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magz
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16 Sep 2020, 8:57 am

vermontsavant wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
As far as I know murder of any child outside the womb has the same consequence,in courts of law it's the same to kill a 1 day old as a 13 year old.Once your born your premeditated killing is 1st degree murder in every US state and 95% of countries around the world.
What about a premediated killing of a 5 month old baby inside the womb? How is that any different than killing a 5 month old baby born prematurely?

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There have been cases of young mother's who put a newborn in a dumpster and there case had sympathy so the prosecution offered a plea bargain to manslaughter which has a lesser sentence,but that was a prosecutor's choice to reduce the charge.But officially the premeditated killing of any human is murder.
Unless the killing occurs inside the womb. That magically makes it not murder somehow according to some people.
That's how the system works,never said it was right.
In Poland, infanticide is a crime separate from homicide, based on an assumption that infanticides happen in a state of severe psychological distress. Punishments are mild but anyway there are little of them, about ten a year, mostly by mentally ill mothers.
Abortion is illegal with few exceptions like risk to mother's life or health or the pregnancy being a result of a rape. I can't provide reliable statistics about illegal abortions and "abortion tourism" - these numbers are unavailable.


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magz
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16 Sep 2020, 8:59 am

emotrtkey wrote:
magz wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
Many "poor" people today (especially in Europe and US) are wealthier than the average person throughout history. Taxpayers shouldn't have to bribe women with welfare to get them to stop killing their children. I think a swift execution would be more appropriate from a moral standpoint.
Apparently, your morality is based on vengeance.
My morality is based on Christianity.
Like John 8:7?


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16 Sep 2020, 9:09 am

magz wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
magz wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
Many "poor" people today (especially in Europe and US) are wealthier than the average person throughout history. Taxpayers shouldn't have to bribe women with welfare to get them to stop killing their children. I think a swift execution would be more appropriate from a moral standpoint.
Apparently, your morality is based on vengeance.
My morality is based on Christianity.
Like John 8:7?
More like Leviticus 26:23-24.


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magz
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16 Sep 2020, 9:20 am

Fnord wrote:
More like Leviticus 26:23-24.
In the tradition of my culture, the worst evil starts when humans put themselves in the place of God.
I would apply it to this verse. Vengeance belongs to The Lord.


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16 Sep 2020, 9:21 am

magz wrote:
Fnord wrote:
More like Leviticus 26:23-24.
In the tradition of my culture, the worst evil starts when humans put themselves in the place of God.  I would apply it to this verse.  Vengeance belongs to The Lord.
Amen, and amen.


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16 Sep 2020, 12:23 pm

magz wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
As far as I know murder of any child outside the womb has the same consequence,in courts of law it's the same to kill a 1 day old as a 13 year old.Once your born your premeditated killing is 1st degree murder in every US state and 95% of countries around the world.
What about a premediated killing of a 5 month old baby inside the womb? How is that any different than killing a 5 month old baby born prematurely?

Quote:
There have been cases of young mother's who put a newborn in a dumpster and there case had sympathy so the prosecution offered a plea bargain to manslaughter which has a lesser sentence,but that was a prosecutor's choice to reduce the charge.But officially the premeditated killing of any human is murder.
Unless the killing occurs inside the womb. That magically makes it not murder somehow according to some people.
That's how the system works,never said it was right.
In Poland, infanticide is a crime separate from homicide, based on an assumption that infanticides happen in a state of severe psychological distress. Punishments are mild but anyway there are little of them, about ten a year, mostly by mentally ill mothers.
Abortion is illegal with few exceptions like risk to mother's life or health or the pregnancy being a result of a rape. I can't provide reliable statistics about illegal abortions and "abortion tourism" - these numbers are unavailable.


In the US anything that's outside the womb killed in premeditation is murder 1,life sentence but as you said infanticide and filicide are often rooted in extreme emotional disturbance and prosecutor's will sometimes reduce the charges but they can go for a life sentence if they want.Abortion is legal in all 50 states.


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16 Sep 2020, 12:33 pm

magz wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
magz wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
Many "poor" people today (especially in Europe and US) are wealthier than the average person throughout history. Taxpayers shouldn't have to bribe women with welfare to get them to stop killing their children. I think a swift execution would be more appropriate from a moral standpoint.
Apparently, your morality is based on vengeance.
My morality is based on Christianity.
Like John 8:7?


"The earliest Greek texts we have that include the Gospel of John do not include John 7:53—8:11. Church fathers and others make no mention of it until the twelfth century. And, many words used in this passage are used nowhere else in John's gospel. For these reasons and more, many theologians believe this passage does not belong in Scripture." https://www.compellingtruth.org/John-7-53-8-11.html



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16 Sep 2020, 12:40 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
Abortion is legal in all 50 states.


Some abortions are illegal in the US. Here's an abortion doctor who was charged with 8 counts of murder for abortions he performed (warning - really sick crimes described about how he murdered those innocent children) - https://www.foxnews.com/us/philadelphia ... -of-murder



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16 Sep 2020, 12:42 pm

Fnord wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me that there are still some men who believe that they have the privilege of dictating what women can do with their own bodies.  It's as if those men perceive women as property, and not as human beings.


It never ceases to amaze me that there are some women who believe that they have the privilege of dictating whether children should be allowed to live. It's as if those women perceive their children as their property, and not as human beings.



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16 Sep 2020, 12:51 pm

emotrtkey wrote:
"The earliest Greek texts we have that include the Gospel of John do not include John 7:53—8:11. Church fathers and others make no mention of it until the twelfth century. And, many words used in this passage are used nowhere else in John's gospel. For these reasons and more, many theologians believe this passage does not belong in Scripture." https://www.compellingtruth.org/John-7-53-8-11.html

My (Roman Catholic) copy of the Bible comments it (translation mine): "This fragment, surely Inspired and canonical, initially did not belong to st John's Gospel, as it's absent in the oldest manuscripts; the topic and style suggest st Luke".


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16 Sep 2020, 12:53 pm

Adoption is always a better option than abortion. Certainly after the first trimester of a pregnancy, the foetus is forming in a recognizable way and should be allowed to live. When I see how precious each of my three nieces and one nephew are, I'm glad they had the opportunity to live among a loving family.

Had my sister been unable to bear kids I'm sure she would have adopted. Many folk, including many gay and lesbian couples, want to adopt kids.


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16 Sep 2020, 1:18 pm

magz wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
"The earliest Greek texts we have that include the Gospel of John do not include John 7:53—8:11. Church fathers and others make no mention of it until the twelfth century. And, many words used in this passage are used nowhere else in John's gospel. For these reasons and more, many theologians believe this passage does not belong in Scripture." https://www.compellingtruth.org/John-7-53-8-11.html

My (Roman Catholic) copy of the Bible comments it (translation mine): "This fragment, surely Inspired and canonical, initially did not belong to st John's Gospel, as it's absent in the oldest manuscripts; the topic and style suggest st Luke".
John is an unusual book, written 40-50 (110ce and the other between 65-75ce) years after the synoptic gospels and not sure why the other's are synoptic and John not.The gospels are the most important books of the New Testament but were written 20 years after Paul's letters.


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16 Sep 2020, 1:19 pm

emotrtkey wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me that there are still some men who believe that they have the privilege of dictating what women can do with their own bodies.  It's as if those men perceive women as property, and not as human beings.


It never ceases to amaze me that there are some women who believe that they have the privilege of dictating whether children should be allowed to live. It's as if those women perceive their children as their property, and not as human beings.
It's a cruel world I guess :?


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16 Sep 2020, 1:21 pm

magz wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
"The earliest Greek texts we have that include the Gospel of John do not include John 7:53—8:11. Church fathers and others make no mention of it until the twelfth century. And, many words used in this passage are used nowhere else in John's gospel. For these reasons and more, many theologians believe this passage does not belong in Scripture." https://www.compellingtruth.org/John-7-53-8-11.html

My (Roman Catholic) copy of the Bible comments it (translation mine): "This fragment, surely Inspired and canonical, initially did not belong to st John's Gospel, as it's absent in the oldest manuscripts; the topic and style suggest st Luke".


I haven't joined the Catholic church yet so I still have my Protestant bibles but I looked it up. It appears the passage is condemning hypocritical judging (judging people when you're guilty of the same sins or greater sins) since the Pharisees judged a woman for adultery while they committed a greater sin of rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. I don't have a problem following that verse. Pointing out that certain behavior is sinful isn't the same as judging individual people of sin.



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16 Sep 2020, 1:26 pm

I remind you what started this debate: you claimed "a swift execution would be more appropriate from a moral standpoint" for women having abortions and then claimed your "morality is based on Christianity".

Reading the Gospels, I find quite a lot of passages opposing the morality of "swift executions". Don't you?


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16 Sep 2020, 1:31 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me that there are still some men who believe that they have the privilege of dictating what women can do with their own bodies.  It's as if those men perceive women as property, and not as human beings.


It never ceases to amaze me that there are some women who believe that they have the privilege of dictating whether children should be allowed to live. It's as if those women perceive their children as their property, and not as human beings.
It's a cruel world I guess :?


The pro-abortion arguments I hear basically treat it like modern day slavery. The mother is the master or owner of her child who is her property that she can dispose of or do as she wishes with him or her. The father has no rights or say in what happens to his child because the child is, according to pro-abortionists, the sole property of his mother. A father trying to save his child's life is considered to violate a woman rights since she owns the child and can do whatever she wishes with the property she owns. Pro-lifers are like slave abolitionists trying to save children from their masters.