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vermontsavant
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22 Aug 2020, 2:05 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
Ever notice how liberals endlessly talk about saving the downtrodden but when they contact real poor people in real life they view them as irresponsible and pretty much think they should pull themselves up by there own bootstraps?

My sister a hopeless liberal,always talking about the republicans screwing over the poor and so on.I came to visit her and she and her husband picked me up at the train station.We were confronted by a homeless man and not only wouldn't she give him money,she wouldn't even look him in the eye.Typical liberal.

Are you getting the gist of my post now?


We are talking about your sister?
I said my sister didn't I,was I talking about someone else's sister


Sorry, we are talking about someone else's sister. That is an extremely small sample from which to draw a conclusion.
I was talking about MY sister,that's what I clearly said.

The someone else's sister part was sarcasm,of coarse I was talking about my sister,that's what was said.Why would I be at a train station to visit another person's sister.


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Jiheisho
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22 Aug 2020, 2:10 pm

My favorite Republican lie was about the "death panels" in the Affordable Care Act. This was very interesting as then Republican pretended that old people did not matter when a Texas Republican suggested people should go back to work during COVID-19, even if that meant inadvertently killing you grandparents.



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22 Aug 2020, 2:12 pm

It's risky to do a one-for-one comparison of presidents Republican vs. Democrat throughout history (like tallying up good vs. bad) because *the parties changed significantly over time*. And I mean like, hugely. Look at Lincoln, who was a Republican. Back in the 1800s (when democrat and republican parties were formed), the single biggest goal for the Republicans was to end slavery in order to start a free labor society (the alternative to free labor was slave labor). Compare this to nowadays; do you think modern day Republicans are more about siding with African Americans? Whether you do or not, clearly their goals are something entirely different from what they originally were. They're still about free labor, but once slave labor ended, the issues changed. It's actually pretty interesting to track how this stuff evolved -- and I'm no expert.

Both parties started around the early to mid 1800s
Republican party - goal was to support Northern States where there was less slavery, push was to develop free-labor (opposite of slave labor)
Democratic party - goal was to support Southern States where there was more slavery, to maintain slave labor...but they were split between northern and southern democrats, northern believed states should decide, southern believed in slavery...this led to Republican win (Lincoln elected)
This caused civil war...Republicans won, slavery abolished, free labor system took off mainly in the North, led to industrialization and rapid economic growth, Republican party came to be associated with good things such as "anyone can make it in America" philosophy...keep in mind that the South were still mainly democrat and held onto pro-slavery attitudes and their derivatives...obviously African Americans were supporting the Republican party in those days...until some bad things happened, namely working conditions for laborers became bad, this was industrialization at work...Republican party favored smaller government which wasn't doing as much for the people in this regard, they weren't looking out for their workers and protecting them...working in factories with horrible conditions etc., and people would lose jobs, and then there was the great depression, massive stock market crash, loss of jobs, people were stuck...and the Republican party lost a lot of support, the people felt the system had collapsed and failed them. The democratic party also evolved due to its previous northern/southern states division early on (they were split from the start), and by the late 1800s it became something more about increased central government involvement to help look out for its people. The people who were disenfranchised by the depression turned to the democratic party led by FDR to step in and look out for them -- and the democrats did so. From here on was when the democratic party became very pro social welfare and civil-rights and developed many of the values we admire them for today.

They were predominantly in charge of the country from then until 1980...then there was another big recession, and Reagan entered the picture and he was supported in his efforts to help the economy...

So the two parties were all kind of based on economics from the start (the basic measure of "how well a country is doing") -- but Reagan's republicans also espoused conservative American values, such as anti-abortion rights to life and anti gay marriage (both are based on Christian ideals) which were and remain old-fashioned. This is because the Republican party was in some ways old-fashioned, being called the "Grand Old Party" and dating back to its victory in the Civil War. Now I have a problem with this religiosity due to the separation of church and state, which was an important, progressive move for establishing and maintaining liberty in America...so I can't side with Republicans on these issues. The state doesn't impose its religion on the people and that's important, even if it's in the majority. For me this is a big issue and I don't think I can ever be a Republican because of this. I don't want Christians (or people of any religious affiliation) running the country and deciding for me and everyone else what's right based on their religion that I think is, on some level, bs (to put it bluntly).

Trump is similar to Reagan in some ways in his message (he even uses the same "Make America Great Again" slogan that Reagan used) and appeals to working and middle class (mainly white) Americans who were disenchanted with the economic state of the country since the market crash in 2008. Lax immigration and trade policies had led to loss of American jobs. So he was appealing to a lot of Americans and that's how he got elected.

To me, going with modern day democrats is more or less a no-brainer...but I think there are pros and cons to both sides. I've read up on some of the issues and you do find things aren't always so cut and dry between the parties (divisive policies like e.g. Obama reducing Social Security Benefits, and forwarding the Trans-Pacific Partnership...i.e. social security is pro american rights and TPP is anti-american rights, in a nutshell). I could see there being a really good Republican president in the future, but I just don't think Trump is it...I think the Republican party would have to evolve some more in order for that to happen...namely it would have to drop the religious conservative American values which are losing traction with the people, and rightly so.

On some level, modern day Democrats are trying to ride the wave of the good reputation of the democrats started with FDR and continued throughout the decades that followed (with JFK, etc). The modern day Republicans are trying to ride the wave of the good reputation of Republicans that started with Lincoln and was later picked up by Reagan.



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22 Aug 2020, 2:13 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
you're confusing Trump with the whole GOP.

Trump may be "blunt" and "direct". But GOP pols in general are no more blunt and straightforward than are any other pols.

Actually that IS a characteristic of populists, right and left. To throw out red meat to the crowd - by saying things on the minds of millions - in a direct way. What they say may actually be the truth, or it maybe big lies that their audience wants to believe. But they spout simple direct stuff that fits into a soundbite, and get big reactions from the crowd.

One man's "populist" is another man's "rabble rouser". So I will let you be the judge who of the below is which, but..

Hitler was a populist/rabble rouser, and he was rather direct and unvarnished in speaking.

Segregationist George Wallace was rather direct, and his campaign rallies sounded like rock concerts.

And in 2016 both major parties had populist uprisings led by straight talkers: Sanders and Trump.

And crowds ate up both of them. Indeed Robert Reich explains how countless frustrated ordinary voters he spoked to across the land eschewed establishment candidates of either party, and said that they wanted "someone like Trump or Sanders". In Reich's mind Sanders and Trump were polar opposites so it was baffling to him how folks could speak of both of them in the same breath. But apparently millions long for change. And both Sanders and Trump offered that.


Yes you're right but Trump makes promises that he has no intention of keeping aswell. For example didn't he promise to bring Americans together back in 2016? Instead he is tearing us apart big time.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... /93534352/


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22 Aug 2020, 2:20 pm

For example didn't he promise to bring Americans together back in 2016? Instead he is tearing us apart big time...

Is Trump really "tearing us apart", or is it people on the other side who still cannot believe they lost?


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22 Aug 2020, 2:23 pm

"BTW, a lot of bad leaders are very popular, Putin, for example. That is why I think we should be talking about the issues and governance..."

Putin is a complicated one. A heavy-handed tyrant, sure. OTOH he has helped Russia recover from the theft of its resources which Yeltsin allowed.


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22 Aug 2020, 2:24 pm

My favorite Republican lie was about the "death panels" in the Affordable Care Act.

By the way, "If you Like Your Health Care, You Can KEEP your Health Care" :mrgreen:


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Jiheisho
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22 Aug 2020, 2:27 pm

Romofan wrote:
For example didn't he promise to bring Americans together back in 2016? Instead he is tearing us apart big time...

Is Trump really "tearing us apart", or is it people on the other side who still cannot believe they lost?


Seriously? Then why did this not happen in other elections? Any link to the "sore loser" syndrome would be welcome, but I am not sure you are going to find that is a thing...



Jiheisho
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22 Aug 2020, 2:28 pm

Romofan wrote:
My favorite Republican lie was about the "death panels" in the Affordable Care Act.

By the way, "If you Like Your Health Care, You Can KEEP your Health Care" :mrgreen:


You are going to have to stay focused on the topic. The claim is that Republicans are honest...



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22 Aug 2020, 2:28 pm

We were mired in WWI and WWII? I guess we read different history books. We entered WWI very late. In regards to WWII, I guess I don't see fighting fascism a bad thing. Naturally, some Conservative were sympathetic towards the NAZI, but I am happy to be be on the anti-NAZI side here.

Looking at our history, I'd say America has little problem with "Nazis" as long as they are OUR "Nazis". I assume that we REALLY entered World War 2 to sweep up the pickings of the British Empire, and to become rich. At least some of us.

And we did enter WW1 quite late...we should have stayed home. If the Kaiser gets to do his thing, there would have been no Hitler and no Holocaust


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22 Aug 2020, 2:28 pm

Romofan wrote:
For example didn't he promise to bring Americans together back in 2016? Instead he is tearing us apart big time...

Is Trump really "tearing us apart", or is it people on the other side who still cannot believe they lost?


He's really tearing us apart dude.


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Jiheisho
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22 Aug 2020, 2:30 pm

Romofan wrote:
"BTW, a lot of bad leaders are very popular, Putin, for example. That is why I think we should be talking about the issues and governance..."

Putin is a complicated one. A heavy-handed tyrant, sure. OTOH he has helped Russia recover from the theft of its resources which Yeltsin allowed.


And Russia is now going to have to recover from the theft of resources that Putin allowed. There was a huge transfer of public land and resources under him.



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22 Aug 2020, 2:35 pm

Gotta go. Everybody, have a wonderful weekend! :D


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22 Aug 2020, 7:40 pm

Jakki wrote:
This is. A sore spot for me, and yet to make any real sense of it . When I go to vote, you are given a democratic or a
Republican ballot , any your choices are only for one or the other party, but some of the choices are not choices at all
Many of the proposed people to vote for have no one running against them . Incumbents .. if there is no choices then why vote . Or if no one else is running for that office, abolish the office “ job”. No one thinks enough of the job to run for that office then. Why have it, And. Being forced to vote for an entire group of persons for office, why not be able to vote for the person best qualified. , Democrat or Republican.? Regardless .

There are no third party candidates on your ballot?
You have the right to write in a candiate.


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23 Aug 2020, 7:46 am

I know that the republicans may and likely hate me and look down on me for being poor and living on disability,but there honest about it.The left really in truth feels the same way but lies to appear more benevolent.

I am going to vote for the party that at least tells the truth,and so should you!

This is the main idea behind my post,the post has gotten off topic,lets get back to discussion of the statement I made above.Or don't respond and forget the thread but continual off topic posts and I'll request a lock of the thread.

Thanks :)


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Jakki
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23 Aug 2020, 11:53 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Jakki wrote:
This is. A sore spot for me, and yet to make any real sense of it . When I go to vote, you are given a democratic or a
Republican ballot , any your choices are only for one or the other party, but some of the choices are not choices at all
Many of the proposed people to vote for have no one running against them . Incumbents .. if there is no choices then why vote . Or if no one else is running for that office, abolish the office “ job”. No one thinks enough of the job to run for that office then. Why have it, And. Being forced to vote for an entire group of persons for office, why not be able to vote for the person best qualified. , Democrat or Republican.? Regardless .

There are no third party candidates on your ballot?
You have the right to write in a candiate.


This was not offered or mentioned by the people working the poles , but now you mention it ? That does seem correct , you never hear about the 3 rd party candidate in this part of the country .


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