magz wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
FleaOfTheChill wrote:
While I think the idea of having a UBI is great, I don't think it would actually work. Someone else mentioned inflation, and that's my issue with it. How would that be addressed? Would the government have to step in and tell business what they could charge? Don't get me wrong, I think it is a good idea, I'm just not sure that most countries are ready for that, especially mine (I live in the states). I think we got some growing up to do as human beings first. Things like getting past greed.

Why is inflation a problem? Why would the government need to regulate prices?

Because money is just another market good affected by demand-supply-price rules.
Introducing additional money to the market lowers its value.
Poland is currently experiencing it because our (some adjectives) government bought votes with 500+ - giving 500 PLN / month / child to all families. You can only guess how quickly prices of basic goods grew.


Your response seems more tactful, intelligent and perhaps more optimistic than mine will sound. I've never taken a class in economics in my life, but it sounds spot on to me from what I do know...which is admittedly not much :lol:

From my own perspective, I don't think government regulation is necessarily a must, but i think some kind of regulation would have to be. I don't know what though. Who is going to be powerfull enough to say to big business, hey, you guys can't go and increase prices now. Or you guys can't drop wages because people can just get supplemental income now. What would stop that from happening? I just lack faith in big business to do the right thing for the average person. I think corporations would see this as a great opportunity to make more money because people would have more money.

It's not just corporations/business either, I agree with the above landlord talk as well. I think greed is a huge problem and until that can be tempered, the people who would benefit the most from a UBI won't benefit from it at all and more people would end up suffering, like the people who are now middle class. Until greed is tempered, I think more people would end up living in poverty. I don't think the govt is necessarily the best choice in making sure that's would happen, but what else could? I dunno.



auntblabby
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18 Aug 2020, 5:26 am

i believe will eventually become a thing only in northern europe and in the commonwealth.



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18 Aug 2020, 9:23 am

Yep; You gotta fix A root problem
Before going to even step one, Now.

A Root Problem Now, is Instant Gratification;

The Coca-Cola Country; Indeed, a Sugar Fix it is;

Meh; at best, a Universal Basic Income Would be about
1,000 Dollars A Month; For A Person Who Can and Will
Generate all the Science Assessed Happiness they care to
Within through Autotelic Flow of Staying in the 'Tween; the
Sweet Spot of Apathy (Boredom) and Anxiety; Guess what, in
most cases, at least on average, in the United States they get a gimme
of at Least a Thousand Dollars a Month; as they don't need that Bigger Home;
That New Car; That New Wife; Those New Clothes; That New All Consuming Goods
Ideology To Replace What is empty Within and Not Generated For Free; The Greatest Creativity
And Productivity comes inherent in Loving What We Do, Generating this Happiness within For Real Now.

Currently, Most People Hate what they do;

Go Figure; Why This World is so Frigging Screwed
Up And Folks Just FreaKin' Don't Care Enough Now;

Many of them; Even to Wear a Mask, if it means Saving
the Life of Mommy And Daddy who Brought them into their
Assessed Hell Hole
to Begin WiTHiN

Now...

A Root Problem
indeed, is Within;
i would have never gained
All the Money i need to live
for the Rest of My Life; if i had
the Same Bad Habits of the American Consumer with no Soul Generated From Within...

A Life of Consuming Bags and Bags of Orange Cheetos, When One Becomes The Greed they Elect to rule The Empty;
The Same Empty Place Within they've never learned to Replace With Living Water (Love for Life) Generated From Within.


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aghogday
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18 Aug 2020, 9:40 am

In Short, Real Universal Basic Income
Is the Real Learned And Practiced Ability
To Generate Happiness Within in Autotelic
Flow; Folks Will Go Back to Life Threatening Situations
to Achieve this Real Heaven Within, Staying in the Sweet
Spot 'tween Anxiety and Boredom, increasing Complexities
of their Endeavors to Stay in This Sweet Spot with no Fears
or Worries in Effortless Play of Greater Creativity and Productivity Now.

My Metaphor is Dancing a Tight Rope with More Complexity in Ease.

Surgeons Do this; CEO'S Do this; And True, this Real Human Magic
of Flow Comes in Dark Colors of Orange (Trump) that have nothing to do with
Love Like Killing on the Battlefield Too; It's not Money that Drives Trump; It's the Same
Dark Flow that takes Soldiers Back on the Battle Field to Kill; Or Mountain Climbers without
Safety Harnesses to do the same, eventually as what becomes a Suicide Endeavor, Ultimately too.

But of course, Not all Folks Find their Flows In Colors of Loving Arts; For Some folks, it's just 'the score'; 'the kill';

And Honestly,
Some folks are
Just Born and or Bred
to Score and kill; is there a
better way, of course, for those
who can and will seek and find it.

Some Do; Some Don't; 'Some Folks Dance Free;

Some Folks Do Not'.

-'Guardians of the
Galaxy' of Love; Circa Volume
Whatever, However Now For Real...


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Last edited by aghogday on 18 Aug 2020, 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

thinkinginpictures
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18 Aug 2020, 10:15 am

UBI does NOT decrease incentive to work!

Read this:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/22 ... ell-being/

Quote:

The study compared the employment and well-being of basic income recipients against a control group of 173,000 people who were on unemployment benefits.

Between November 2017 and October 2018, people on basic income worked an average of 78 days, which was six days more than those on unemployment benefits.

There was a greater increase in employment for people in families with children, as well as those whose first language wasn’t Finnish or Swedish – but the researchers aren’t yet sure why.

When surveyed, people who received universal basic income instead of regular unemployment benefits reported better financial well-being, mental health and cognitive functioning, as well as higher levels of confidence in the future.


READ THAT BOLD UNDERSCORE!

Got it? That's FACT! That is SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that UBI does NOT make disincentive to work!

Anyone saying that UBI creates disincentive to work, either haven't understood what UBI is - or they are deliberately manipulating the truth!

I disagree with the whole concept of "social contract" based upon the principles of "do your duties, claim your rights".

Whenever the State impose a duty on its people, the people are being subjugated and oppressed. The same thing can be said about personal/private companies: If you're poor, and you have to ask for other people's money to survive, you're being subjugated and oppressed.

That is why we need UBI. It abolish the whole subjugation-oppression from both the private/personal/social sphere and state/government sphere.

The state should ask one (1) thing of its citizens: To pay taxes of every income they may have. Including UBI.
Nothing more, nothing less. That means abolishment of any kinds of work duties: Jury duty, conscription (military as well as civic conscription). The state shall never force anyone to work. Neither shall any individual force another individual to work.

People should have a basic human right to get UBI, from the state getting the money from the one and only duty it can (and should) impose on its citizens: Taxation.

The tax should also be small enough for people on UBI to actually be able to live on UBI alone without working - after the taxes have been paid.

We need true liberty. True liberty cannot be achieved when the individual is reduced to wage slaves or conscripts.

UBI can work in any country at any time. There's no reason why they shouldn't be able to have UBI in the 17th century for that matter. Or that UBI wouldn't work in a poor african country.

UBI can work anywhere. For eternity.



magz
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18 Aug 2020, 10:21 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Got it? That's FACT! That is SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that UBI does NOT make disincentive to work!
Based on this study, UBI does not make disincentive to work when compared to unemployment benefits.
And that's likely true.


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aghogday
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18 Aug 2020, 10:29 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
UBI does NOT decrease incentive to work!

Read this:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/22 ... ell-being/

Quote:

The study compared the employment and well-being of basic income recipients against a control group of 173,000 people who were on unemployment benefits.

Between November 2017 and October 2018, people on basic income worked an average of 78 days, which was six days more than those on unemployment benefits.

There was a greater increase in employment for people in families with children, as well as those whose first language wasn’t Finnish or Swedish – but the researchers aren’t yet sure why.

When surveyed, people who received universal basic income instead of regular unemployment benefits reported better financial well-being, mental health and cognitive functioning, as well as higher levels of confidence in the future.


READ THAT BOLD UNDERSCORE!

Got it? That's FACT! That is SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that UBI does NOT make disincentive to work!

Anyone saying that UBI creates disincentive to work, either haven't understood what UBI is - or they are deliberately manipulating the truth!

I disagree with the whole concept of "social contract" based upon the principles of "do your duties, claim your rights".

Whenever the State impose a duty on its people, the people are being subjugated and oppressed. The same thing can be said about personal/private companies: If you're poor, and you have to ask for other people's money to survive, you're being subjugated and oppressed.

That is why we need UBI. It abolish the whole subjugation-oppression from both the private/personal/social sphere and state/government sphere.

The state should ask one (1) thing of its citizens: To pay taxes of every income they may have. Including UBI.
Nothing more, nothing less. That means abolishment of any kinds of work duties: Jury duty, conscription (military as well as civic conscription). The state shall never force anyone to work. Neither shall any individual force another individual to work.

People should have a basic human right to get UBI, from the state getting the money from the one and only duty it can (and should) impose on its citizens: Taxation.

The tax should also be small enough for people on UBI to actually be able to live on UBI alone without working - after the taxes have been paid.

We need true liberty. True liberty cannot be achieved when the individual is reduced to wage slaves or conscripts.

UBI can work in any country at any time. There's no reason why they shouldn't be able to have UBI in the 17th century for that matter. Or that UBI wouldn't work in a poor african country.

UBI can work anywhere. For eternity.


As Far As Pay Goes; Money, As Far as
Universal Basic Income Goes; IT WILL NEVER
WORK IN A DEMOCRACY NOW THAT GETS TO
DECIDE NOT TO HELP OTHER FOLKS; 'Perfect

Storm' example; saying 'go to Hell' to folks in
a Pandemic; "We Don't FreaKiN' Care"; Yes, The Devil's

in the Details

of Why Caring
No Longer Lives Here Enough
to Allow it to have a chance
to work now at least;

in the future, maybe;
With Other Folks Walking the Earth
Further away from Jealousy and Greed
And Hoarding and all that makes Humanity the Worst
Virus in Cultural Ways that Nature has ever seen, here at least

From the Country With 4 Percent
of the World's Population that uses
40 Percent of 'the Instant Gratification'
of the World's Resources to Greedily Survive; to the
Country that Holds the Honor of 25 Percent of Covid-19 Deaths

NO SURPRISE!

All of this comes
From A Force much
Different than Altruistic
Human Nature Freely Giving
Sharing; simply, the insanity
of Population Stresses gone affray;
Guess What; Batman's Not Coming
Back; but 'the Bats' (Free Nature) Are taking Care of Nature Checks And Balances in THeir own way...

To: Be Clear, 'Batman' is A Metaphor for the Conspiracy Theory that one Dude is coming back to solve it all...

From: hmm...

Back to
the BatCave i go...


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