10 Sep 2020, 9:21 am
Wolfram87 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
the esoteric opinions of old men in long robes and funny hats.
AngelRho
Veteran
Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile
10 Sep 2020, 10:19 am
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
A lot of people hold grudges against Christians. It couldn't be because of the way they have conquered much of the world through colonization and forced their beliefs on others, could it? 
Abolished slavery. Twice. Your move, rest of the world.
OK so they used it both for justifying slavery AND abolishing slavery. But what about the suppression of women and homosexuals that's been going on for centuries? Modern Christians who are pro-equality don't so much use scripture to defend feminism and LGBT rights as much as they simply ignore the parts of the bible that say women are basically inferior to men and that homosexuals are abominations and deserve to be killed.
Where in the gospels did Jesus instruct His followers to kill homosexuals?
EDIT: Without calling out any specific person or group of people for immorality, let me just say this:
“For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”
“as it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one.”
“for the wages of sin is death.”
The point made in the gospels, the epistles, and EVERYWHERE in the Old Testament is that the only thing we are all equally deserving of and entitled to is death. I believe that every government is charged with making the best possible decisions on behalf of its citizens, many of which are decisions we dislike or change our minds about over time. If you claim the decision to destroy a person is Biblical AND Christian, you have grossly misunderstood the purpose of scripture.
The moral authority granted to government by God is to maintain law and order and to protect its citizens. Is a certain group or ideology destructive to society? Then one way or another they must be dealt with. But this is a government issue to decide. Christians cannot make the claim that our religion commands us to deal with it, only whether certain things are God’s will for us or not, or moral/immoral.
Last edited by AngelRho on 10 Sep 2020, 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
10 Sep 2020, 10:26 am
AngelRho wrote:
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
A lot of people hold grudges against Christians. It couldn't be because of the way they have conquered much of the world through colonization and forced their beliefs on others, could it?
Abolished slavery. Twice. Your move, rest of the world.
OK so they used it both for justifying slavery AND abolishing slavery. But what about the suppression of women and homosexuals that's been going on for centuries? Modern Christians who are pro-equality don't so much use scripture to defend feminism and LGBT rights as much as they simply ignore the parts of the bible that say women are basically inferior to men and that homosexuals are abominations and deserve to be killed.
Where in the gospels did Jesus instruct His followers to kill homosexuals?
Who said anything about Jesus? Besides Jesus didn't exactly defend homosexuals. I don't think he even acknowledge that they existed. Leviticus on the other hand clearly says that we are to be killed for being "abominations".
10 Sep 2020, 10:47 am
10 Sep 2020, 10:53 am
GGPViper wrote:
Fnord wrote:
So far, only 3 out of the 25 people who answered the poll believe that Christianity should be the national religion.
That's only 12% (24% favor Atheism); yet most of the discussion has been about Christianity.
That's a lot of talk for so little representation.
That's only 12% (24% favor Atheism); yet most of the discussion has been about Christianity.
That's a lot of talk for so little representation.
Christianity is the dominant religion in the US - where most WP members come from. So most of the people who don't want a national religion here probably have Christianity in mind when being sceptical of religion...
One could have a similar discussion in Saudi Arabia, but then everyone who didn't choose Sunni Islam as national religion would be beheaded (or dismembered in another manner and disposed of).
One could also have a similar discussion in China, but it has been an officially atheist country for 800 years...
Once could also have a similar discussion in India... ... ... that could actually be quite interesting...
What about over in Europe?
AngelRho
Veteran
Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile
10 Sep 2020, 11:04 am
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
A lot of people hold grudges against Christians. It couldn't be because of the way they have conquered much of the world through colonization and forced their beliefs on others, could it?
Abolished slavery. Twice. Your move, rest of the world.
OK so they used it both for justifying slavery AND abolishing slavery. But what about the suppression of women and homosexuals that's been going on for centuries? Modern Christians who are pro-equality don't so much use scripture to defend feminism and LGBT rights as much as they simply ignore the parts of the bible that say women are basically inferior to men and that homosexuals are abominations and deserve to be killed.
Where in the gospels did Jesus instruct His followers to kill homosexuals?
Who said anything about Jesus? Besides Jesus didn't exactly defend homosexuals. I don't think he even acknowledge that they existed. Leviticus on the other hand clearly says that we are to be killed for being "abominations".
If your talking about Christians, your are talking about people who claim to follow Jesus. If they don’t follow Jesus’s teachings, then they aren’t Christians. It’s as simple as that.
Jesus never defended ANYONE who sinned. Jesus only pointed the way out of sin and into eternal life, to say “your sins are forgiven. Go and sin no more.” ALL sinners, meaning everyone ever, are guilty and deserve death, no matter how insignificant the infraction. That Jesus never defended anyone, not even the woman caught in adultery. Whether you’re upset that Jesus didn’t openly embrace LGBT issues is completely irrelevant. Those kinds of things are between the believer’s conscience and God, or between society and government. But you cannot read the Bible and say “Oh, Jesus said burn witches” or whatever, so to say that killing LGBT is within the purview of the Christian is an outright falsehood.
Leave Leviticus out of it. Leviticus deals with law and order for the Hebrew nation specifically. Jesus’s intention was the salvation of all humanity. Take a closer look at Leviticus. The levitical laws applied to anyone living within Israel’s borders and to Israelites traveling outside Israel. Those laws have nothing to do with controlling other nations or imposing their moral code on anyone else. Don’t like it? Find a better place to live! Are we focused on how ancient Israelites were instructed to live or what Jesus taught us to do? Only the gospels are relevant to this particular topic.
10 Sep 2020, 11:13 am
AngelRho wrote:
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
A lot of people hold grudges against Christians. It couldn't be because of the way they have conquered much of the world through colonization and forced their beliefs on others, could it?
Abolished slavery. Twice. Your move, rest of the world.
OK so they used it both for justifying slavery AND abolishing slavery. But what about the suppression of women and homosexuals that's been going on for centuries? Modern Christians who are pro-equality don't so much use scripture to defend feminism and LGBT rights as much as they simply ignore the parts of the bible that say women are basically inferior to men and that homosexuals are abominations and deserve to be killed.
Where in the gospels did Jesus instruct His followers to kill homosexuals?
Who said anything about Jesus? Besides Jesus didn't exactly defend homosexuals. I don't think he even acknowledge that they existed. Leviticus on the other hand clearly says that we are to be killed for being "abominations".
If your talking about Christians, your are talking about people who claim to follow Jesus. If they don’t follow Jesus’s teachings, then they aren’t Christians. It’s as simple as that.
Jesus never defended ANYONE who sinned. Jesus only pointed the way out of sin and into eternal life, to say “your sins are forgiven. Go and sin no more.” ALL sinners, meaning everyone ever, are guilty and deserve death, no matter how insignificant the infraction. That Jesus never defended anyone, not even the woman caught in adultery. Whether you’re upset that Jesus didn’t openly embrace LGBT issues is completely irrelevant. Those kinds of things are between the believer’s conscience and God, or between society and government. But you cannot read the Bible and say “Oh, Jesus said burn witches” or whatever, so to say that killing LGBT is within the purview of the Christian is an outright falsehood.
Leave Leviticus out of it. Leviticus deals with law and order for the Hebrew nation specifically. Jesus’s intention was the salvation of all humanity. Take a closer look at Leviticus. The levitical laws applied to anyone living within Israel’s borders and to Israelites traveling outside Israel. Those laws have nothing to do with controlling other nations or imposing their moral code on anyone else. Don’t like it? Find a better place to live! Are we focused on how ancient Israelites were instructed to live or what Jesus taught us to do? Only the gospels are relevant to this particular topic.
Tell it to the many Christians who hold signs like this during protests.
10 Sep 2020, 11:18 am
AngelRho wrote:
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
A lot of people hold grudges against Christians. It couldn't be because of the way they have conquered much of the world through colonization and forced their beliefs on others, could it?
Abolished slavery. Twice. Your move, rest of the world.
OK so they used it both for justifying slavery AND abolishing slavery. But what about the suppression of women and homosexuals that's been going on for centuries? Modern Christians who are pro-equality don't so much use scripture to defend feminism and LGBT rights as much as they simply ignore the parts of the bible that say women are basically inferior to men and that homosexuals are abominations and deserve to be killed.
Where in the gospels did Jesus instruct His followers to kill homosexuals?
Who said anything about Jesus? Besides Jesus didn't exactly defend homosexuals. I don't think he even acknowledge that they existed. Leviticus on the other hand clearly says that we are to be killed for being "abominations".
If your talking about Christians, your are talking about people who claim to follow Jesus. If they don’t follow Jesus’s teachings, then they aren’t Christians. It’s as simple as that.
Jesus never defended ANYONE who sinned. Jesus only pointed the way out of sin and into eternal life, to say “your sins are forgiven. Go and sin no more.” ALL sinners, meaning everyone ever, are guilty and deserve death, no matter how insignificant the infraction. That Jesus never defended anyone, not even the woman caught in adultery. Whether you’re upset that Jesus didn’t openly embrace LGBT issues is completely irrelevant. Those kinds of things are between the believer’s conscience and God, or between society and government. But you cannot read the Bible and say “Oh, Jesus said burn witches” or whatever, so to say that killing LGBT is within the purview of the Christian is an outright falsehood.
Leave Leviticus out of it. Leviticus deals with law and order for the Hebrew nation specifically. Jesus’s intention was the salvation of all humanity. Take a closer look at Leviticus. The levitical laws applied to anyone living within Israel’s borders and to Israelites traveling outside Israel. Those laws have nothing to do with controlling other nations or imposing their moral code on anyone else. Don’t like it? Find a better place to live! Are we focused on how ancient Israelites were instructed to live or what Jesus taught us to do? Only the gospels are relevant to this particular topic.
Yes your right about Vayikra/Leviticus
The gentiles need only follow the 7 Noachide laws and don't need to follow the 613 other commandments.
10 Sep 2020, 11:25 am
vermontsavant wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
A lot of people hold grudges against Christians. It couldn't be because of the way they have conquered much of the world through colonization and forced their beliefs on others, could it?
Abolished slavery. Twice. Your move, rest of the world.
OK so they used it both for justifying slavery AND abolishing slavery. But what about the suppression of women and homosexuals that's been going on for centuries? Modern Christians who are pro-equality don't so much use scripture to defend feminism and LGBT rights as much as they simply ignore the parts of the bible that say women are basically inferior to men and that homosexuals are abominations and deserve to be killed.
Where in the gospels did Jesus instruct His followers to kill homosexuals?
Who said anything about Jesus? Besides Jesus didn't exactly defend homosexuals. I don't think he even acknowledge that they existed. Leviticus on the other hand clearly says that we are to be killed for being "abominations".
If your talking about Christians, your are talking about people who claim to follow Jesus. If they don’t follow Jesus’s teachings, then they aren’t Christians. It’s as simple as that.
Jesus never defended ANYONE who sinned. Jesus only pointed the way out of sin and into eternal life, to say “your sins are forgiven. Go and sin no more.” ALL sinners, meaning everyone ever, are guilty and deserve death, no matter how insignificant the infraction. That Jesus never defended anyone, not even the woman caught in adultery. Whether you’re upset that Jesus didn’t openly embrace LGBT issues is completely irrelevant. Those kinds of things are between the believer’s conscience and God, or between society and government. But you cannot read the Bible and say “Oh, Jesus said burn witches” or whatever, so to say that killing LGBT is within the purview of the Christian is an outright falsehood.
Leave Leviticus out of it. Leviticus deals with law and order for the Hebrew nation specifically. Jesus’s intention was the salvation of all humanity. Take a closer look at Leviticus. The levitical laws applied to anyone living within Israel’s borders and to Israelites traveling outside Israel. Those laws have nothing to do with controlling other nations or imposing their moral code on anyone else. Don’t like it? Find a better place to live! Are we focused on how ancient Israelites were instructed to live or what Jesus taught us to do? Only the gospels are relevant to this particular topic.
Yes your right about Vayikra/Leviticus
The gentiles need only follow the 7 Noachide laws and don't need to follow the 613 other commandments.
The only laws I need to follow are the laws that keep me happy and safe from those who would seek to hurt or kill me. To hell with religion. What is right and wrong is for each individual to decide for themselves, none of us actually need archaic textbooks to tell us what is right and wrong. What we all need is common sense. Killing is wrong, unless you kill in self defense. Stealing is wrong, unless you are stealing for survival. Lying is wrong, unless you are lying to spare someone's feelings. Too much sex is wrong, unless you are responsible and use protection. Those are my laws.
10 Sep 2020, 11:56 am
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
Tell it to the many Christians who hold signs like this during protests.
I must respectfully take exception to this post. The image shows a member of the Westboro Baptist Church protesting at a veteran's funeral service. That church has a reputation of following the "Judgement and Damnation" doctrine that is a mixture of Old-Testament legalism and Puritan dogmatism. They are, in no way, representative of all churches that claim to teach Christianity, nor are they necessarily representative of all churches of the Baptist denomination.
10 Sep 2020, 12:02 pm
10 Sep 2020, 12:08 pm
10 Sep 2020, 12:11 pm
Wolfram87 wrote:
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
Tell it to the many Christians who hold signs like this during protests.
I must respectfully take exception to this post. The image shows a member of the Westboro Baptist Church protesting at a veteran's funeral service. That church has a reputation of following the "Judgement and Damnation" doctrine that is a mixture of Old-Testament legalism and Puritan dogmatism. They are, in no way, representative of all churches that claim to teach Christianity, nor are they necessarily representative of all churches of the Baptist denomination.They are also a giant baiting scam. The church higher ups are all constitutional lawyers. They're banking on being just within the legal limit for free speech, and suing for infringement on both their first amendment rights their and freedom of religion anyone who gets upset and step over the line.10 Sep 2020, 12:11 pm
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Fnord wrote:
So far, only 3 out of the 25 people who answered the poll believe that Christianity should be the national religion.
That's only 12% (24% favor Atheism); yet most of the discussion has been about Christianity.
That's a lot of talk for so little representation.
That's only 12% (24% favor Atheism); yet most of the discussion has been about Christianity.
That's a lot of talk for so little representation.
Christianity is the dominant religion in the US - where most WP members come from. So most of the people who don't want a national religion here probably have Christianity in mind when being sceptical of religion...
One could have a similar discussion in Saudi Arabia, but then everyone who didn't choose Sunni Islam as national religion would be beheaded (or dismembered in another manner and disposed of).
One could also have a similar discussion in China, but it has been an officially atheist country for 800 years...
Once could also have a similar discussion in India... ... ... that could actually be quite interesting...
What about over in Europe?
Well, I live in Denmark, and we actually *have* a national religion, and the Monarch has to belong to it:
The Constitution of Denmark wrote:
§ 4 The Evangelical Lutheran Church shall be the Established Church of Denmark, and as such shall be supported by the State.
§ 6 The King shall be a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church.
§ 6 The King shall be a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church.
Source: https://www.thedanishparliament.dk/-/me ... -,pdf.ashx
At the same time, Denmark is one of the *least* religious countries in the world..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importanc ... by_country
10 Sep 2020, 12:14 pm
10 Sep 2020, 12:17 pm
GGPViper wrote:
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Fnord wrote:
So far, only 3 out of the 25 people who answered the poll believe that Christianity should be the national religion.
That's only 12% (24% favor Atheism); yet most of the discussion has been about Christianity.
That's a lot of talk for so little representation.
That's only 12% (24% favor Atheism); yet most of the discussion has been about Christianity.
That's a lot of talk for so little representation.
Christianity is the dominant religion in the US - where most WP members come from. So most of the people who don't want a national religion here probably have Christianity in mind when being sceptical of religion...
One could have a similar discussion in Saudi Arabia, but then everyone who didn't choose Sunni Islam as national religion would be beheaded (or dismembered in another manner and disposed of).
One could also have a similar discussion in China, but it has been an officially atheist country for 800 years...
Once could also have a similar discussion in India... ... ... that could actually be quite interesting...
What about over in Europe?
Well, I live in Denmark, and we actually *have* a national religion, and the Monarch has to belong to it:
The Constitution of Denmark wrote:
§ 4 The Evangelical Lutheran Church shall be the Established Church of Denmark, and as such shall be supported by the State.
§ 6 The King shall be a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church.
§ 6 The King shall be a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church.
Source: https://www.thedanishparliament.dk/-/me ... -,pdf.ashx
At the same time, Denmark is one of the *least* religious countries in the world..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importanc ... by_country
I think it's kind of similar over in England in regards to their King or Queen having to be Protestant (I think, correct me if I'm wrong?) . I heard that most European countries are actually less religious than the United States. Is that true?
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