Are people too self-righteous for refusing covid vaccines?

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Double Retired
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22 Nov 2020, 1:31 pm

ironpony wrote:
But even if you are young enough and healthy enough to die from it, can young people still prevent the spread of it, if they refuse to take a vaccine?
This article is from June 28. Back then they were hoping for a vaccine that would be at least 70% effective.
CNN wrote:
CNN asked Fauci whether a vaccine with 70% to 75% efficacy taken by only two-thirds of the population would provide herd immunity to the coronavirus.

"No -- unlikely," he answered.

Herd immunity is when a sufficient proportion of a population is immune to an infectious disease, either through prior illness or vaccination, so that spread from person to person unlikely.
Very recently the companies working on the vaccines have reported excellent effectiveness--greater than 90%! I don't know what percentage of the population must get vaccinated to obtain "herd immunity" with a vaccine this good...but I do know I hope as many people as possible get vaccinated because the life you save might be mine, or my bride's, or one of my many friends my age, or even my impressively-old-but-still-alive Dad. (And, who knows, maybe the life you save will be someone close to you, or even you yourself!)

I just saw an interview of Albert Bourla, chairman and CEO of Pfizer, on TV. He said in their trials so far about 10% of the people vaccinated had side effects--but they were not serious, they were like having a fever for a day. He thought that, under the current circumstances, having a fever for a day wasn't so horrible.

And I am pretty sure I won't catch autism from it. :wink:


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23 Nov 2020, 2:14 pm

I'd take the vaccine as long as it's not made with cells from aborted babies.


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ezbzbfcg2
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26 Nov 2020, 6:52 am

If you want to take the vaccine, then take it. You'll feel safer. If you don't want to take it, then go it at your own risk. If anything happens to you, it's the choice you made.

What I don't understand is this mentality that EVERYONE must take it. If you've decided to take it and feel you're safe, what's it to you if someone else didn't take the vax? If they get sick and worse, it's on them, but will have NO bearing on your health (since you've now been vaccinated).

Why is there such a desire among many to control individual liberty?? Again, if you believe the vaccine works, and if you've taken it, you're safe.



KT67
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26 Nov 2020, 7:30 am

If you prefer potential lives to actual lives, there's something wrong in your thinking.

Obviously everyone should take the vaccine. I'm scared of vaccines and I'm taking it. I don't want to risk the lives of people who might genuinely have reasons not to. The genuine reasons I'm talking about are health reasons.

I've decided to go out afterwards. Go to the dr then go out for a milkshake or something to say 'well done' and also celebrate all this being over. My family have been very cautious during the coronavirus epidemic & it will also be a celebration of us getting our freedom back.



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26 Nov 2020, 8:30 am

Double Retired wrote:
Very recently the companies working on the vaccines have reported excellent effectiveness--greater than 90%!

Pfizer tested people 1 week after the 2nd shot.

ONE WEEK. 8O 8O

So, 1 week after the 2nd shot, the vaccine is 90% effective.

2 weeks? 2 months? No one knows long term effectiveness.


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26 Nov 2020, 8:50 am

KT67 wrote:
If you prefer potential lives to actual lives, there's something wrong in your thinking.

Obviously everyone should take the vaccine. I'm scared of vaccines and I'm taking it. I don't want to risk the lives of people who might genuinely have reasons not to. The genuine reasons I'm talking about are health reasons.

I've decided to go out afterwards. Go to the dr then go out for a milkshake or something to say 'well done' and also celebrate all this being over. My family have been very cautious during the coronavirus epidemic & it will also be a celebration of us getting our freedom back.

There is no proof these vaccines even work.

They did 1 trial study.

They *assumed* people who did not get the virus , because of the vaccine.

However, it's possible , that many people in their trial sheltered, wore a mask, and that is why they didn't contract the virus.

So, the actual effectiveness could be low if people stop sheltering and wearing a mask.


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Double Retired
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26 Nov 2020, 9:36 am

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
What I don't understand is this mentality that EVERYONE must take it. If you've decided to take it and feel you're safe, what's it to you if someone else didn't take the vax? If they get sick and worse, it's on them, but will have NO bearing on your health (since you've now been vaccinated).
Even though they are getting good results, they do not claim the vaccines are 100% effective. They were hoping for at least 70% and are ecstatic that they're getting 90%+.

Which means your vaccine isn't just to protect you. It is to protect everyone.

People who had COVID-19 have gotten reinfected later. So, the virus can continue moving around in the human population as long as infected people are able to infect other people.

Masks, social distancing, and lock-downs are very inconvenient for people, bad for the economy, and only partially effective. In the U.S., back in March and April when those measures were first recommended, they did not claim they would stop the virus. They were rather openly saying they hoped the measures would just slow the virus down enough that the hospitals would not be overwhelmed.
(Americans have mixed success in instituting those safeguards and the news tells us where that has gotten us. :wall: )

If enough people get an effective vaccine then there will be a much reduced chance of an infected person even meeting a vulnerable person, much less infecting them.

But that only works if a large enough percentage of the population is vaccinated.


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26 Nov 2020, 1:11 pm

Nothing is effective 100%.

People still wear condoms and I'm still going to get a vaccine.

90% is enough to be worth it.

Heck, 51% is enough to be worth it, although if it's only 51% I'll still take other precautions.



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26 Nov 2020, 8:18 pm

Quote:
“We also don't know for sure whether this vaccine is safe and effective in different types of people, such as pregnant women, the elderly, or those with a chronic illness,” MedicalXpress reported. “Once a vaccine is deployed ‘in the real world,’ we'll start to understand its true effectiveness. In practice, this is likely to be different to its efficacy in highly controlled clinical trials.” (Read more at link)

https://www.painnewsnetwork.org/stories ... ic-illness
Quote:
Most vaccines are very safe for most people. But vaccine safety presents a big question for a small group of people with specific risk factors like cancer or chronic illness. At this point there is simply no safety data on COVID-19 vaccines in such people. Hopefully there will soon be clear answers.


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26 Nov 2020, 8:43 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
If you want to take the vaccine, then take it. You'll feel safer. If you don't want to take it, then go it at your own risk. If anything happens to you, it's the choice you made.

What I don't understand is this mentality that EVERYONE must take it. If you've decided to take it and feel you're safe, what's it to you if someone else didn't take the vax? If they get sick and worse, it's on them, but will have NO bearing on your health (since you've now been vaccinated).

Why is there such a desire among many to control individual liberty?? Again, if you believe the vaccine works, and if you've taken it, you're safe.


The idea is that the virus needs to be completely eradicated.

And unless everyone and their cousin gets vaccinated, that's not going to happen.

I wonder if they're going to start vaccinating babies as soon as they're born.


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26 Nov 2020, 8:48 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
Double Retired wrote:
Very recently the companies working on the vaccines have reported excellent effectiveness--greater than 90%!

Pfizer tested people 1 week after the 2nd shot.

ONE WEEK. 8O 8O

So, 1 week after the 2nd shot, the vaccine is 90% effective.

2 weeks? 2 months? No one knows long term effectiveness.


There's absolutely nothing suspicious about that :roll:


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Double Retired
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26 Nov 2020, 10:29 pm

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
Quote:
“We also don't know for sure whether this vaccine is safe and effective in different types of people, such as pregnant women, the elderly, or those with a chronic illness,” MedicalXpress reported. “Once a vaccine is deployed ‘in the real world,’ we'll start to understand its true effectiveness. In practice, this is likely to be different to its efficacy in highly controlled clinical trials.” (Read more at link)

https://www.painnewsnetwork.org/stories ... ic-illness
Quote:
Most vaccines are very safe for most people. But vaccine safety presents a big question for a small group of people with specific risk factors like cancer or chronic illness. At this point there is simply no safety data on COVID-19 vaccines in such people. Hopefully there will soon be clear answers.
https://www.painnewsnetwork.org/stories/2020/11/20/covid-19-vaccines-may-not-be-recommended-for-people-with-chronic-illness

"...The CDC cautions that anyone with a “weakened immune system, or has a parent, brother, or sister with a history of hereditary or congenital immune system problems” should talk to their doctor before being vaccinated. People who have had any other vaccines in the past 4 weeks should also consult with a provider first. ..."

Fair enough.

P.S. Looking through this thread I notice that some folk say they would refuse to get the vaccine because they don't know what is in it. Using that criteria there are a lot of things I could not eat or take. When you dine out you really don't know what exactly is in that meal. (What is in the meatballs? Meatloaf? Crab cake? Gravy? Soft drink? Colonel Sanders' secret recipe?) And even if you read the ingredients of your over-the-counter medications are you much the wiser?


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27 Nov 2020, 12:28 am

Double Retired wrote:
P.S. Looking through this thread I notice that some folk say they would refuse to get the vaccine because they don't know what is in it. Using that criteria there are a lot of things I could not eat or take.

I have yet to encounter people who are refusing to breathe until they know what's in the air.

[/quote] And even if you read the ingredients of your over-the-counter medications are you much the wiser?[/quote]
Sometimes not without postgraduate chemistry and pharmacology. Or at least 8 weeks of online research.

I say these things as a person for whom there are 3 known and common medications which can make me dead instead of cured. And Dad and his sister and I all have a history of sometimes odd responses to medications.


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27 Nov 2020, 4:48 am

Double Retired wrote:
ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
What I don't understand is this mentality that EVERYONE must take it. If you've decided to take it and feel you're safe, what's it to you if someone else didn't take the vax? If they get sick and worse, it's on them, but will have NO bearing on your health (since you've now been vaccinated).
Even though they are getting good results, they do not claim the vaccines are 100% effective. They were hoping for at least 70% and are ecstatic that they're getting 90%+.

Which means your vaccine isn't just to protect you. It is to protect everyone.

Moderna boss says COVID-19 vaccine not proven to stop spread of virus
Quote:
Moderna’s coronavirus vaccine may not get life back to normal right away because it hasn’t yet been proven to prevent the deadly bug from spreading, the company’s top doctor says.

Research has shown that the biotech firm’s shot is effective at preventing people from getting sick with COVID-19, but there’s no hard evidence that it stops them from carrying the virus “transiently” and potentially infecting others who haven’t been vaccinated, according to Dr. Tal Zaks, Moderna’s chief medical officer.

“Do I believe that it reduces transmission? Absolutely yes, and I say this because of the science,” he added. “But absent proof, I think it’s important that we don’t change behaviors solely on the basis of vaccination.”


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27 Nov 2020, 9:44 am

On the Netflix Coronavirus series, they say the only virus that has been successfully eradicated is smallpox.


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28 Nov 2020, 10:40 am

Donald Morton wrote:
KT67 wrote:
More selfish than self-righteous.

The self-righteous thing would be taking it if it hadn't been developed (as it has) by scientists who underwent peer review.




You are absolutely correct, but I would include that those who intend to refuse COVID vaccinations lack intellect and empathy.


What?

I have spinocerebellar ataxia, which is a progressive, untreatable, and life shortening neurological disease. My son has a 50/50 chance of having it as well. Neither of us can take any new vaccine due to the risk of neurological side effects. My neurologist already told me he’d write me a note.

Some of us really can’t get these vaccines. Sorry.