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Which "Christian" religion should be your national religion?
Anglican 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Baptist 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Roman Catholicism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Church of Christ, Scientist 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Congregationalist 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Eastern Orthodox 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Episcopalians 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Jehovah's Witness 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Lutheran 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Methodist 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Mormon/LDS 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Pentecost (any) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Presbyterian 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Puritan 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Quakers 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Russian Orthodox 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Seventh-Day Adventist 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Unification 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Unitarian Universalist 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Other or None __________ (Please explain) 72%  72%  [ 13 ]
Total votes : 18

Fnord
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14 Sep 2020, 3:54 pm

QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There was no unified Italy until about 1870.
1861 C.E., to be exact.  Imperial Rome fell about 1385 years earlier, in 476 C.E.  Italy re-formed as a Republic in 1946.  Thus, there is no overlap between Imperial Rome and the Republic of Italy.  Some Italians may trace their ancestry back to the Roman Empire, but Imperial Romans were not Italians.
I know perfectly well Italy didn't exist back then (which is also true regarding Germany, France, and most other European countries). HOWEVER since the genes that were around back then were all carried over into the countries that exist today, one can attempt to put those ancient countries 2000 years ago into today's map, and ask "who were French, who were Germans, who were Italians, etc". The answer will be "something" since the ancestors of today's French, Germans and Italians were "somewhere".
Me: 100
My Children: 50
Their Children: 25
Their Children: 12.5
Their Children: 6.25
Their Children: 3.125
Their Children: 1.5625
Their Children: 0.78125
Their Children: 0.390625
Their Children: 0.1953125
Their Children: 0.09765625
Their Children: 0.048828125
Their Children: 0.024414063
Their Children: 0.012207031
Their Children: 0.006103516
Their Children: 0.003051758
Their Children: 0.001525879
Their Children: 0.000762939
Their Children: 0.00038147
Their Children: 0.000190735

Do you know what this represents?  It's 20 generations of DNA regression.  If you accept that a single generation is 100 years, then modern-day Italians have only about 0.0002 percent of the DNA of an Imperial Roman citizen.  The rest is all whatever may have sailed into port, walked over the Alps, or wandered in from what is now Spain, France, Sicily, or the Baltic regions -- that's 99.9998% non-Imperial DNA.  Your error is in assuming that no mixing of DNA from people not native to that boot-shaped peninsula occurred.

Now, if you accept that one generation is only 20 years, the fraction of purely Imperial Roman DNA drops to 0.000000000000000000000000000158 percent -- a vanishingly small amount.

My guess is that the true value of 'pure' Imperial Roman DNA in modern-day Italians is somewhere between 0.000190734863 percent and 0.000000000000000000000000000158 percent.

Numbers don't lie; people do.


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Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature,
nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


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14 Sep 2020, 3:58 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
I think the thorn in his flesh was a metaphor for physical pain he suffered.If one literally had a thorn in there flesh they would simply pull it out and the pain would gone in 10 minutes.


I think the thorn in the flesh was possibly cancer.

vermontsavant wrote:
Sources have also believed Paul along with the prophet Mohamed had epilepsy.


Where does it say that?

I think it is unlikely because

a) I don't see a connection between thorn in the flesh and epilepsy

b) In the Gospels, the epilepsy was always portrayed as demonic possession. And Paul couldn't have been demon possessed since he was a servant of Christ.

There are anti-Pauline sects in Christianity. While most of the Hebrew Roots groups believe in Paul (see for example http://www.therefinersfire.org and http://www.torahofmessiah.com), there are distinct few Hebrew Roots groups that reject him (see for example https://www.judaismvschristianity.com/ and http://www.netzarim.co.il). So I guess -- if you were to reject Paul as false then -- within that context -- you could say he was demon possessed and had epilepsy. But if you believe him to be true then you can't really say this.



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14 Sep 2020, 4:01 pm

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There was no unified Italy until about 1870.
1861 C.E., to be exact.  Imperial Rome fell about 1385 years earlier, in 476 C.E.  Italy re-formed as a Republic in 1946.  Thus, there is no overlap between Imperial Rome and the Republic of Italy.  Some Italians may trace their ancestry back to the Roman Empire, but Imperial Romans were not Italians.
I know perfectly well Italy didn't exist back then (which is also true regarding Germany, France, and most other European countries). HOWEVER since the genes that were around back then were all carried over into the countries that exist today, one can attempt to put those ancient countries 2000 years ago into today's map, and ask "who were French, who were Germans, who were Italians, etc". The answer will be "something" since the ancestors of today's French, Germans and Italians were "somewhere".
Me: 100
My Children: 50
Their Children: 25
Their Children: 12.5
Their Children: 6.25
Their Children: 3.125
Their Children: 1.5625
Their Children: 0.78125
Their Children: 0.390625
Their Children: 0.1953125
Their Children: 0.09765625
Their Children: 0.048828125
Their Children: 0.024414063
Their Children: 0.012207031
Their Children: 0.006103516
Their Children: 0.003051758
Their Children: 0.001525879
Their Children: 0.000762939
Their Children: 0.00038147
Their Children: 0.000190735

Do you know what this represents?  It's 20 generations of DNA regression.  If you accept that a single generation is 100 years, then modern-day Italians have only about 0.0002 percent of the DNA of an Imperial Roman citizen.  The rest is all whatever may have sailed into port, walked over the Alps, or wandered in from what is now Spain, France, Sicily, or the Baltic regions -- that's 99.9998% non-Imperial DNA.  Your error is in assuming that no mixing of DNA from people not native to that boot-shaped peninsula occurred.

Now, if you accept that one generation is only 20 years, the fraction of purely Imperial Roman DNA drops to 0.000000000000000000000000000158 percent -- a vanishingly small amount.

My guess is that the true value of 'pure' Imperial Roman DNA in modern-day Italians is somewhere between 0.000190734863 percent and 0.000000000000000000000000000158 percent.

Numbers don't lie; people do.


Your assumption is that they just breeded at random. But that can't be true: surely they had at least *some* pride that would make them prefer breeding with their own. Plus keep in mind that travel wasn't as easy back then as it is now. While "some" people were there from the other countries, it was a minority. So why would they start to breed with a few foreigners if they had plenty of their own countrymen to breed with, and a national pride to preserve?



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14 Sep 2020, 4:07 pm

QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
... My guess is that the true value of 'pure' Imperial Roman DNA in modern-day Italians is somewhere between 0.000190734863 percent and 0.000000000000000000000000000158 percent...
Your assumption is that they just breeded at random. But that can't be true: surely they had at least *some* pride that would make them prefer breeding with their own ... So why would they start to breed with a few foreigners if they had plenty of their own countrymen to breed with, and a national pride to preserve?
Uh-oh...

Are you suggesting that "breeding" within only a single "race" is something to be proud about?

Did this thread suddenly become a discussion on the alleged merits of keeping a race "pure"?


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nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


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14 Sep 2020, 4:10 pm

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
... My guess is that the true value of 'pure' Imperial Roman DNA in modern-day Italians is somewhere between 0.000190734863 percent and 0.000000000000000000000000000158 percent...
Your assumption is that they just breeded at random. But that can't be true: surely they had at least *some* pride that would make them prefer breeding with their own ... So why would they start to breed with a few foreigners if they had plenty of their own countrymen to breed with, and a national pride to preserve?
Uh-oh...

Are you suggesting that "breeding" within only a single "race" is something to be proud about?

Did this suddenly become a discussion on the alleged merits of keeping a race "pure"?


First of all, I wasn't talking about races, I was talking about very small sub-groups within a race (such as Italians). Secondly, I haven't said what I personally think about it. All I said is what people historically used to think. Even if its horrible to stay within ones own genetic group -- the fact of a matter is that people *used to think* that it is a good thing and so they *used to do it*. As long as thats what they did -- regardless whether that is good or bad -- it implies that their genes are somewhat preserved, so I can map today's ethnicities to the past ethnicities, which is what I did.



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14 Sep 2020, 4:16 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
Some off topic random facts about Christianity just to pass the time until a relevant post comes along.

Most people associate Paul's Christian name as being related to his birth name Shaul/Saul because they rhyme but actually it's an unrelated coincidence.

Paulos was a Greek name meaning small or humble and was given to him by gentile Greek Christian followers because either he was humble in his service to Jesus.Or it could have because of Paul's frail or small stature,the Bible does say Paul was a handicapped person.

The Hebrew name Shaul or also Saul meant question or to ask and it is mere coincidence that it rhymes with Paulos or Paul.

What does Jesus Christ mean in English:Joshua the anointed
Greek Isus Christos,Christos meaning anointed in Greek.Which was a variant of the Hebrew,Mashiach also meaning anointed, Messiah is also a variant of Mashiach.


The Greek Isus was a Greek variant of the Aramaic colloquial Yeshua,which was a variant of the Hebrew Yehoshua or in English Joshua.

So Joshua,Yehoshua,Yeshua,Isus, Jesus all mean the same thing.

Mashiach, Messiah, Christos,Christ all mean anointed or anointed one.



From the Hebrew name יְהוֹשֻׁעַ (Yehoshu'a) meaning "YAHWEH is salvation

https://www.behindthename.com/name/joshua


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14 Sep 2020, 4:21 pm

QFT wrote:
Your assumption is that they just breeded at random. But that can't be true: surely they had at least *some* pride that would make them prefer breeding with their own. Plus keep in mind that travel wasn't as easy back then as it is now. While "some" people were there from the other countries, it was a minority. So why would they start to breed with a few foreigners if they had plenty of their own countrymen to breed with, and a national pride to preserve?


National pride? That's a relativity modern concept. The western empire collapsed and the Italian peninsula was subject to foreign conquest, several majors wars, depopulation, and demographic shifts in the centuries after the Western empire fell.

Roman's were really only an ethnicity since the days of the city state Rome and early republic. By the time of the late Republic and Empire, the 'Romans' were a mixture of the 'founders' and all the different ethnicities conquerored by those founders including various Italian/Latin peoples, Greeks, Gauls, Britons, Iberians, Germanics, north Africans, and on and on. By the late Republic the patrician class had lost its significance.

A further complication is that Italian tribes had been in contact with ancient Greek colonists since the 8th century B.C.E.



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14 Sep 2020, 4:30 pm

"Also, please keep it civil. This is an opportunity to present the specific merits of your religion, but bear in mind that people of other religions (or who may have no religious preference at all) can and will express their opinions as well.

Thank you."

Whoever it was that deleted
my Comment; Please do let
me know How it Deviated from this Instruction in the Op....

Do Note: i saved the Comment....


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14 Sep 2020, 4:36 pm

^ :?: I didn't do it. :?:



aghogday
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14 Sep 2020, 4:42 pm

Feyokien wrote:
^ :?: I didn't do it. :?:


Smiles; Thanks as Per the Op i went into a detailed
Account of What the 'Mystical Aspect of the Christian
Religion' is; Additionally, Providing Scientific Analogies;
including Accounts by Famous Atheist Sam Harris that prove
What the 'Ascending Transcending Higher Potential' of Humanity
Will Do in Flow as Assessed by Science too; Additionally, i went to
the Trouble to Provide Specific Examples in my Life That Prove this
Mystical Ascending Transcending Aspect of the Christian Religion is real and
really
Works
according to
Science and will
Be Related to Flow
As Well as i am relating
the Philosophy of Tao too;

Obviously, not everyone is Familiar
with this Point of View as Far as the
Christian Religion Goes; but considering
it is real as assessed by Science it surely would
Be beneficial if More folks practiced This Meditative
Practice of Flow; Not Unlike Eastern Countries that as
Whole Practice Tai Chi Before work at Corporations to Maximize their Human Potential too...

i don't bite; Will Always Be Happy to explain, in case someone confuses it for not being on Topic....

Anyway, thanks for Your Respectful reply...

Additionally, vermontsavant's Comment
on the Meaning of the Name Joshua
Was removed that i replied to as well;
And that is surely as Much or more on Topic
Than An Analysis of Roman DNA in Detail through the Centuries;
Yet, still interesting to me; as i like to learn about whatever comes next...

Both Comments were removed at 4:20 PM Central time in the
United States, while i was Quickly adding information to
vermontsavant's information in reply

as still noted here....

Here is the Comment Again
As Copied From Before That Was
Deleted in Context Now for Review;
i went to a little bit of Effort to Provide
the Opinion; it is a bit discouraging to have
someone's effort removed without explanation....

But Really not a big Deal; For if a Mistake is made, here it is again...

i suppose, if anyone else experienced what i experienced, they would be
keen in effort, hoping someone else would benefit as well from what Science Assesses is real...

i am the kind of the Person, who Needs Proof to Believe Something exists; So that is why i offer the details i do...



Smiles; Of Course There is so-called Literal Text Based
Religion That is 'External And Objectively Structured as Such';

Ugh, So Black And White; But No Matter How Folks Attempt
to Keep it Same; Folks Still Generate Different Meaning
And Purpose to Relate, No Matter What Words come; Yet,

To the Point that Folks Worship Different Structured Words
As Being God Like a 3 Letter Word 'God'; One Dude Dead; or a
5 Letter Word God, Allah, With a Last Prophet Receiving Holy Text too;

And then there is Mystical Religion; Poetry that Points to Ascending
Transcending Within to a Much Higher Level of Experience in Life;

Science Now Agrees with the Experience of Ascending And Transcending
to a Much More Creative, Focused, And Higher Level of Experience In Life;
Much More Creative than So-Called Normal States of Awareness to the Studied
Effect of Productivity in Creativity of 5-Fold More, Empirically Measured too;

Does it work;

Well, Yeah; as Transient
Hypo-Frontality Flow This
Nirvana of Focus in 'Autotelic' Bliss Will
Create 100,000 Words on Average, Each Month of Free Verse
Poetry in the Longest EPiC Long Form Poem in the History of Humankind
By Little Old me at 60 Years-Old Doing that Now For 84 Months at 8.4 Million
Words as Empirically Measured too; Yes, indeed, 13,688 Miles Now of Public
Dance in 84 Months too; Even Assessed as 'Legend', 'Folk Hero'; And 'He is
Everywhere', 'if You Haven't Seen Him, You Don't Get out Much'; True,
Empirically Documented in a Metro Viral Video in 1300 Community
Comments With 88,000 Views taken by one of Innumerable
Social Media Video Voyeurs All Across the Area; Over 2,000
Dance Events, i Created myself then (In case,
one wonders, How i got to be everywhere
at once; hehe, oh the Value of
Getting Around with
Modern Technology
on Facebook too)

From 'The Beginning'
On Thanks Giving
Day of 2010 Then;
Yeah; i Started Here on
this Little known Place
At 606 Months-Old on
the 'Wrong Planet; Online
As a Shut-in, in my Home with
A Synergy of 19 Life Threatening
Disorders then; i had no clue how to
Heal myself at first; Doctors offered no
Chance of Recovery for a Happy Life Either then;

i Looked Within and After 33 Months or So of Meditative
Growing Experience Writing, Accordingly More in Free Flow;
Words Attached to Emotions Again; Healing my Body From Head
to toe as Mind and Body Soul in Balance Once More; Coming out
of the Dark as the Budding Hero Archetype Story Goes until the
Point of at least by Dance, A Common experience walking down the
Road, Younger Generations rolling Down the Window of their Car Yelling

Out Legend

to me
with
thumbs
up; Folks
Just saying
they wish they
could be where i am
now; Just Free Without
Fear totally enjoying myself
in Heaven now; They Don't Call
It Heaven; but i WiLL Show You in
Over 2,000 Photos What A Smile
Looks Like When A Person Gets
Close to another Human Experiencing
this Eternal Flow of Bliss Now As Dance And Song Real...

We Will Always Call a Religion Whatever We want to;

Or Name another God or Two too; But Until

One Seeks and Finds Heaven within;

They haven't

Truly

Seen the Higher
Potential Within Free;

Science Proves this Higher
Awareness through Brain Scans is Real;

Sadly, Religion is Still Behind this Curve of
Truth and Light in Literal Ways; And even 'Atheist Hero'
Sam Harris Will Better Describe the Experience of
the Kingdom of
Heaven within...

Just A Place
of No Fear
and Bliss
of Increasing
Human Potential

iN Autotelic Flow;

i was rather pleased Yesterday;
as my Theory of Empirical Strength
Proved out True too; it's Not the Amount
of Weight As Science Shows now too that
makes Us As Strong as the Potential We do
Have as Strong as an Orangutan now; it is the
Reps of the Moves Carrying our Own Body Weight
now; Covid-19 Closed Down the Gym but it did not
close Down My "Naked Dance" Without Tools Other than much
more than the Shoes i Wear to Do it in Public Still Now in Stores;
i left The Gym Leg Pressing 1340 Pounds in March; i returned Masked
to the Military Gym, Saturday, as it opened back up to DOD Retirees
Like me again, Indeed, i did not Lose a Pound of Strength Still Now in

My Legs
of Amazing
Dance; Indeed,
Empirically Strong
as an Orangutan REAL
At Leg pressing, 1340
Pounds at 60 Years-Old
And 3 Months i still Am;

True; Already Have the Proof
of the Feat still at a 90 Degree
Angle on Youtube, 100 Seconds
Slow of 12 Reps of Slow Focused Laser Focus

in Flow;

But True too; i did have a Home Gym with
420 Pounds of Resistance, a bit more than my
own 246 Pounds of Human Weight Now i pressed
continually Easy for up to 15 Minutes like a 'Rowing Machine' too...

There is a bit more to 'this' than 'A Book', if a Person Truly Seeks and

Finds this Higher Force of Flow Within...

And to Be Clear, for the Fact Finders in the World; All the Horatio's and

Ripley's in the World;

i carry the

Evidence

That this
so-called
Experience of
God in Action
Is as Real as ALL THE EMPIRICAL RESULTS SHOW;

IN OTHER WORDS, THIS EXPERIENCE OF GOD NATURE as
related in many Holy and Sacred Texts is Irrefutable and real...

But Again;
it's Not
What Anyone
is going to Normally
Get from, High School,
College, Work, or Church;

Other than that; the Effective
EMPIRICAL Results are again IRREFUTABLE.

Other than THAT too; Most Folks Are not Willing
To actually Put in the Effort To Make This Heaven
Within Real Eternally ALWayS NoW; For What i See
at Church is the Expectation of A 'Welfare God' Providing
A Ticket to Heaven in a Dirt Nap if the 'Narcissistic God'
is Worshipped
With Fear
Enough
For the
Faux Carrot
And Sticks So Far, So Far
Away Somewhere in the Sky
or the Sea, Where Birds and
Fish Already Get Heaven More
Than Modern Clothed Humans in
'Church, Work, Or Other Organized Fish School Do

Clothed
IN CuLTuRaL
Clothes With
The Inheritance
of Flow Within Simply
Forgotten and No Longer Attained
in so much more God Nature Potential

Still Ever Doing Now

MORE

At 10 Years-Old in 1970,
The 'Jesus Christ Super Star'
Theater Depiction of Jesus as
Just A Dude, Awakened me More to
the Underlying Truth that Judas
Asked in that Movie than
All the Church
Attendance,
School,
And Work
i've Achieved
As a participant
in My Life; 'I really
Wanna know Why You
Did it that way'; it's
True the Answer is
We Must Look Within
To Find God Naked And True
As The Breath We Breathe More
With Human Potential Now; No one WHoLLY
Will Provide The Answer But 'The Naked Force' Within...

THeRE is More Than A Nation of Religion to Find; A
MuLTi-UNiVeRSE of God Nature to Seek and Find Within;
Seed of Stars FLoWeRS We Are Lamps We aRe to Shine Even More Now

As Children of The
Stars Indeed Star
FLoWeRS And
Seeds oF LiGHT
NoW We aRE True

The Best PartToF ALL
No Myth, This PoTenTiaL is Real...

Indeed, 'Good News'
And Science
Proven to
Be Real Now too...

No Need for Worship;
No Fear of Criticism;
For Faith That Breathes
This Love This Will of Life Free


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Last edited by aghogday on 14 Sep 2020, 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fnord
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14 Sep 2020, 4:56 pm

Feyokien wrote:
QFT wrote:
Your assumption is that they just breeded at random. But that can't be true: surely they had at least *some* pride that would make them prefer breeding with their own. Plus keep in mind that travel wasn't as easy back then as it is now. While "some" people were there from the other countries, it was a minority. So why would they start to breed with a few foreigners if they had plenty of their own countrymen to breed with, and a national pride to preserve?
National pride? That's a relativity modern concept. The western empire collapsed and the Italian peninsula was subject to foreign conquest, several majors wars, depopulation, and demographic shifts in the centuries after the Western empire fell.

Roman's were really only an ethnicity since the days of the city state Rome and early republic. By the time of the late Republic and Empire, the 'Romans' were a mixture of the 'founders' and all the different ethnicities conquerored by those founders including various Italian/Latin peoples, Greeks, Gauls, Britons, Iberians, Germanics, north Africans, and on and on. By the late Republic the patrician class had lost its significance.

A further complication is that Italian tribes had been in contact with ancient Greek colonists since the 8th century B.C.E.
Even more, the Roman government granted Roman citizenship to the people whose cultures they had assimilated/conquered, thus assuring that non-native Romans would inter-breed with native Romans ... sort of like what's been happening in America for over 200 years.  But we've digressed far enough.

The poll for this thread does not show encouraging results for any one Christian sect becoming the official religion of any nation.  I had thought that there would be a more significant clustering around the "mainstream" denominations of the U.S. and Europe (i.e., Anglican, Baptist, Catholic, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, et cetera).  Instead, it's mostly "Other or None".


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Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature,
nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


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14 Sep 2020, 4:59 pm

There’s been a Kingdom of France since at least 987.

There’s been a unified England, then U.K., since the time of Alfred the Great in the 800s.

A unified German Empire came much later—in the 19th century—but there was Prussia from about 1701. And there was a “German King” who usually served as Holy Roman Emperor from the 10th century.

Russia became fully “Russia” under Ivan the Terrible in the 16th century. Ivan himself was originally “Grand Duke of Muscovy.”



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14 Sep 2020, 6:40 pm

^ Apropos of nothing; let's get back on-topic, please.


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nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


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14 Sep 2020, 7:26 pm

I am Catholic, but like many, I believe church & state should always remain separate from each other.


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14 Sep 2020, 7:28 pm

I support keeping our secular system, but I am a Lutheran.

ELCA congregations are among the most inclusive around. LCMS congregations are more conservative. I have no info on WELS congregations.


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14 Sep 2020, 10:15 pm

QFT wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
I think the thorn in his flesh was a metaphor for physical pain he suffered.If one literally had a thorn in there flesh they would simply pull it out and the pain would gone in 10 minutes.


I think the thorn in the flesh was possibly cancer.

vermontsavant wrote:
Sources have also believed Paul along with the prophet Mohamed had epilepsy.


Where does it say that?

I think it is unlikely because

a) I don't see a connection between thorn in the flesh and epilepsy

b) In the Gospels, the epilepsy was always portrayed as demonic possession. And Paul couldn't have been demon possessed since he was a servant of Christ.

There are anti-Pauline sects in Christianity. While most of the Hebrew Roots groups believe in Paul (see for example http://www.therefinersfire.org and http://www.torahofmessiah.com), there are distinct few Hebrew Roots groups that reject him (see for example https://www.judaismvschristianity.com/ and http://www.netzarim.co.il). So I guess -- if you were to reject Paul as false then -- within that context -- you could say he was demon possessed and had epilepsy. But if you believe him to be true then you can't really say this.

What was the thorn in his side is irrelevant because I already conceded that your theory about the name Paul likely was more like my friend Chucky then a reference to physically fragility.

Also cancer can cause a lot pain and all I was trying to say was Paul was in physical pain.

As far as the epilepsy issues about Paul and Mohammed,take that up with Norman Cantor,a credible historian, writer and professor I believe now deceased but his writings are very available.He may be wrong but we're all the victim's of what historians teach.

Your assertion about about the demonic angle takes for granted the theological truth of Christianity.

Saying Paul could not have been epileptic because he was Christian is faith not history.

I'm not really sure what you are really arguing about.


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