[ POLL ] Morality Laws.

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I believe in the separation of church and state.

I don’t believe there should be religious courts that have secular jurisdiction, and could mete out secular punishments.

But do you believe there should be secular courts that mete out punishment for violations of religious law (i.e., Sharia Law, Church Doctrine, Temple Protocol, et cetera)?

Last edited by Fnord on 28 Aug 2020, 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Of course not!

^Thank you for clarifying.

I would like to see more discussion from people on the other side of this issue -- those who believe that secular forces should be brought to bear in order to enforce religious doctrine.

That was what the Inquisitions were all about.

That was the premise of the Papal States.

I get your point. The problem is there’s no real problem when dealing with a more primitive Christianity. It’s logically possible to have a theocracy that both dedicates itself to God AND allows its citizens the freedom to believe otherwise. Christian laws are objectively best for everyone in society, whether they are believers or not. The United States and other Western societies already observe Christian laws as their own laws, and even many if not most atheists embrace these same laws as guiding their own lives.

The main flaw you display here is ignoring that laws were given when the world was created and originated with their Originator. All laws are essentially religious by nature. You’re making a false assumption about where those supposed scribblings came from. You haven’t considered the logical possibility that those scribblings were taken from reason and evidence (although I dispute the actual value of evidence, but...another discussion).

Now...I will agree with you about interpreting them according to their own guilt. Evil men have always twisted what is holy into tools for greed and manipulation. However, if one is to think about these laws objectively, one must conclude that any law that can be broken is not a law at all. Laws that exist as brutal equal justice as a means of deterrent are laws created with the expectation that reasonable human beings will inevitably break those laws, such as cutting someone’s tongue out for blasphemy. The Almighty can not possibly be blasphemed, so why make a law about it? Those laws aren’t made because someone fears judgment on a nation. If that were the case, the correct punishment would be death, not mutilation, and it is out of a sense of self-protection from an angry God or corporate solidarity. Instead, it is out of fear that what is uttered defies a corrupt authority. You’re not blaspheming God, but rather some authority or power broker. True laws cannot be broken for one of two reasons. First, the consequences are immediate. For instance, the law of tempting God. Hurling yourself off a tall building on the basis of God sending angels to save you carries with it the penalty of death, and you yourself are the judge, jury, and executioner. Second, the unbreakable law has justice tempered with mercy. Accidentally hitting someone behind you could rightfully end in a lawsuit or violent retribution. A simple acknowledgement and apology are often sufficient to escape consequences. But failure to do so results in the consequences of forfeiting any appeal you can make to mercy. The offended person may simply let it go, but you cannot walk away undamaged without making amends.

Further, it is God who creates these unbreakable laws and writes them into nature to be inferred by human beings. You don’t even need a Bible to figure them out. It is only reasonable that nations adopt Judeo-Christian laws as their own since, after all, they are as tangible as they are self-evident.

It isn’t fining someone for wearing the wrong religious symbol that’s really going to be an issue. It’s a question of whether such displays are harmful to society. Tasteless and indecent displays OUGHT to be punishable. Certain behaviors that have become acceptable in our society should as well. The real challenge of a theocracy isn’t which religion, since primitive Christianity is obviously the only correct choice, but rather the degree to which individual freedom can be enjoyed in such a society. I believe a Christian theocracy would provide an optimal balance between faith and reason since the two are not necessarily divorced from each other. Between actions that show obedience to God, show love for man, all ultimately benefitting the individual, there is a large degree of freedom.

Your point is more about artificial, false religions created to benefit the greedy at the cost of poor victims expected to live lives of sacrifice in order to keep parasites in power. The way you framed it, there’s only one correct answer to which religion/which laws: None of them. But if one cannot independently conceive such a religion that is founded in reason—that there is a God and disobedience carries consequences—then there really isn’t much interesting to discuss. But if divine laws are inferred from nature and enforced, then the question is settled. We already live in a theocracy. As long as law and order are maintained, living outside it is unattainable.

^Most of the ultra complicated Mosaic laws didn't make much sense and make incredibly tedious reading. And all the waffle abut what priest's garments should look like etc etc.

The basics are fine and Christ summed it up with the love thy neighbour stuff.

Natural laws are pretty self evident - they give us freedom to be ourselves.

I think it's very important to acknowledge one's shortcomings when we've wronged someone for instance, apologize and move on.

Exactly.

The Mosaic stuff is cool, IMO. Just keep in mind there were always reasons for them, without which they are moot. Without Temple worship, certain laws are impossible. Many laws apply strictly to Israelites ONLY. Some laws were never intended to be permanent. So it’s important to sift through them and figure out which laws do apply and in what context. USA federal code is much more complicated than Torah. Heck, the IRS code is more complicated!

Some recent data from the US on this very subject:
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... he-people/



Of course, this only deals with a specific religion (Christianity), and we cannot even expect them to agree on what Bible should be used, as different Christian traditions have different Bibles:

In fact, there are many (at least 7 extant) different New Testament canons:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_ ... _Testament

And there have historically been additional variants:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developme ... cal_canons

We can of course look to history for how such divergent legal views were resolved:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War

... not very amicably, it would seem.

"Should civil
authorities
enforce religious
doctrine on morality?"

Specific to the United States:

Technically, Church and State Are Separate
in terms of Enforcing Laws on 'the Books'...

According to Reality, at Least, Church
And State in the Current Republican
Administration in Charge are Bad Good
Fellows in Bed With Each Other to get their way...

Sigh...

So Goes the
Reality of Human
Nature; the Philosophy, the Politics
of 'Religion'; What Binds Us Together
In Bonds, "Light or Dark", or Tears Us Apart over
Commonly Held Binds and Bonds in Social Cohesion
for What we REALLY DO

in Irrational
Group think;
the Nature
of our CuRRenT 'Beast'...

Above and Beyond And Below
oF all that; Cultural/Religious/Philosophical/Political
Reality is NOT Truth of Nature's Reality; Always Relative,
No Different than Free Will; Human Moral 'Terms' of Doing Are.

{Side Note: Excuse me (or don't; i don't care) if i Sound a bit like
Yoda in my Grammar; in Flow, my 'True Nature in Light Reveals ItsElf'; heHe}

But Back on Topic, Per Evidence; Yes, Scientific Evidence, Related to this;
IT IS NOT Ethical or Loving With Least Harm, according to a Law of Love;
at Least Rationally, to Outlaw Abortion; For Science Shows that would only
Lead to More Death and Suffering; Maiming, Permanent Disability, Overall;

Eliminating Gay Marriage Creates a Road Block for Love to Flourish; definitely
Anti-Christ Again, Specific to THE LAW OF LOVE THAT LOVES ALL IN INCLUSION with Least Harm

LOVE IS LOVE
WHEN LOVE
HARMS
LEAST;
HARM MORE,
Anti-Christ indeed;
But Only if 'Jesus' is Love;
If 'Jesus/God' is not Love; Go Ahead,
OutLaw Abortions, kill more folks that way;
Get Rid of Gay Marriage, Love Dies More too...

Sure, Don't Wear A Mask, Kill Your Neighbor;
Don't Take Vaccines, Kill Your Neighbor;
All in the Name of Freedom
of Fear and Hate Revealed
Without Shame Now,
Attempting to
Continue
the Rule
of this Dark
NOW FOR REAL;
oh yeah, take Health
Care Away, while 'You are
at it' too and Kill Tons more of 'Your Neighbors; too...

Haha; Old Religions Don't have a Living Chance to Go

toe to toe with Love.

At Least
not in
my Experience...

With Least Harm...

But of Course, only
With Wandering
Voices NoW in
A Wilderness
oF iGnorance
Asserting ITs Blind Will of Faith,
IN DARK LIES OF IGNORANCE MORE...

This works for me; Sing the Truth in Dark;
Record It and SPeaK Light Out of DarK iNto LiGHT For 'Those' who 'See'..

'You' Might have to Travel Around the Globe to Do It;

Par
for
the Course...

Locality, Locality, Locality;

Living in 'Trump Towns' USA
No Longer Inhibits 'Light' From SPeaKinG;

Yeah! 'Baby Yoda' is coming BacK inTo Maturity once again..

And this 'Time', Nerds and Geeks Prepare Him And Or Her An

Avenue to 'Get Her And Or HiS OWN WaY'..

Hurray!
Yoda
Is
Back
THiS WaY!

Really Big Things
Come In Small Packages;
Haha, More Evidence UPoN A Story for Real...

Trivia Note; to end and begin this later again;
i Am Celebrating Writing one of my Sub-Chapter
Epic Longest Long Form Poems of 'SonG oF mY SoUL'
Dedicating it to my Only Child, Ryan, my Only Son Who only
Lived 51 Days, Dying on 7.24.97; i promised Him, i would never
Ever Feel Sorry for myself, no matter what happened to me; for he never
even endured one smile in life; only Pain and Suffering for 51 Days; Medical
Science Keeping
Him Alive
with
Multiple
Congenital
Anomalies
to Suffer some
More Back then;
i promised Him Greater
Light Will Come to Exist
For My Love For Him in my
Eyes to continue Breathing for Years
to come; anyway in 51 Months as that relates
to His 51 Days; on Labor Day and a Bit Sooner
i complete 6 MiLLioN Words oF A Longest EPiC
Long Form Poem Ever in the HiSToRY and or HeRSToRY
of HuMaNKinD' All words technically counted by the Word
Press Word Counter that does not have the Ability for Hyperbole or Myths either;
But of course what i name "Nether Land Bible" is only a Chapter oF A Larger
BreaTH EPiC Longest Long Form Poem Bible in 84 Months and 8.4 MiLLioN
Words of "SonG oF mY SoUL' that Effort too with 13,606 Miles of Public Dance Now too...


In Short or Taller People
Now Who Talk About one
Man Lifting a Cross; who
Are too Weak to Lift a Little
Cotton Mask to Save a Life;
or take the small risks
of Saving a Life
once a
Real Proven
Vaccine Comes to
the Table of Plenty
in Saving Life too;
They Disgust
me; People
Who are
too Lazy
to Love others
With Patience for Differences;
They Disgust me; Other than that
Fnord, Yes, Fnord Specifically; i've Never
Seen You Smile; i do not know if you've ever
Smiled; You've inspired a Substantial Number
of Words through all You Have Done Here
As All those other Folks i speak of too;
Since, i recovered from Real Hell
as a shut-in in my Home
With 19 Medical
Disorders,
including Type Two
Trigeminal Neuralgia
A Pain assessed by Science
Worse than the Torture of Crucifixion;
Yes, enduring ALL Waking hours for 66 Months;
Never complaining here about it; through several
Million Words of Writing Here, the Last 33 Months
of Shut-in Existence; Anyway, Thanks for the Inspiration;
Your Contributions to my my Personal Bible Now are not

forgotten for many

years to come....

Smiles my FRiEnD,
fnord, it doesn't matter
IF You Believe me or not...

Par for the Course....

'i Love Y.O.U. (G.O.D.)
Most For YouR
DarK iN LiGHT'

Without DarK,
THere is
No LiGHT;
Thank you Dear FRiEnD..

Last edited by aghogday on 29 Aug 2020, 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

Bravo! Well said!

^^^
Thank
You Kindly!

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties." -Thomas Jefferson

Freedom of religion means that one religion is not prized over others, and is definitely not brandished as an arm of the government. Establishment of a religion is separate from the state, and there should be no affiliation. Conservatives are misapplying and abusing this first amendment for their own self-involved interests.

Morality is different from religion. What is legal should be based on what is moral, not religious. Politics and religion should be even further differentiated than in their current form, to avoid corruption and biases.

One of my favorite examples is gay marriage. Conservatives are bound by an intolerant, religious stance that states marriage is a sacred vow of union before God, and applies exclusively to a man and a woman. They are then superimposing this on rights to be bestowed by the state. In our society, marriage allows for civil benefits as well as religious ones (an example of the kind of unwanted confounding of church and state that we know can be harmful). Either take away marriage rights for all people, including Christians (by way of not favoring any religion), or apply it equally to all people. You cannot have it both ways and still be fair.

Some of them are probably quivering in their garb that if they endorse what is morally right, their God will not reserve a place for them in heaven. Yet one can see this is not fair for homosexuals, who are equal in value to everybody else, provided your vision is not blinded by adherence to your religion, which is famously contradictory on these kinds of issues anyway. Conservatives will continue to gladly try to hijack our country's liberties with their bigoted religiosity, that is based on their subjective interpretation of an antiquated, controversial text filled with often cryptic jargon and myth, relevant parts of which are rooted in fear, shame, and intolerance...

So, they have it backwards, and somehow can't see that themselves, or they expect us to not see through it...in which cases they are respectively delusional and mistaken.

Gay marriage is a poor example. I think it’s worth discussing, but WP has strict rules regarding victim classes and what can/can’t be discussed. If someone could get banned for presenting an opposing view, you shouldn’t bring it up.

Suppose there was an ancient law against picking up pine cones. We are thousands of years removed from the first time someone prohibited pine cones, but at that point in time it was well known that pine cones were destructive to society. Pine cones represent a departure from God’s perfect creation. Picking up pine cones indicate dissatisfaction with the natural order in which God created the universe and thus brings spiritual harm not only to the individual, but society as a whole. While enforcing this rule is difficult, and while nobody goes on come hunts to root out this evil, open possession of pine cones remain an intolerable offense as cone collectors do represent a demonstrable danger to society.

Over time, cone collecting is seldom practiced, though the practice itself is known to still happen. As the millennia wear on, fears relating to bad weather, pandemics, crop failure, and political misfortune are blamed on the hidden sin of cone collecting. Cone hunts become rampant as people become more desperate or power hungry. As cone hunts get out of hand and result in the imprisonment, torture, and even death of thousands of innocent people, political and religious figures ease restrictions as more people turn to reason and away from authorities to find guidance in their lives.

Once people are free to gather pine cones, it is discovered that society has forgotten why they were prohibited in the first place. This leads to a breakdown in society, resulting in murder, racial unrest, rioting, looting, infanticide, child trafficking, drug addiction, and sexual slavery. Prisons are overflowing. Disease breaks out, with tent hospitals dotting the landscape as ICU’s cannot hold all the critically ill. Mass graves and cremation relieve the burden on morgues and funeral homes. Quarantines and other restrictions on freedom are ordered, resulting in more rioting specifically by pine cone gatherers who claim to be victimized by “conservative” leaders. People of all religions and creeds join together chanting Pine Cones Matter as wildfires and disease spread.

And before you go reporting me to mods for being intolerant, remember this: I’m only talking about PINE CONES.

Last edited by AngelRho on 29 Aug 2020, 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

If an American automobile manufacturer produces a new car that duplicates an old German design, that does not mean that anyone driving that car in America shall be forced to obey German traffic laws.

By the same reasoning, if a secular government body enacts a new law that duplicates an old religious law, that does not mean that anyone covered by the new law shall be forced to obey the old religion.

Of course, if the new law states "Thou Shalt Obey the Old Religion", then something is really messed up with that government.

It's Worth Noting That 'Covert Racism, Bullying, And Or Homophobia' is not Allowed Here either.

i'm Not Going to Report You to the Mods; i'm Just gonna tell you to Your Face
That it is Unacceptable to do this; And Also Give You An Opportunity to
get Educated on Some of the reasons Humans Are Evolved For Epigenetic
Potential for Homosexuality; for Balance of the Health AND Survival of the Species still NOW.

We Most All Know Where You Are Coming From in Your Darkly Creative 'Pine Cone' 'Dog Whistle';

Many of Us Remember, When John Hagee, Blamed Hurricane Katrina on a Gay Parade in New Orleans;
'Evangelists' Have a Long History of Blaming Natural Calamities on what Nature Provides to Help the
Human Species actually Survive.

More Specifically, too, the Catholic Church i Attend; Basically as a Volunteer Back Pew Moderator
to Regulate this kind of Real Human Evil when it enters the Church Away from Love;
i Put a Stop to it With Human Rationality And Actual Educated Intelligence; a Little
Scripture of Love Helps Poetically too; 'They' Tried Comparing Homosexual
Behavior to what They Described as Evil Hurricanes Naturally Spreading
Warmth of Oceans in Balance; After i gave the Priest a 'Good Talking'
to; the Deacon didn't do it again; Something About the Church not following
the Rule of Love,
Just Common Sense
of Love And Empathy
for those who actually
Put it into action more
than Just Words Still now.

Yes, It's a Matter of Empathy;
Caring about Folks that Walk
in Different Shoes than We Do;

It's A Matter Of Love; For Without
Understanding in Cognitive Empathy;
Love Falls in the Bottomless Pit of Ignorance.

i found Your Metaphor Ignorant and Disgusting.

Just my Opinion; Along with all the SCIENCE TOO.

I've Seen What this Ignorance Has done to some of my Closest Relatives too.

i never let it go by; without standing Up against the Ignorance; At Church, wherever.. it happens...