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vermontsavant
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22 Aug 2020, 10:56 am

The_Walrus wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
@Magz
I get the sentiment but in America the candidate who is chosen is greatly under control of the party.

That's a lot of why the DNC Stonewalled the Sanders campaign in 2016 in favor of Clinton.Because Sanders was very anti corporate,and DNC feared loosing corporate support.So the burried Sanders in favor of more corporate friendly Clinton.

Likely why the Sanders campaign did so poorly in 2020 as well,Biden is more corporate friendly and again DNC didn't want to loose corporate money.

Sanders lost principally because he didn’t have enough support from black and Latin voters.

In 2020 he improved his standing with Latin voters through a lot of hard work and his campaign benefitted from it, but didn’t put in the same work with black voters and got trounced in states where the black vote was important.

I think “person of colour” is a stupid term but there aren’t really many non-stupid terms for the same phenomenon in an American context. Appreciate what FXE says about exonyms vs endonyms but how many BAME Americans were involved in that process, and how many actually have a preference for one over the other? Then you see terms like “BIPOC” emerging which weirdly pit black and Indigenous people against Asians and Latins and other non-white ethnic groups. The euphemism treadmill isn’t necessarily bad, but it isn’t necessarily good either.


The corporate backers said: point blank, to the DNC,Sanders gets the nomination and we support Trump.Fact!

As far as the colored vs. POC post maybe my choice wasn't the best for the example.

The point is that Republicans and democrats are no more or less benevolent.The Republicans are just more blunt about what think,the liberals conceal there real thoughts to appear more benevolent.


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Jiheisho
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22 Aug 2020, 11:51 am

vermontsavant wrote:
Other than the fact that the republicans say what they really think in a crude blunt manor as opposed to the democrats who lie and say things they don't really believe.

Does anybody really believe there is a real difference?

The left came up with the term "Karen" for entitled people and say they hate entitlement.But isn't that why the republicans are against welfare and free health care because they didn't believe people were entitled to anything.

People say the republicans lack compassion but aren't they just blunt in saying what they really believe,don't the liberals believe the same things but conceal there true intentions to appear more benevolent?

Make this thread a open forum on brainstorming,my opening statement hopefully provoked thought.Instead of agreeing or disagreeing,just throw out your thoughts on if you feel there really is a difference between parties?


Wow, I really don't know where to start with this. First, there is a difference between individual privilege and social welfare programs. The idea that Republicans don't attack those they think have privilege or support groups through policy, for example corporate welfare, is simply blind.

The problem with the Republican party is not that they are blunt (or are you saying Democratic politicians like Sander is not blunt?), it is because they don't know how to govern. In fact, they have a long standing anti-government position. Well, the Constitution begins with "We the people..." You don't pick and choose what you want to defend in our Constitution and what you don't and the power to govern is given to address all Americans, not simply those in your clique. Sure, the Democratic party has a checkered history, but the systematic attack on our democracy by Republicans is stunning.

And the largest problem with political conversations here and in the US is they are about personality and ego, not policy and governance. What is the actual problem you are trying to solve? What are the issues that you think need to be addressed? Stop worrying about the next Twitter storm or who called whom what. Otherwise, all we have is simply a discussion about what offends you and, personally, it does not matter.



vermontsavant
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22 Aug 2020, 11:58 am

Jiheisho wrote:

Wow, I really don't know where to start with this. First, there is a difference between individual privilege and social welfare programs. The idea that Republicans don't attack those they think have privilege or support groups through policy, for example corporate welfare, is simply blind.

The problem with the Republican party is not that they are blunt (or are you saying Democratic politicians like Sander is not blunt?), it is because they don't know how to govern. In fact, they have a long standing anti-government position. Well, the Constitution begins with "We the people..." You don't pick and choose what you want to defend in our Constitution and what you don't and the power to govern is given to address all Americans, not simply those in your clique. Sure, the Democratic party has a checkered history, but the systematic attack on our democracy by Republicans is stunning.

And the largest problem with political conversations here and in the US is they are about personality and ego, not policy and governance. What is the actual problem you are trying to solve? What are the issues that you think need to be addressed? Stop worrying about the next Twitter storm or who called whom what. Otherwise, all we have is simply a discussion about what offends you and, personally, it does not matter.
Some of your observations have merit but not really the point.It is true that both parties believe the same things but the conservatives are more honest about it.


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22 Aug 2020, 12:01 pm

The problem with the Republican party is not that they are blunt (or are you saying Democratic politicians like Sander is not blunt?), it is because they don't know how to govern.

I wasn't going to bite, but...weren't Reagan and Trump elected precisely because Jimmy Carter and Barack Obama were perceived as "unable to govern" by a majority of the electorate? Carter is seen by many to be among the least competent President at governing ever, in fact.

As opposed to Reagan, whom left-leaning Wikipedia describes as "touting a strong economic recovery from the 1970s stagflation and the 1981–82 recession, as well as the widespread perception that his presidency had overseen a revival of national confidence and prestige"

Some "failure at governing"...Reagan did such a bad job that he was re-elected in one of the greatest landslides ever. And Trump, well we shall see won't we.

Both Reagan and Trump improved the economy's performance. Well, before "COVID" kicked in, anyways.


Also, I consider the biggest failure to govern getting us involved in a major war. Aren't Democrats largely responsible for getting us mired in World War 1, World War 2, Korea and Vietnam?

Stop worrying about the next Twitter storm or who called whom what

If you say so, boss :mrgreen:


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Last edited by Romofan on 22 Aug 2020, 12:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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22 Aug 2020, 12:09 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
Other than the fact that the republicans say what they really think in a crude blunt manor as opposed to the democrats who lie and say things they don't really believe.

Does anybody really believe there is a real difference?

I should probably have my head examined for posting to this thread, but I think I can answer this. Republicans can express their views in a crude or blunt manner because they are expressing opinions on topics that affect them personally, for example, a Republican can sincerely say "I am barely making a go of my business and I will vote against anybody I think will raise the taxes I pay on that business so that somebody I never met, who may have never made any effort better himself economically, can be guaranteed the same health care etc. that I work so hard to provide for myself". BTW I would never try to argue with the person who would say that. Another way is that Republicans express views based on strongly held beliefs or principles they believe are unassailably true. For example (sorry if this may seem a bit stereotypical) a Republican may sincerely believe that Jesus' teachings inform us that Socialism is immoral. If he says that, you can assume he means it.

The irony for Democrats is that, like everything else, success comes from being White, male, and wealthy. So we get to see politicians showing empathy for people whose votes they want to attract, but without any direct experience of what those peoples' lives are really like. The most iconic example might be John F. Kennedy and his brothers. Nobody could be any Whiter than they, and their family's wealth was probably obtained illegally for the most part, but they basically depended on getting the lion's share of the African American vote. I can remember a photograph of either Bobby or Teddy wearing a Wall Street business suit and sitting next to some poor black people in the Mississippi Delta, to get across the message they had empathy for those people. I sincerely believe they really did want to make those peoples' lives better, but quite often they got wrong what most such people actually wanted, plus what they actually achieved in that area has fallen way short of the desired goal. Such politicians are inescapably susceptible to charges of mendacity and insincerity. We can all decide whether they are guilty of such charges or not. Clearly some are, but not necessarily all. Then again we have indeed seen the occasional example of a Republican lying through their teeth as well.


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Jiheisho
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22 Aug 2020, 12:10 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:

Wow, I really don't know where to start with this. First, there is a difference between individual privilege and social welfare programs. The idea that Republicans don't attack those they think have privilege or support groups through policy, for example corporate welfare, is simply blind.

The problem with the Republican party is not that they are blunt (or are you saying Democratic politicians like Sander is not blunt?), it is because they don't know how to govern. In fact, they have a long standing anti-government position. Well, the Constitution begins with "We the people..." You don't pick and choose what you want to defend in our Constitution and what you don't and the power to govern is given to address all Americans, not simply those in your clique. Sure, the Democratic party has a checkered history, but the systematic attack on our democracy by Republicans is stunning.

And the largest problem with political conversations here and in the US is they are about personality and ego, not policy and governance. What is the actual problem you are trying to solve? What are the issues that you think need to be addressed? Stop worrying about the next Twitter storm or who called whom what. Otherwise, all we have is simply a discussion about what offends you and, personally, it does not matter.
Some of your observations have merit but not really the point.It is true that both parties believe the same things but the conservatives are more honest about it.


Really? Show that the Republicans have the same position on environmental regulation? For example, the policy toward Climate Change? Show the same position on social welfare?

And then show honesty. The Republicans have stated, quite long ago, that they intend to repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act. Please link to the legislation to replace the ACA they have submitted? They have certainly had the time to develop comprehensive legislation.

Then show Republican are honest about deficit spending, an issue they always raise during Democratic administrations. How have they lowered deficit spending during Republican administrations?



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22 Aug 2020, 12:15 pm

Romofan wrote:
I wasn't going to bite, but...weren't Reagan and Trump elected precisely because Jimmy Carter and Barack Obama were perceived as abject failures by a majority of the electorate?

Carter: TRUE Obama NOT TRUE
Romofan wrote:
Both Reagan and Trump drastically improved the economy's performance.

Reagan: TRUE Trump NOT TRUE


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22 Aug 2020, 12:20 pm

From Left-Leaning Axios, February 2020

"Average economic growth under President Trump has outpaced the growth under Barack Obama, but not all of his recent predecessors..."


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Last edited by Romofan on 22 Aug 2020, 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

aghogday
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22 Aug 2020, 12:21 pm

It's So true, Conservative that isn't
Necessarily Republican; True OR Democrat;
There are Many Liberal and Conservative
Leaning Folks in Both So-Called Parties.

But Indeed, Republicans
Are Telling the Truth;
With No Restraint Now;
All is Becoming Revealed;
That they Simply Do not
Care About Whether Other Humans
Live or Die; So How Will We Measure This?


4 Percent of the World's Population;
With 25 Percent or So of Covid-19 Deaths;
Easy to Remedy With Leaders Who Care Enough
to Employ Science; as Other Countries Have to Reduce the
Numbers of Misery, Suffering, Death; and Ongoing Disease in REAL NUMBERS.

i'm not worried about
What Happened in the
Past; i wanna see RESULTS NOW;

BY DECEMBER, 25 Days before Christmas:

Science, Already Shows 70,000 Lives
Will be Saved if Americans Wears Masks;
Trump and His Followers, Just Yesterday
in a Small Room Campaign Rally, Refused
to Social Distance, Or Wear Masks; That Is NOTHING
More than Blatant Ignorance and Lack of Human Caring for Others.

BIDEN MAKES IT CLEAR he will MAKE A Mandate for A National
Mask Wearing Policy that ACTUALLY SAVES LIVES; meanwhile, during
the Pandemic, Trump And His Administration work 'Feverishly' to Remove
Health Care During A Pandemic; WHAT the only Man worth Salt of Soul in the
Republican Party did before he died; a REAL WAR AND HUMAN HERO; John McCain,
Prevented the Republican Party As Whole From Inflicting the Misery and Suffering
and Deaths that would have come from what they set out to do, Two years ago,
Removing Health Care from the Arms of 20 Million Americans, Then; Yes

This is the
Difference Between
Republicans and Democrats
Now as far as empirical Knowledge
of the Effective Policies They Bring in
Truth; The Republicans Policies are INHUMANE;

IF IT WERE NOT FOR MCAIN, my Sister might not have
Health Care Now; i take this very seriously; it is a life
or death potential Policy for Other Human Beings;
They wanna mess with the Potential Life or Death
of My Sister; indeed those who support that will hear from me;

AND THEY ARE NO LONGER HIDING THIS TRUTH OF DARK.

KUDOS; they Just signed their Pact and Exit of Power with 'the Devil' at the top
as soon they go the same way they came; nowhere at all close to Human Soul and soon out of 'Power'.

That's Good News; it means this Country is Still Human enough to remove policies from Leaders, INHUMANE.


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22 Aug 2020, 12:23 pm

Romofan wrote:
From the BBC, February 17th 2020:

"The Dow reached record highs under his administration. Mr Trump's supporters argue that his corporation tax cuts along with his US-focused policies, his clampdown on bureaucracy and his promises of infrastructure investment have all helped..."

Thank you for corroborating my point!


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22 Aug 2020, 12:25 pm

I picked the wrong quote, but let's not quibble. Your posts have been excellent, and kudos for having the courage to venture into the lion's den


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22 Aug 2020, 12:29 pm

Romofan wrote:
I picked the wrong quote, but let's not quibble. Your posts have been excellent, and kudos for having the courage to venture into the lion's den

Thank you! Now Smudge will name you a WP VIP!


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22 Aug 2020, 12:39 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Vermont...

Yes, or no.

Have you stopped beating your wife?

:lol:




Thats the kinda question youre asking here.

How so,I appreciate the humor though.

What are your real thoughts on the difference between parties.How does that relate as to whether one bests his wife joking or not.I get your joke but not it's relation to the post.


"Still beating your wife" is an old expression for asking a question that cant be answered without incriminating yourself. A rhetorical question. "Have you stopped selling crack to school children?" You cant answer with "yes" because that implies that you used to do that, and you can say "no" because that implies that you still do it.

Youre asking us if one party's knavery is the same as the other's. Or if they different kinds of knavery. So it assumes that both have knavery, so its kind of an inane leading question.

My thoughts on the current election?

My thoughts are that in the short run parties are irrelevent because the current POTUS is a criminal who dumps upon conservative GOP values even more than he dumps on progressive values. So its the duty of voters of both parties to vote him out. And the Dems picked the right guy, a bland centrist, that educated voters of both parties can follow to that end.Once we get the crises solved then we talk about political parties again.

But in the longer run?

In the short run we need a bland centrist ...after the Trump rollercoaster ride. But in the longer run the party system itself may re shape itself radically.



The GOP was already floundering and foundering before Trump, and basically doesnt even exist anymore except as a cult built around Trump. The Dems are polarized within themselves between the center left and the far left. So both parties seemed to be headed for the intensive care ward, and neither may live much longer.

So in the short we cant be radical. But in the long run we obviously need SOME kind of radical realignment. Maybe to muliple parties.



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22 Aug 2020, 12:43 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Vermont...

Yes, or no.

Have you stopped beating your wife?

:lol:




Thats the kinda question youre asking here.

How so,I appreciate the humor though.

What are your real thoughts on the difference between parties.How does that relate as to whether one bests his wife joking or not.I get your joke but not it's relation to the post.


"Still beating your wife" is an old expression for asking a question that cant be answered without incriminating yourself. A rhetorical question. "Have you stopped selling crack to school children?" You cant answer with "yes" because that implies that you used to do that, and you can say "no" because that implies that you still do it.

Youre asking us if one party's knavery is the same as the other's. Or if they different kinds of knavery. So it assumes that both have knavery, so its kind of an inane leading question.

My thoughts on the current election?

My thoughts are that in the short run parties are irrelevent because the current POTUS is a criminal who dumps upon conservative GOP values even more than he dumps on progressive values. So its the duty of voters of both parties to vote him out. And the Dems picked the right guy, a bland centrist, that educated voters of both parties can follow to that end.Once we get the crises solved then we talk about political parties again.

But in the longer run?

In the short run we need a bland centrist ...after the Trump rollercoaster ride. But in the longer run the party system itself may re shape itself radically.



The GOP was already floundering and foundering before Trump, and basically doesnt even exist anymore except as a cult built around Trump. The Dems are polarized within themselves between the center left and the far left. So both parties seemed to be headed for the intensive care ward, and neither may live much longer.

So in the short we cant be radical. But in the long run we obviously need SOME kind of radical realignment. Maybe to muliple parties.
Very well,I respect what you have said,as I stated this post was looking for brainstorming and not debate.Your contribution is so noted :D


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vermontsavant
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22 Aug 2020, 12:44 pm

aghogday wrote:
It's So true, Conservative that isn't
Necessarily Republican; True OR Democrat;
There are Many Liberal and Conservative
Leaning Folks in Both So-Called Parties.

But Indeed, Republicans
Are Telling the Truth;
With No Restraint Now;
All is Becoming Revealed;
That they Simply Do not
Care About Whether Other Humans
Live or Die; So How Will We Measure This?


4 Percent of the World's Population;
With 25 Percent or So of Covid-19 Deaths;
Easy to Remedy With Leaders Who Care Enough
to Employ Science; as Other Countries Have to Reduce the
Numbers of Misery, Suffering, Death; and Ongoing Disease in REAL NUMBERS.

i'm not worried about
What Happened in the
Past; i wanna see RESULTS NOW;

BY DECEMBER, 25 Days before Christmas:

Science, Already Shows 70,000 Lives
Will be Saved if Americans Wears Masks;
Trump and His Followers, Just Yesterday
in a Small Room Campaign Rally, Refused
to Social Distance, Or Wear Masks; That Is NOTHING
More than Blatant Ignorance and Lack of Human Caring for Others.

BIDEN MAKES IT CLEAR he will MAKE A Mandate for A National
Mask Wearing Policy that ACTUALLY SAVES LIVES; meanwhile, during
the Pandemic, Trump And His Administration work 'Feverishly' to Remove
Health Care During A Pandemic; WHAT the only Man worth Salt of Soul in the
Republican Party did before he died; a REAL WAR AND HUMAN HERO; John McCain,
Prevented the Republican Party As Whole From Inflicting the Misery and Suffering
and Deaths that would have come from what they set out to do, Two years ago,
Removing Health Care from the Arms of 20 Million Americans, Then; Yes

This is the
Difference Between
Republicans and Democrats
Now as far as empirical Knowledge
of the Effective Policies They Bring in
Truth; The Republicans Policies are INHUMANE;

IF IT WERE NOT FOR MCAIN, my Sister might not have
Health Care Now; i take this very seriously; it is a life
or death potential Policy for Other Human Beings;
They wanna mess with the Potential Life or Death
of My Sister; indeed those who support that will hear from me;

AND THEY ARE NO LONGER HIDING THIS TRUTH OF DARK.

KUDOS; they Just signed their Pact and Exit of Power with 'the Devil' at the top
as soon they go the same way they came; nowhere at all close to Human Soul and soon out of 'Power'.

That's Good News; it means this Country is Still Human enough to remove policies from Leaders, INHUMANE.

Unlike most you got the gist of the post.


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aghogday
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22 Aug 2020, 12:47 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
aghogday wrote:
It's So true, Conservative that isn't
Necessarily Republican; True OR Democrat;
There are Many Liberal and Conservative
Leaning Folks in Both So-Called Parties.

But Indeed, Republicans
Are Telling the Truth;
With No Restraint Now;
All is Becoming Revealed;
That they Simply Do not
Care About Whether Other Humans
Live or Die; So How Will We Measure This?


4 Percent of the World's Population;
With 25 Percent or So of Covid-19 Deaths;
Easy to Remedy With Leaders Who Care Enough
to Employ Science; as Other Countries Have to Reduce the
Numbers of Misery, Suffering, Death; and Ongoing Disease in REAL NUMBERS.

i'm not worried about
What Happened in the
Past; i wanna see RESULTS NOW;

BY DECEMBER, 25 Days before Christmas:

Science, Already Shows 70,000 Lives
Will be Saved if Americans Wears Masks;
Trump and His Followers, Just Yesterday
in a Small Room Campaign Rally, Refused
to Social Distance, Or Wear Masks; That Is NOTHING
More than Blatant Ignorance and Lack of Human Caring for Others.

BIDEN MAKES IT CLEAR he will MAKE A Mandate for A National
Mask Wearing Policy that ACTUALLY SAVES LIVES; meanwhile, during
the Pandemic, Trump And His Administration work 'Feverishly' to Remove
Health Care During A Pandemic; WHAT the only Man worth Salt of Soul in the
Republican Party did before he died; a REAL WAR AND HUMAN HERO; John McCain,
Prevented the Republican Party As Whole From Inflicting the Misery and Suffering
and Deaths that would have come from what they set out to do, Two years ago,
Removing Health Care from the Arms of 20 Million Americans, Then; Yes

This is the
Difference Between
Republicans and Democrats
Now as far as empirical Knowledge
of the Effective Policies They Bring in
Truth; The Republicans Policies are INHUMANE;

IF IT WERE NOT FOR MCAIN, my Sister might not have
Health Care Now; i take this very seriously; it is a life
or death potential Policy for Other Human Beings;
They wanna mess with the Potential Life or Death
of My Sister; indeed those who support that will hear from me;

AND THEY ARE NO LONGER HIDING THIS TRUTH OF DARK.

KUDOS; they Just signed their Pact and Exit of Power with 'the Devil' at the top
as soon they go the same way they came; nowhere at all close to Human Soul and soon out of 'Power'.

That's Good News; it means this Country is Still Human enough to remove policies from Leaders, INHUMANE.

Unlike most you got the gist of the post.


Thanks Ben..:)


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