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eyelessshiver
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26 Aug 2020, 9:43 pm

Fnord wrote:
Redd_Kross wrote:
eyelessshiver wrote:
It sounds like they're willing to do it for the ticket home. It's their fault they didn't get a return ticket as part of the package. No one is threatening them harm here. They're just not being offered money if they don't do something they hadn't realized was part of the deal. They could walk away from these situations, they are being given options. They just need to learn to stand up for themselves a little bit and figure out another way home, and take responsibility for their own mistakes of falling for something like this. These are adults with all the commensurate freedoms and rights bestowed on them, so let's hold them accountable for their own responsibility. If you don't want to do something, you say no and you walk out of there, you call your parents, friends, whoever, and explain the situation then, rather than after you have sex with these people, and then say you didn't feel you had a choice...because you did. That's life, live and learn. Not all porn is like that, these are exceptions.
That's a very mercenary attitude. It's fraud at best, if not coercion. They don't necessarily have the choice of buying a plane fare home, and will also be deliberately confused and wrong-footed, and put under a lot of pressure to obey. It's like pyramid sales recruitment x10.
If a woman is fresh out of high school with marginal grades, no money for college, and few job prospects, and some smooth-talking man she has never met before starts telling her that she could be a model, and will become a model if she will just sign on the dotted line and go on a little plane trip ("You won't need to pack a lot of clothes"), that should set off alarms in the woman's mind!

I mean, "Beware of strangers" is one of the first social lessons my parents drilled into the heads of my siblings and I while we were still barely old enough to print our own names.  "Beware of strangers promising you success and fame" should be a mantra of teen-aged women everywhere -- it ranks right up there with "If it seems too good to be true, it probably IS too good to be true".

Such mantras were not created to make adults look wise, but to warn children about two-legged predators!

Those men are utter slime-balls, and there are many more besides, so what were those women thinking, and what mantras did their parents teach them ... "Believe every word of a stranger who calls you 'pretty'"?


I basically agree. I'm not even convinced these guys were that slimy, though. Maybe she *thought* it was a modeling agency, but it might've actually said little or nothing about actual modeling...instead saying "we're looking for pretty young women, pays well, blah blah". Like read between the lines. One ad says "looking for models to do lingerie and nude shoots". Ok, so at least this one mentions nudity. Maybe they ask you to do a little more, but you can always say no. It's like "stripping". Women get into being strippers and then sometimes end up doing more. It's all in the same line of work, kind of.


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eyelessshiver
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26 Aug 2020, 9:54 pm

https://fightthenewdrug.org/sex-on-came ... rn-scheme/

This is a link to the scheme itself. The story is that they were deceived into flying out there on pretenses of a modeling gig. Then they found out they were being asked to do porn...I guess they decided they were still interested, so they signed a contract which allowed the porn producers to do what they wanted with the videos (despite them telling the girls they would only be sold to people overseas)...then the videos showed up online. Uh oh. Signed something, didn't know what was in it, felt rushed, etc., they were deceptive. Yeah it can happen. It's not good, but it can happen. Them participating in the porn itself...this was voluntary. Apparently they also were paid less than promised. Not a great situation, admittedly. Apparently some were "forced to sign it while under the influence of drugs and alcohol". To me it sounds like a responsibility thing on their part.


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26 Aug 2020, 10:45 pm

Fnord wrote:
I mean, "Beware of strangers" is one of the first social lessons my parents drilled into the heads of my siblings and I while we were still barely old enough to print our own names.  "Beware of strangers promising you success and fame" should be a mantra of teen-aged women everywhere -- it ranks right up there with "If it seems too good to be true, it probably IS too good to be true".

Such mantras were not created to make adults look wise, but to warn children about two-legged predators!

Those men are utter slime-balls, and there are many more besides, so what were those women thinking, and what mantras did their parents teach them ... "Believe every word of a stranger who calls you 'pretty'"?[/color]


You are assuming these girls are "Pollyannas" being manipulated by "Hugh Hefners". I think you may be underestimating how much 18 yr old NT girls know about the sex industry. I am sure plenty are making considered decisions drawn by the easy money. Its not the "white slave trade" the media would have us believe which plays into fears many Americans have their daughter will be given drugs and kept locked up by pimps. Many of these NT girls enjoy the lifestyle,



eyelessshiver
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26 Aug 2020, 10:52 pm

There definitely are dark sides to porn...I've found that website to be illuminating...in exposing some stories etc

https://fightthenewdrug.org/performer-o ... -industry/

There are some disturbing and unfortunate reported situations of abuse, coercion, etc., that are relevant...

And obviously, sometimes these people are often on drugs, and people who're just "barely legal" and get trapped in this industry. But that's linked to the hedonistic part of our society. Their desire for sex, money, fame, etc is what gets them in there in the first place and makes it hard to leave. No one is putting a gun to their head. And it's others' lusting after these things that keeps them in business.

Sex, drugs, and rock n roll. Sometimes bad things go together with good things. I realize many drugs are illegal, probably with good reason, and you could say porn should operate by the same principle...it's associated with bad things and really does no good, but...idk. Something about the puritanical side of it rubs me the wrong way. I feel people should be allowed to have fun and make some money etc.


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26 Aug 2020, 10:56 pm

I don't feel we can judge women in the porn industry, we have no idea what they have gone through or their motivation to doing porn. Focusing on the percentage who are trafficked is not representative of all the girls in the industry.



eyelessshiver
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27 Aug 2020, 12:15 am

cyberdad wrote:
I don't feel we can judge women in the porn industry, we have no idea what they have gone through or their motivation to doing porn. Focusing on the percentage who are trafficked is not representative of all the girls in the industry.


Exactly. Same goes for men. Apparently many of the younger gay men might also be subjected to trafficking. The industry isn't by definition exploitative. Sex is a voluntary, enjoyable thing in its normal occurrence. So I think people are attracted to the porn industry because they are being offered money to do this thing that is enjoyable. Many of them are probably already very promiscuous etc and this aligns with their value system. And so they get in porn, and stay there because they like it. Others may only get into it briefly and then be turned off by it and leave. But those who really make a job and career out of it are pretty much there because they have a positive view of what they're doing. Of course there may be some who feel they're stuck there and can't leave and have no other options...but aren't all jobs like that? Many people don't love or even particularly like their jobs, but they're still there day after day. Waitresses have to act nice to all kinds of customers even if they're rude, because that's business. Surely they don't really like these people...but they may pretend to like it or deal with it gracefully, because they want to make some money. The world is filled with these kinds of jobs, where you might not like it as much as you appear to.


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27 Aug 2020, 12:41 am

eyelessshiver wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I don't feel we can judge women in the porn industry, we have no idea what they have gone through or their motivation to doing porn. Focusing on the percentage who are trafficked is not representative of all the girls in the industry.


Exactly. Same goes for men. Apparently many of the younger gay men might also be subjected to trafficking. The industry isn't by definition exploitative. Sex is a voluntary, enjoyable thing in its normal occurrence. So I think people are attracted to the porn industry because they are being offered money to do this thing that is enjoyable. Many of them are probably already very promiscuous etc and this aligns with their value system. And so they get in porn, and stay there because they like it. Others may only get into it briefly and then be turned off by it and leave. But those who really make a job and career out of it are pretty much there because they have a positive view of what they're doing. Of course there may be some who feel they're stuck there and can't leave and have no other options...but aren't all jobs like that? Many people don't love or even particularly like their jobs, but they're still there day after day. Waitresses have to act nice to all kinds of customers even if they're rude, because that's business. Surely they don't really like these people...but they may pretend to like it or deal with it gracefully, because they want to make some money. The world is filled with these kinds of jobs, where you might not like it as much as you appear to.


All valid points, the psychological impact on male porn actors is equally an issue.



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27 Aug 2020, 2:26 pm

Overthinker2000 wrote:
I can't think of any reason as to why porn shouldn't be made illegal


aren't Americans big on 'freedoms'?



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27 Aug 2020, 2:58 pm

Biscuitman wrote:
Overthinker2000 wrote:
I can't think of any reason as to why porn shouldn't be made illegal
aren't Americans big on 'freedoms'?
Some of us also seem to be big on restricting those freedoms.


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27 Aug 2020, 2:59 pm

cyberdad wrote:
I don't feel we can judge women in the porn industry, we have no idea what they have gone through or their motivation to doing porn. Focusing on the percentage who are trafficked is not representative of all the girls in the industry.
Neither is focusing on the percentage of women who knowingly and willingly get involved in the porn industry.


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eyelessshiver
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27 Aug 2020, 5:07 pm

Fnord wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
Overthinker2000 wrote:
I can't think of any reason as to why porn shouldn't be made illegal
aren't Americans big on 'freedoms'?
Some of us also seem to be big on restricting those freedoms.


Because it's not what people want. That's not how democracy works. Someone doesn't just decide to randomly make something illegal because they think it seems wrong or unsavory to them. Currently there are both customers and professionals in porn who want it to be there. There are also lots of people who are just doing it *for fun* -- getting it for free, and making/sharing it for free, or next to nothing (exhibitionists). People are having sex anyway. Why be so against exhibitionism and voyeurism when it is consensual? Sex is natural, like someone mentioned before, but claimed porn is not. Porn is in fact sex, just on videotape. Of course some taping is more natural than others -- some is heavily produced, edited, and set up unnaturally. But the sexual acts people are engaging in -- trust me, people are interested in this anyway (orgies and so forth, it has been going on for much longer than porn has). So why be against videotaping/documenting something, if it's what people want? Maybe we should just outlaw video all together. There should definitely be protection for workers when their rights are being violated, that's a no-brainer. There will always be cases where workers are exploited, and there's a system in place to help with that. This is not a puritanical society, so dream on.


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27 Aug 2020, 5:53 pm

Fnord wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I don't feel we can judge women in the porn industry, we have no idea what they have gone through or their motivation to doing porn. Focusing on the percentage who are trafficked is not representative of all the girls in the industry.
Neither is focusing on the percentage of women who knowingly and willingly get involved in the porn industry.


I take it porn conflicts with your personal values?



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28 Aug 2020, 11:02 am

cyberdad wrote:
Fnord wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I don't feel we can judge women in the porn industry, we have no idea what they have gone through or their motivation to doing porn. Focusing on the percentage who are trafficked is not representative of all the girls in the industry.
Neither is focusing on the percentage of women who knowingly and willingly get involved in the porn industry.
I take it porn conflicts with your personal values?
Yes and no.  While I know that pornography is considered immoral by some people, that sex outside of marriage and masturbation are considered sins by many of those same people, and that some of the people involved in the porn industry have been coerced or tricked into participating, I just cannot agree with the assertion that pornography should be banned.

• The First Amendment guarantees freedom of speech and press, even for pornography.

• "Self-abuse" is not a secular crime.

• Two or more adults participating in a mutually consensual relationship based solely on sex is not a secular crime.

Besides, once you've seen one porn flick, you've pretty much seen them all.  As I said before, the only variables seem to be the performers, the settings, the fetishes, the costumes, and the order in which each type of sexual activity is shown.  Other than that, it's just the same old grab, grope, strip, lick, suck, f****, and money-shot, each and every time.

Boring.


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28 Aug 2020, 11:12 am

^^^

Didn't See Personal
Imagination And
Fantasy in 'the
List'; if 'Porn'
is ONLY A Tool;
One surely isn't
Taking Full Advantage
of the Tool as Art over Science...
Perhaps this Explains Why i find
my Wife of over 30 Years, Just
as 'Exciting' As When She Was
19; and OVERALL She still
Looks Basically the Same;
Not much different than 19...
True it
Depends
on How one
Waters A Flower;
Or If One Waters A
Flower at all; hmm...
Things that make
Ya Wanna
Dance And
Sing; hmm..;)

Porn is An Art;
Butt Only When
Beauty is Totally Free
Kindly in the Eye of the BeholderS


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28 Aug 2020, 5:06 pm

Fnord wrote:
Besides, once you've seen one porn flick, you've pretty much seen them all.  As I said before, the only variables seem to be the performers, the settings, the fetishes, the costumes, and the order in which each type of sexual activity is shown.  Other than that, it's just the same old grab, grope, strip, lick, suck, f****, and money-shot, each and every time.

Boring.


I can't decide if you are essentially saying that every story that uses The Hero's Journey might be equally boringly predictable, or you are only familiar with super boring porn.

Whether it counts, a lot of hentai doujin (comics) I read go from end up taking surprising turns. Like the other day this one that just seemed be about fetishizing a crossdressing guy turned into a genuine uplifting tale of a transwoman being accepted for who she is and accepting herself as her body changes. Not saying most are like that, but some porn is more than a predictable repeated order of things. Plus those different fetishes as you call them can be safe ways to indulge in things, whether a particular fetish or figuring out their orientation.


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28 Aug 2020, 8:56 pm

certain parts of it are never boring for me. human bodies in all their glory, are beauteous things.