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Which Religion Should Be The National Religion?
Animism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Atheism 24%  24%  [ 8 ]
Buddhism 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Christianity 15%  15%  [ 5 ]
Confucianism 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Druidism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Gnosticism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Hinduism 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Islam 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Jainism 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Judaism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Mormonism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Paganism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Scientology 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Shamanism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Shintoism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Sikhism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Taoism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Zoroastrianism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Other: ________________ (Please elaborate). 39%  39%  [ 13 ]
Total votes : 33

GGPViper
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06 Sep 2020, 3:37 am

Well, some Christian denominations do not formally recognize the existence of other denominations as Christian at all.

The Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church both have their formal own concept of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (outside the Church there is no salvation).

... Unsurprisingly, they don't agree on which Church one needs to be part of to be saved. Apparently, they had a slight difference of opinion some years ago.

I also noticed that some Evangelicals Christians also hold the belief that only their version of Christianity is Christianity.

Not all religions adept this "Membership Card" concept of religion (where you are either "in" or "out" depending on organizational affiliation), though. It is mostly an Abrahamic concept...


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vermontsavant
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06 Sep 2020, 4:41 am

naturalplastic wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Frederick Douglass told in his book... for good people to do evil -- that takes religion.


Any strong belief system (not just religion but also ideology, government propaganda, cults, and mental illness) can lead to "good people" doing evil. For example, "good people" committed genocide in Rwanda after propaganda referred to another ethnic group as cockroaches and later called for those cockroaches to be exterminated. The propaganda that they were cockroaches dehumanized them so it felt like they were getting rid of pests instead of people.

Christianity was never responsible for "good people" doing evil. People did evil because they distorted and twisted Christian teaching or followed someone else who did.

So your using the "no true Scottsman" strawman argument.Saying "the Christians who killed people were not real Christians" Therefore; Christians have never killed anyone.

There are 130 Christian denominations,maybe more some say,so what is a real Christian then?


I agree with both points. Christianity doesnt have a monopoly. Other religions, and also secular political creeds/ideologies, have also inspired zealots to do bad things.

But that old saw about "Christians have NEVER committed violent acts in the name of Christianity because blah blah" is a prime example of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

So... both of you get a cigar! :D

Carry on.
Thanks :D


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vermontsavant
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06 Sep 2020, 4:54 am

GGPViper wrote:
Well, some Christian denominations do not formally recognize the existence of other denominations as Christian at all.

The Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church both have their formal own concept of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (outside the Church there is no salvation).

... Unsurprisingly, they don't agree on which Church one needs to be part of to be saved. Apparently, they had a slight difference of opinion some years ago.

I also noticed that some Evangelicals Christians also hold the belief that only their version of Christianity is Christianity.

Not all religions adept this "Membership Card" concept of religion (where you are either "in" or "out" depending on organizational affiliation), though. It is mostly an Abrahamic concept...
You got the idea for sure.

In today's times many sects are more liberal but one time every denomination believed they were the only truth.The Oriental church split with Catholics in 451ce,then the great Schism of 1053 with the Eastern orthodox splitting off.Then the reformation in the 16th century.

It comes from the New Testament passage about the curse of preaching a false gospel.To a lot of Christians to teach a wrong version of Christian theology is a worse sin than even mass murder.This is the motive for there being so many denominations that mistrust each other.


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07 Sep 2020, 9:40 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:

There aren't any Christian denominations. You're probably thinking about Protestant denominations. Christianity was founded 2,000 years ago by God when Jesus founded the Christian church whose teaching has not changed in 2,000 years. Protestantism was founded 500 years ago by a man named Martin Luther. That man's religion splintered off into thousands of denominations because Luther based his new religion on books and letters that can be interpreted in an unlimited number of ways without any way of knowing which interpretation is correct.

It sounds like saying,your denomination is the only denomination,so there for there are no denominations.
Sounds,no true Scotsman to me.

The problem with hand waving everything as no true Scotsman is that it is possible to clearly define what some things are. The ancient word for Christian means “little Christ.” It was initially conceived as a derogatory term, but it became popular among disciples of Jesus to identify as such. In simplest terms, a Christian is anyone who obeys Jesus’s teachings, particularly with regard to eternal salvation. A true Christian is anyone who has been spiritually born again.

What is somewhat Scotsman like is the only two people who know whether someone is a true Christian is that person and God. Otherwise, you may judge someone based on how well you understand someone’s behavior as Christ-like. If a person’s actions do not emulate Christ, it would be difficult to qualify that person as a true Christian. But if someone’s actions are consistent with Christ-like behavior, you would expect them to actually be Christian.

Rather than risk NTS accusations, I just prefer to ask where it was in the Gospels that Jesus taught whatever it supposedly was that makes Christians oh-so-horrid people. Of course it’s typically not there, and if I’m not busy I’ll actually dig up a passage that teaches the opposite, which I may or may not support with OT or the epistles. I’ll point out that the behavior is not Christ like and that the person or people in Christian may not actually be Christian at all. Jesus even warned about false teachers, etc., so all those things were already part of our reality from the very foundation of the church.

That doesn’t mean true Christians are perfect either, or that they never do bad things. It just means that true Christians will avoid doing bad things as long as they are made aware of it. We aren’t perfect people. What I disagree with is a doormat approach to Christian life. I don’t think the intention of the Bible is for any human being or group of people to become perpetual victims. Yet humility, guilt, and self-hate are frequently taught from the pulpit. We have a right to defend ourselves and preserve our own life, even if under extraordinary circumstances that requires killing or causing harm, such as with a just war (I dislike foreign involvement; I believe our military should focus on defending our homeland and little else). We are free to do what we love and accumulate wealth. I think the biggest tragedy is that Jesus’s teachings are twisted to mean that the greatest ideal in Christian life is to be miserable people. The lesson of the rich man and the camel going through the eye of the needle is not that it is impossible for rich people to go to heaven, but rather if it’s impossible for “good people” like the very wealth, it’s impossible for anyone unless God makes it possible. Two of the most destructive influences are jealousy and greed, and thus I think these are what Jesus was referring to most often. All “true Christian” means is one who is saved. That person might be a soldier or a physician, but you do expect if someone IS a true Christian that would bear out in a change of behavior.



vermontsavant
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08 Sep 2020, 12:04 am

I certainly in no way am trying to say Christians are bad.
Sometimes Christian behavior is disappointing.
I like a lot of Christians; Catholic, protestants and otherwise.
I like the religious right because they piss off liberals,what's more fun than getting under a liberals skin and giving them a taste of there own medicine.

I would like to see Christianity owning it's mistakes and not blaming the problems in the Christian Church on the fake Christians.And calling every Christian they don't agree with a false prophet or a heretic.

But for the most part I like Christians.


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08 Sep 2020, 8:31 am

I would like to see Christianity getting back to the teachings of the Christ, and not the current practice of situational ethics, which are little more than cherry-picked subjective interpretations of what Jesus taught.

And just because some old man in a bathrobe and a funny hat says "do this", that does NOT mean he is speaking on behalf of G^D.


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08 Sep 2020, 8:42 am

vermontsavant wrote:
I certainly in no way am trying to say Christians are bad.
Sometimes Christian behavior is disappointing.
I like a lot of Christians; Catholic, protestants and otherwise.
I like the religious right because they piss off liberals,what's more fun than getting under a liberals skin and giving them a taste of there own medicine.

I would like to see Christianity owning it's mistakes and not blaming the problems in the Christian Church on the fake Christians.And calling every Christian they don't agree with a false prophet or a heretic.

But for the most part I like Christians.


Why do you think it's rational to blame Christianity for the actions of people who act in direct opposition to Christian teaching? If an atheist called himself a Jew and murdered someone, would you blame Judaism for the murder? If my neighbor identified as a rabbit and killed people would you warn people that rabbits are dangerous killers or say that he's not a true rabbit?



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08 Sep 2020, 8:46 am

emotrtkey wrote:
Why do you think it's rational to blame Christianity for the actions of people who act in direct opposition to Christian teaching? If an atheist called himself a Jew and murdered someone, would you blame Judaism for the murder? If my neighbor identified as a rabbit and killed people would you warn people that rabbits are dangerous killers or say that he's not a true rabbit?
If someone publicly identifies as a Christian -- a follower of the Christ -- and then tells people to pray to and worship dead people, should we blame Jesus for that person's apostasy and blasphemy?


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by their actions and choices, and not by what we imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


vermontsavant
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08 Sep 2020, 9:56 am

emotrtkey wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
I certainly in no way am trying to say Christians are bad.
Sometimes Christian behavior is disappointing.
I like a lot of Christians; Catholic, protestants and otherwise.
I like the religious right because they piss off liberals,what's more fun than getting under a liberals skin and giving them a taste of there own medicine.

I would like to see Christianity owning it's mistakes and not blaming the problems in the Christian Church on the fake Christians.And calling every Christian they don't agree with a false prophet or a heretic.

But for the most part I like Christians.


Why do you think it's rational to blame Christianity for the actions of people who act in direct opposition to Christian teaching? If an atheist called himself a Jew and murdered someone, would you blame Judaism for the murder? If my neighbor identified as a rabbit and killed people would you warn people that rabbits are dangerous killers or say that he's not a true rabbit?

What do you define as Christian teachings?
How many different brands of Christianity have very different teachings.

Also don't forget that many forms of Christianity teach "total depravity theory".If this is the teachings of the one true God than maybe some of the things Christians have done were justified.The question is is that theology the truth or not?


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Last edited by vermontsavant on 08 Sep 2020, 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

aghogday
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08 Sep 2020, 11:05 am




Catholic Selected Mass Readings from 9.6.2020

"Reading 1, Ezekiel 33:7-9
7 'Son of man I have appointed you as watchman for the House of Israel. When you hear a word from my mouth, warn them from me.

8 If I say to someone wicked, "Evil- doer, you are to die," and you do not speak to warn the wicked person to renounce such ways, the wicked person will die for this guilt, but I shall hold you responsible for the death.

9 If, however, you do warn someone wicked to renounce such ways and repent, and that person does not repent, then the culprit will die for this guilt, but you yourself will have saved your life.

Reading 2, Romans 13:8-10

10 Love can cause no harm to your neighbour, and so love is the fulfillment of the Law."

Oh Lord, It's A Good Thing That We Have A New Testament Of Love that Causes No Harm to the Neighbor;
Otherwise, The Priest of 'my Church' Who Refuses to Require Masks to Save Life in Mass Would Be in Really
Big Big 'Old God' Trouble; Going as Far to Announce to Folks to let them know while Masks are Encouraged
That It is Up to the 'Sheep' in the Flock to Decide Whether or Not to Potentially Save Another Life.

Anyway, i told Him If 'We' Really Believe in the 'Sanctity of Life', We Do At Least As Much As Walmart
Protecting Other Folks in the Community From Potential Deadly Disease We May Spread...

His Idea of Sin is Folks Watching Their 'Neighbors' Far Away Having Fun Naked And Doing Something
Similar to Their Selves In Free Communion With the Fun Their Neighbors Are having Similarly...

Such Naked Hypocrisy, i often Hear these Days From the Pulpit of the Catholic Church; Such
Ignorance That Kills Other Folks Dead when Celebrated Historian, Noam Chomsky, Identifies
the Dude They Supported And Continue Supporting Each Week From the Pulpit Parroting
Faux of Fox News; as Yes, More Dangerous than Adolph Hitler; Not Only to Humankind
But All of Living Nature on the Planet too; Yet, The Real Evil Is Not Called Out For What IT IS...

And the Temple of God that is the Flesh
And Blood Enjoying this Gift of Life Giving
And Sharing in Communion When Mutually
And Consensually Done this way Becomes the Evil;

When Real Evil Now Gets Away with what it does in
terms of Over 20,000 Lies As A Father Of All Lies For Real;
But Is Royally Worshipped Like A King of the Universe From the
Pulpit too With Great Thanks And Praise and Support for the 'Fake News' 'He' Still brings...

Usually, the Catholic Church is Head and Shoulders Above the Rest of the Southern
Baptist Churches in Basic Humanity of Love; but the Trump Way of Life as Following that
Leader Has Dropped the Church to a Level so Far Below Love that the Law of Love is Practically

Dead in that Church
And Jesus for the
Metaphor of Same...

Fortunately, one will find the Same Teachings of Jesus in
Other Religions that Have a Kinder Loving Touch and in
General, Among Anyone Just Exercising the Natural Naked Altruistic Nature of Being Human...

The Christian ChurcH aS A Whole Has become Not Only Ignorant of What It takes to Create Life in Balance...

DANGEROUS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS to Humanity And The Rest of Living Nature Same;

Indeed, Empirically
Measurable in Small
to Large Terms; Ranging
From Not Requiring Life Saving
Masks to Supporting A Leader Making
Jesus More the Color of Orange than the Color Of Love

That is No Color at all;

Only Love that Truly
Seeks and Finds the Differences
of Others to Allow them to Color Their Heaven
As they See Fit Doing With Least Harm to Others Truly An Art This Love Is

Yet as Far away
From the Christian
Church's, overall
Orange Messiah
Now Where Love no Longer Even
Breathes; it's Like Big Four Wheel Drives
With No Soul Inside or a Big Daddy Who Only Yells at his Son...

Yes, a Harsh 'Old Testament God' Indeed; Screw up, You Are Fired Forever;
Don't Worship me and You Are Fired Forever; Dare to Criticize me And You Are Fired Forever too...

While True Love
Neither Requires
Worship or Fears
Criticism; Yet, We
Don't Hold 'That God' to the
Same Standard of What Humans Are Capable of Doing still...

Particularly, When the 'New God' that is Worshipped is Orange and at the Bottom of the Top...

The Hypocrisy is Fascinating And Surely Worthy of my Personal Milestone And Feat Note
of 6 MiLLioN Words of EPiC Longest Long Form Poetry in my own "Nether Land Bible";
But Only A Sub-Chapter of the Longer 8.4 MiLLioN Word "SonG oF mY SoUL" as
Small Part of that 84 Month Effort in 51 Months, Since Memorial Day of 2016
Along with 13,653 Mile of Public Dance; i do Believe there is a Theme Song
For this; it's worth Noting i don't have to imagine What it will Be Like To Really

Meet Love that Breathes...

i Spent 66 Months Seeking and
Finding That Breath That is Love
Within And In Turn All that is Left
to Do Is Give and Share Free After
One is Reborn As Love Again; The Same
Love of the Small Child Singing Unintelligible
Words of Song And Dancing only The Joy NOW of
Move and Repose Lighting Up Smiles of Everyone

Around

The Dancing
Singing Child
Of Love SMiLiNG
Indeed As Humans Born as Love...

i rather Call this Love a Child than
Any Book Or Word or other Vessel Dead
of Love; even 3,4, or 5 Letter Words so Cold And Lonely Not Even Living Dead...

'The Child' Fulfilled 'the Law'; THere Was/Is Never Any Need for Anyone But 'That Child' of Loving Free...

When 'You' Teach
'Love' to 'Speak'
What Will You 'Hear'...

-me


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emotrtkey
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08 Sep 2020, 4:14 pm

Fnord wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
Why do you think it's rational to blame Christianity for the actions of people who act in direct opposition to Christian teaching? If an atheist called himself a Jew and murdered someone, would you blame Judaism for the murder? If my neighbor identified as a rabbit and killed people would you warn people that rabbits are dangerous killers or say that he's not a true rabbit?
If someone publicly identifies as a Christian -- a follower of the Christ -- and then tells people to pray to and worship dead people, should we blame Jesus for that person's apostasy and blasphemy?


It's important to distinguish between Christianity (which is a religion) and Christians (who are people). I prefer to discuss the religion since I don't like judging people. The teaching of Christianity can be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church which you can read online.

According to Christian teaching (which you can find in the catechism), anyone who worships anyone other than God, dead or alive, is guilty of the sin of idolatry. I've never met anyone who prays to dead people. Christianity teaches an afterlife where the saints go to be with God in Heaven. Christianity teaches intercessory prayer and the communion of saints which means Christians ask others believers, in heaven and on earth, to pray to God for them.



emotrtkey
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08 Sep 2020, 4:20 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
I certainly in no way am trying to say Christians are bad.
Sometimes Christian behavior is disappointing.
I like a lot of Christians; Catholic, protestants and otherwise.
I like the religious right because they piss off liberals,what's more fun than getting under a liberals skin and giving them a taste of there own medicine.

I would like to see Christianity owning it's mistakes and not blaming the problems in the Christian Church on the fake Christians.And calling every Christian they don't agree with a false prophet or a heretic.

But for the most part I like Christians.


Why do you think it's rational to blame Christianity for the actions of people who act in direct opposition to Christian teaching? If an atheist called himself a Jew and murdered someone, would you blame Judaism for the murder? If my neighbor identified as a rabbit and killed people would you warn people that rabbits are dangerous killers or say that he's not a true rabbit?

What do you define as Christian teachings?


The teaching of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus. You can find a good overview of it by reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church which you can find online.

Quote:
How many different brands of Christianity have very different teachings.


Anyone can start a new religion and identify it as Christian. Labels are meaningless. Only one religion was founded 2,000 years ago by Jesus. All modern "brands" are man made.

Quote:
Also don't forget that many forms of Christianity teach "total depravity theory".If this is the teachings of the one true God than maybe some of the things Christians have done were justified.The question is is that theology the truth or not?


Christianity has never taught a total depravity theory. That's what Calvinists (followers of John Calvin) believe. I believe he founded his sect in the 16th century, over 1,500 years after Christ. His opinions are irrelevant. I could start a church tomorrow, claim that God doesn't exist, and call it a Christian church. That claim wouldn't make it a Christian church nor would it means that some brands of Christianity teach that God doesn't exist. It would be nothing more than a false claim.



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08 Sep 2020, 4:24 pm

I would say that to make any religion "official" would say all others are not legit



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08 Sep 2020, 4:27 pm

Aspinator wrote:
I would say that to make any religion "official" would say all others are not legit


That's actually not true, there are religions that do accept the possibility of other religions being real.


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08 Sep 2020, 5:12 pm

DeathEmperor413 wrote:
Aspinator wrote:
I would say that to make any religion "official" would say all others are not legit

That's actually not true, there are religions that do accept the possibility of other religions being real.

And several Abrahamic faiths include the concept of "progressive revelation", where the tenets of another religion is considered (either wholly or partially) a once-valid theology which has then been (again either wholly or partially) superseded.

Example: Judaism -> Christianity -> Islam -> Baháʼí

However, these religions tend to have trouble getting along...


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08 Sep 2020, 5:40 pm

I like to think Neo-Paganism, though relatively new, is pretty open to other religious beliefs because Wiccans often work with other deities but honor the Triple Moon Goddess and the Horned God of the Forest as their primary deities, or sometimes they don't work with any deities and they work with nature instead. But there are Christo-Pagans who work with Christ.

I enjoy Neo-Paganism because their belief system allows you to work with any deity you want. It is about self-empowerment rather than surrendering yourself to a higher power. "If it harm none, do what ye will".

Of course, my beliefs are hated by Christians and Muslims (not sure about Jews honestly). They view it as Devil Worship and if they had their way like in the old days I'd probably be burned at the stake for worshipping something I don't really believe in (The Devil :evil: )


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