[ POLL ] Which National Religion?

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I feel like a lot of people really don't know that much about Islam other than the negative crap the media comes out with.

A lot of my friends are Muslim, I'm not but from what I have seen Sunni Muslims are actually lovely people. They don't conform to western society because frankly, western society isn't actually that great. The whole drinking culture/tinder culture etc is out of hand. They don't do any of that crap. When they go out they go to restaurants etc they never really cause trouble, definitely not in comparison to British drinking culture.

There is actually hundreds of thousands of people converting to Islam all the time because of the values. It kind of helps people who have been in s**t situations get back on their feet by following the main principals. IE. Don't be a nobhead or intoxicate yourself.

My experience of Muslims is lots of young British Muslims hanging out in Bradford town centre and just living their life not causing any issues. They're really nice people to just go up to and have a chat to.

The first time I went to see my friends family his family basically wouldn't let me leave until I was so full of food I was going to pop. That's seen as a super good deed though.

It's a shame the awful Isis sect destroyed a lot of the religious reputation because a lot of western people simply didn't understand it. To be honest it's not even a sect, normal Muslims don't even recognize it as religion but straight up brainwashing. If you're interested in that there's a show on Netflix called Caliphate which explains quite well.

I've been to Turkey, Morocco and Dubai - all Muslim majority countries and each one of them has been lovely to visit. I've honestly never had a problem going to these countries. I remember when I was a kid and we went to Turkey as Brits normally do this, we had a muslim cab driver called Imin, this guy was awesome and became our tour guide and never charged us too much. We ended up taking him out with us. Friendliest guy ever, introduced us to his whole family and they were really nice decent people.

So yeah, out of all the religions I've had experience with, that one has surprisingly been the nicest and most common sense kind of one.

Also, I'm not here to argue with people I'm just responding to the thread so take what I've said how you want but I won't be entertaining negativity with a reply because I can't be arsed.

I’m sorry...WHAT???

I’m gonna go out on a limb here...heck, it’s been years since I got an official WP reprimand, so I guess I’m due a good mod-spanking...

As far as what is ACTUALLY immoral, that is between you and God or between you and society, depending on context. So, trigger warning and disclaimer: the following is not meant to be taken to suggest I think anyone, or any group or protected class should be harmed. All I am doing is explaining what is actually in the Bible and what I believe was the intended purpose. It is not something I intend to promote or debate at length, but since there seems to be confusion about what is actually IN the Bible, I think it’s worth exploring in order to clarify what a Christ-like stand looks like.

First off, the scriptural basis for the alleged hate against homosexuals is entirely in the Old Testament and is explained in Paul’s letters. God created Man and Woman, with woman being created for the purpose of staying at Adam’s side as his helper and companion. If Eve was taken from a bone in Adam’s head, she’d rule over him; if from a bone in his foot, he’d trample over her. The intention (according to the Bible, not my personal opinion) was always that they were made male and female for each other, establishing a natural order. Homosexuality is considered in the Bible to be an abomination (Bible’s words, not mine) because it represents a rejection of the natural created order.

It also represented the disintegration of society as society falls further and further from God’s will. Paul explained this. The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for the very reason NOT because of rampant homosexuality, but because of their complete depravity as city-states which included homosexuality as the proverbial final straw. Now, before you say that this is an indictment on ALL LGBT, let me point out that in the case of Sodom, the depravity had sunk to the level that the men of the city had designs on Lot’s visitors to rape them. The inhabitants of Sodom had to die not merely for being gay, but for being violent. It’s not necessarily that being gay is destructive to society. It’s just that these people who were being destructive happened to be gay. I think it might be for that reason that homosexuality was banned in Israel—partly because it violates the male-female natural pattern established by God, but perhaps more relevantly that gay men in that particular day and time might possibly have been known to be violent rapists...or, more appropriately, violent rapists in that day in time might have been known to have a preference for young men or boys.

Even in my our own day and time given a more inclusive attitude, that kind of thing is still unacceptable, and I’m sure many in the gay community agree that it is wrong to violate another human being.

The Christian response is not to ignore what the Bible says on the topic. If God said it’s wrong, then it’s wrong. End of story. But the purpose of Christianity is not to go after anyone with torches and pitchforks and ropes. The purpose of Christianity is a new understanding of the relationship between man and God—one in which all are invited who will accept. It’s not about someone’s sexual orientation. It’s about about God’s love for all of us. So I think the Old Testament is still true and relevant for Christians now because it shows a pattern of what righteous living for God’s chosen people looked like. As to how important homosexuality is to Christian morality, I think you’re going to get a lot of different answers to that. But a recurring theme that relates to ALL sin, no matter how big or small, is that it isn’t the purpose of the Christian individual to execute justice, but rather for Christians to handle their own disputes among themselves and with help from the church if needed, and only then taking it up with government authorities if it can’t be resolved. And that leaves the question of what to do with homosexuals up to society and government...NOT THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH.

All Christians can do as a group that is consistent with scripture is decide which behaviors are acceptable in church gatherings and which behaviors are not. IF Christians meeting together agree that ANY behavior is problematic, they have the right to exclude anyone they want for any reason. If, for instance, they agree that drinking is a sin and that people who openly drink alcohol must be excluded, they can do that in the context of religious community (in the US, NO ONE has the right to refuse to do business with someone based on sexual orientation; neither does anyone have the right to compel someone else to violate their own religious principles, and this has cause for a few well-known legal battles).

And because Christians are scripturally at liberty to maintain order in worship meetings, you end up with even traditionally conservative congregations that are more inclusive than you’d expect. I have NEVER seen a gay person removed from a church service, and I attend Baptist churches. And yes, it’s no secret that homosexuals have been at regular attendance at my church. I HAVE, however, seen mentally ill, drug-addicted people hanging around the church throughout the week begging for money be turned away because: a) we already have ministries that serve these groups, and b) the church doesn’t keep that kind of money in the office for that purpose. The doors are open and everyone is invited. BUT...people who show up high or drunk are a legit safety concern, and I have seen security remove people for that reason. ONLY ONCE have I ever seen a church bully a member or attendee, and that was when my wife was escorted off church grounds because a church leader was being unreasonable. That was brought to the pastor’s attention, it was quietly dealt with, and soon after those who were involved left...as in left town. The only other time I have seen anyone be excluded from something was when I suggested our worship leader hire someone to play the pipe organ. It turns out this person had been married at one point and cheated on her husband with the praise band drummer. It wasn’t that she wasn’t allowed to play. It was that she wasn’t allowed to be paid by the church to do it. The drummer had continued as a volunteer, as he had never been paid staff in the first place.

So are churches and Christians perfect? No, and the things I’ve seen and my family has experienced has shown me that we have all at one point in time fallen far short of what God expects of us. The church I spent the most time in these last several years has been far from perfect. It seems to me that “sinners” get better treatment than those of us who do honestly try to live a scripturally consistent life.

And that goes back to my original question. The Old Testament DOES very clearly say homosexuality, whatever the OT meant by that, is an abomination—or something similar depending on how a given translation renders it. Where in the gospels does Jesus teach His disciples to cause anyone harm, particularly LGBT? Jesus quite clearly laid out His agenda, and when I read the gospels singling out gays for destruction is nowhere on that agenda. And while Paul’s epistles explore the idea of exclusion for specific purposes like safety, order, and discipline, if nominal Christians twist Paul’s writings to make church more about who is NOT welcome than who IS, then I would hesitate to even call them Christian.

As I said, I’m not looking to debate it. I’ve said all I have to say on the matter. And if anyone finds that offensive, then let mods and admins do with me what they will.

References:

Genesis 2:22-24
Leviticus 20:13
Romans 1:26-27

I sympathize with Muslims because I'm well aware of the unfair way they are treated by Westerners. I mean look at my own country, we're supposed to be a country of "religious freedom" yet we have banned these people from travelling here on the basis of their religion. The irony.

But with that said, I still think that Muslims are people just like anybody else. Some are nice people and some aren't. Just like Christians. Personally I would never convert to their religion because I don't agree with their views on homosexuality, the same reason why I am not a Christian.

At least you're being honest about what the Bible says on the matter. I'll give you that much.

Pretty much yeah. They get the same unfair treatment in the UK, but when you actually go to a Muslim majority town here like Bradford it's not even bad like they make it out to be.

These "no go zones" are also a bag untrue of shite. I actually walked through Bradford town centre which apparently is the biggest no go zone in the UK according to some of the dumbest/popular media going and I ended up finding a really nice fancy Milkshake bar

Millennial Muslims are just chill people when you actually meet them lol. They all have flash cars as well because they don't waste their cash on stupid stuff like alcohol or drunk holidays to Ibiza.

I agree with the LGBTQ thing though, but that's kinda all religions made in a certain timeframe I guess. I've known LGBTQ+ Muslims though, they just do sham marriages to keep their elders off their backs.

^^^



It's Worth Noting 'That Bible'; ALL OF iT
Is Just Another Book
of Poetry Rife
With Metaphor
And Endless
Potential
Interpretations;
Whatever It Means
is No Greater than
This or That Dust in the Wind...

What We Create of Life
Is Truly Ours; Love Or the
Other Place, Ignorant And Away From Love...

Even Love; Some Love Helps And Some Love Ignorantly Harms...

But Trust me or Not; After Reading Thousands And Thousand of Poems; And Responding Poetically in-Kind With the
Similar Holy Creative Spirit Autotelic In Flow Within; Generating Free Flowing Ecstatically in River Spirit This Way Now
in my own 8.4 MiLLioN Word Longest Epic Long Form Bible Poem; 5 Times Greater than the Second Place Effort, the 'Mahābhārata' In India that is 2 Times Greater at 1.8 MiLLioN Words than the Old King James Christian Bible Taking Centuries of Effort too; with Innumerable Ghost Authors, And Copying Changes and Mistakes of Innumerable Scribes
Across the Centuries too; While i Solely, 'Souly' accomplished it with ease in 84 Months; along With 13,666 Miles Now of Public Dance in that Span of Months NoW iN A Similar River Flow of Creative Holy Spirit in Move and Repose; No Greater
or Less than Any Poem in the Bible Or Any Other Human Dance Or Song Spiraling; Just Water, Wave Ocean, Whole US

It's All Just STaR DusT in the

Wind Like Us;

How We
Color
Star
DusT
Makes
Us Real..

SMiLeS And Now
Even Science Agrees
With This Religion oF ALL...

Honestly, THeRe is No Better
Day NoW Than The 21st Century
to Be 'A Bible Writer' Thriving And Alive;
Mostly in Turn for The Reason of Science
That is Flame and Light Bearer; Bones of Truth iN LiGHT

Poetry
is Just
Flesh
And Blood
Dust Doing Its Best
to Become Organic in
Symbols That Remain of
HeART SPiRiT And SoUL Breathing Within...

The Old Bible and the Other Book Gave it a Shot;
But This IS Another World Beyond That Potential oF aLL of Us Now...

Some Folks Will Pick uP A New Ball; Others Will Be Satisfied With Plays oF old...

Never The Less Never The More Dust In The Wind We Color Now More Or Not Alive Or

Living Stagnant

Colorless

Dead...

Just
Dust
in The Wind...

-NaTuRe'S iMaGiNaTioN

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_poem

Last edited by aghogday on 11 Sep 2020, 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

To be fair, the word Catholic does mean universal, and anyone who is saved by grace is part of THE universal or catholic (no capitalization) church.

The RCC may have some true Christians who attend mass regularly, but I’m afraid with so much dogma it has parted ways with Jesus’s intent for the true universal church. It is more tradition than scripture, and that is a problem for me. If the Catholic-with-a-big-C Church could weed out Mary worship and the saints, transubstantiation, GGUUIILLTTT, and immaculate conception, I might actually consider joining. The mass really is beautiful and comforting.

I see myself as Christian first and Southern Baptist second, or rather a Christian who has a preference for Southen Baptist congregations. I’m also attracted to Assembly of God Pentecostalism because of how chill they are with speaking in tongues, etc. The proper understanding is that speaking in tongues was the first evidence that the Holy Spirit had been received on the day of Pentecost. That doesn’t mean everyone has the gift of speaking in tongues or that you’re going to hell if you don’t. But I also believe that when people DID speak in tongues, it was so that people could hear the gospel in their own languages. I don’t believe in cessationalism, either, but I do believe there is little point in the Holy Spirit causing someone to speak in tongues if nearly everyone all over the world CAN hear the gospel in their own language. So while I do believe God could cause people to speak in other languages, it’s generally not something we expect to happen. If I found an AoG church I liked better that was chill with what I believe and doesn’t have a problem with me thinking for myself, I wouldn’t hesitate to join. I’m not a Calvinist, either, but I don’t have many objections with Presbyterians or United Methodists. However, I’m generally unimpressed with mainline protestant churches. I’m more attracted to evangelical worship. Music is a big part of my life, so if the music sucks I probably won’t go there! And AoG churches always have the best music.

To answer your question: Sure, there’s likely a lot of true Christians who happen to be Catholic, but there are also true Christians in several other denominations, also. You can’t think of Baptists, Catholics, or Pentecostals as having a monopoly on salvation.

That's very interesting to know. I remember watching an episode of Bizarre Foods America where Andrew Zimmern visited a Muslim Neighborhood in the US and I remember thinking that their food looked pretty tastey.

I think Islam and Christianity both have places in our society alongside many other religions.

I think extremism should always be rooted out, but there is no reason why liberal (in the broader sense - which is how I will use it throughout this post) religious people cannot add to the richness of our society. I genuinely feel like my life has been enhanced by knowing people from so many different faiths. If nothing else, because of all the different festivals!

Of course religion is less important than the secular values we all share - tolerance, individual freedom, the rule of law, democracy - but I see no reason why people from a wide variety of faiths cannot share in those values. While I am not a person of faith myself, I have much admiration for some of my friends who use their faith as an inspiration for a real disciplined goodness. As long as your faith is tolerant of other people’s choices and does not seek to impose itself then I think it is a good thing.

If we have to lie and sugar-coat it, what sense does it make for us to claim that we believe it? And if we can’t believe it, why even claim that we Christian? I’m afraid that some of my views on the Bible have been and may continue to be controversial. But if anyone thinks that the Bible and Christianity begin and end on the topic of LGBT, that person is really missing out.

Personal opinion alert: I think that people like who/what they are too much to admit they are wrong, even when it’s clear that they are wrong. Some older translations use the phrase “harm themselves” when referring to homosexuality. I can’t (by WP rules) discuss the morality of LGBT. While the self-harm language doesn’t appear in contemporary translations I’m familiar with for probably a good reason, I DO think that the intention of the Bible authors was to focus on the evils of self-destruction, whatever form that might take. I happen to also believe in rational egoism, and I think one damaging effect of modern translations is that while they are TECHNICALLY correct, they have downplayed the importance of the individual in God’s greater plan for humanity. The worst sin is self-destruction, and it’s much more about the destruction of the mind and spirit than the body. What has happened in the church is that scripture has been twisted in the absence of understanding this concept of self-harm that the church has taught the opposite, meaning to invite or embrace self-harm though acts of senseless self-sacrifice. It’s not Biblical at all, and I dare say it’s worse than prosperity gospel scams. All someone has to do is accuse you of being selfish and you’ll automatically rethink your behavior and second-guess your own motives. I think people should instead actually be MORE selfish and be themselves without being worried about someone else’s approval.

What people ACTUALLY end up doing is giving in to victimhood and entitlement, the idea that God made me perfect just the way that I am, or snorting cocaine doesn’t affect anyone but me. They enjoy the feeling of identity or chemical highs too much to give those things up when those things prove themselves destructive. Many of us ARE egoists, even if we don’t want to admit it. But no egoist does himself any good without rationality backing it up.

The only reply that makes sense given man is the only real rational thinking creature... is Humanism.
I say that with a degree of irony with the pony in my avatar but bite me. LOL

I respect you for saying what you really feel and being real and honest and not being on three sides of the same coin just for arguments sake.

Oh lord the food is insanely good. Most Muslims in the UK are from Pakistan (we call them Asian in the UK dunno why) My friend who is Pakistan Muslim was telling me they thought all the British kids were being punished in primary school with the school dinners lol! They were pretty nice normal meals to us but to them it's all super bland because their cooking is heavily seasoned with spices and all kinds of different cultural stuff.

Turkish food as well for example is like... you'll never wanna eat western food again it's that nice. Like no wonder they don't eat our stuff kinda good. I need to go order some food now haha

I have heard of this too,I believe it's called the "Ahmadiyya movement".

You can call it whatever you want but it won't change history. The "historical facts" found in Jack Chick tracts and other anti-Christian propaganda sources are easily refuted and have been debunked.

You have yet to post any historical facts. Just because you found something in a Jack Chick tract or heard it from an anti-Christian preacher doesn't make it true.