Portland is Clearing Out the Homeless Camps
29 Nov 2020, 11:20 am
When I was a child, my city was full of homeless junkies.
Now, it's not.
A lot has happened in the meantime, I'm not sure which factors made the biggest difference. Pity - it would be valuable to learn.
Something I noticed: in city-run public toilets, there are directions to city and charity-run baths, food distributors and shelters. It's possible there is more networking to help people out of hopelessness.
_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.
<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>
29 Nov 2020, 11:34 am
SocOfAutism wrote:
Fnord, I am shocked that you were ever homeless. There must have been extreme circumstances at play...
Long-term illness, loss of employment, and a faithless wife were all it took to put me out on the streets.Hard work, determination, and a "Me First & Only Me" attitude were what brought me out of it.
Here is something for you to chew on: You might think that my experiences would be valued by social workers focusing on the "Homeless Problem"; but no, the committees I worked with were more interested in acquiring consensus opinion about the causes and cures of homelessness than they were in learning about what homelessness is really all about. Each social worker had his or her own favorite ideas and agendas to advance, and each one also looked to me to affirm and support those ideas and agendas against all others. When my experiential knowledge clashed with their book-based learning, each one would quickly disavow any association with me and move on to their surveys, studies, research papers, and grant applications.
As long as Social Workers continue to ignore what really goes on with the homeless population, relying solely on book-learning and consensus opinion among their peers, the "Homeless Problem" will continue in perpetuity.
_________________
29 Nov 2020, 11:40 am
Fnord wrote:
SocOfAutism wrote:
I feel like there must be some way to make them useful...
Having once been homeless, and having lived among other homeless people, there are some things about "The Homeless" that you can count on -- they hate structure, and you cannot "make" them be or do anything they do not want to be or do.Several communities around here have tried the rehabilitative approach: "We will give you a small place to live, and all you have to do is stay off drugs, stay sober, stay out of trouble, get a job, and check in regularly with your social worker."
Simple, right?
Wrong.
A place fit for one person soon becomes a flop-house for many, with the original tenant charging "rent" in whatever form he or she can collect from the other tenants, many of whom are parole violators, junkies, dealers, prostitutes, and pimps. These flop-houses often become "Shooting Galleries" where junkies go to buy and use illegal narcotics. Some turn into "Love Shacks" where local prostitutes take their customers to engage in their business. If the cops want to locate a parole violator, one of the first places they will look is one of these "Homeless Projects".
My city convinced a national hotel chain to let them rent an entire building for just such a project. It was cancelled after about 8 months. Once everyone inside was relocated, it was found that most of the appliances and fixtures were either missing or damaged. Much of the copper wiring had been removed (and likely sold as scrap). Holes had been kicked or punched into walls, there was human waste and used drug paraphernalia everywhere, and it took almost two years for the hotel chain to bring it all back up to code (at the city's expense, of course).
So if you want to help the homeless, not only do you have to provide shelter, food, clothing, and medical care, you also have to "re-educate" them into behaving respectfully toward rules, laws, and other people's property.
Pretty much hit the nail on the head. Homelessness is usually a symptom of other problems like drug abuse and serious mental health issues. People who became homeless through bad luck usually pick themselves up very quickly. Long term homeless people are often homeless because they have serious problems holding down a job or spend an absolute fortune on a drug habit. Giving the latter a home will do pretty much nothing to help them.
29 Nov 2020, 11:52 am
Nades wrote:
Fnord wrote:
SocOfAutism wrote:
I feel like there must be some way to make them useful...
Having once been homeless, and having lived among other homeless people, there are some things about "The Homeless" that you can count on -- they hate structure, and you cannot "make" them be or do anything they do not want to be or do.Several communities around here have tried the rehabilitative approach: "We will give you a small place to live, and all you have to do is stay off drugs, stay sober, stay out of trouble, get a job, and check in regularly with your social worker."
Simple, right?
Wrong.
A place fit for one person soon becomes a flop-house for many, with the original tenant charging "rent" in whatever form he or she can collect from the other tenants, many of whom are parole violators, junkies, dealers, prostitutes, and pimps. These flop-houses often become "Shooting Galleries" where junkies go to buy and use illegal narcotics. Some turn into "Love Shacks" where local prostitutes take their customers to engage in their business. If the cops want to locate a parole violator, one of the first places they will look is one of these "Homeless Projects".
My city convinced a national hotel chain to let them rent an entire building for just such a project. It was cancelled after about 8 months. Once everyone inside was relocated, it was found that most of the appliances and fixtures were either missing or damaged. Much of the copper wiring had been removed (and likely sold as scrap). Holes had been kicked or punched into walls, there was human waste and used drug paraphernalia everywhere, and it took almost two years for the hotel chain to bring it all back up to code (at the city's expense, of course).
So if you want to help the homeless, not only do you have to provide shelter, food, clothing, and medical care, you also have to "re-educate" them into behaving respectfully toward rules, laws, and other people's property.
_________________
29 Nov 2020, 12:02 pm
magz wrote:
When I was a child, my city was full of homeless junkies.
Now, it's not.
A lot has happened in the meantime, I'm not sure which factors made the biggest difference. Pity - it would be valuable to learn.
Something I noticed: in city-run public toilets, there are directions to city and charity-run baths, food distributors and shelters. It's possible there is more networking to help people out of hopelessness.
Now, it's not.
A lot has happened in the meantime, I'm not sure which factors made the biggest difference. Pity - it would be valuable to learn.
Something I noticed: in city-run public toilets, there are directions to city and charity-run baths, food distributors and shelters. It's possible there is more networking to help people out of hopelessness.
When the Warsaw Pact collapsed, the transition to a "market-based" economy was rather abrupt in Poland, as I can recall having read in the news at that time. It would be surprising to me to NOT see a lot of substance abuse and economic despair under those circumstances. Clearly Poland's economy developed over subsequent decades and has "normalized" to the point where social ills no longer run rampant.
Speaking of former Warsaw pact in general. One time I was bored and decided to Google Street view through Győr, Hungary (a city through which I had ridden in a tourist coach back in 1971) and what surprised me the most was that all (or almost all) the cars I saw parked along the street were "economy" cars, whereas on any street in Western Europe you see tons of Mercedes and BMWs (no idea at the moment how this compares to Poland). So it seems there is still some disparity between those parts of Europe.
29 Nov 2020, 12:03 pm
Nades wrote:
Fnord wrote:
SocOfAutism wrote:
I feel like there must be some way to make them useful...
Having once been homeless, and having lived among other homeless people, there are some things about "The Homeless" that you can count on -- they hate structure, and you cannot "make" them be or do anything they do not want to be or do.Several communities around here have tried the rehabilitative approach: "We will give you a small place to live, and all you have to do is stay off drugs, stay sober, stay out of trouble, get a job, and check in regularly with your social worker."
Simple, right?
Wrong.
A place fit for one person soon becomes a flop-house for many, with the original tenant charging "rent" in whatever form he or she can collect from the other tenants, many of whom are parole violators, junkies, dealers, prostitutes, and pimps. These flop-houses often become "Shooting Galleries" where junkies go to buy and use illegal narcotics. Some turn into "Love Shacks" where local prostitutes take their customers to engage in their business. If the cops want to locate a parole violator, one of the first places they will look is one of these "Homeless Projects".
My city convinced a national hotel chain to let them rent an entire building for just such a project. It was cancelled after about 8 months. Once everyone inside was relocated, it was found that most of the appliances and fixtures were either missing or damaged. Much of the copper wiring had been removed (and likely sold as scrap). Holes had been kicked or punched into walls, there was human waste and used drug paraphernalia everywhere, and it took almost two years for the hotel chain to bring it all back up to code (at the city's expense, of course).
So if you want to help the homeless, not only do you have to provide shelter, food, clothing, and medical care, you also have to "re-educate" them into behaving respectfully toward rules, laws, and other people's property.
Pretty much hit the nail on the head. Homelessness is usually a symptom of other problems like drug abuse and serious mental health issues. People who became homeless through bad luck usually pick themselves up very quickly. Long term homeless people are often homeless because they have serious problems holding down a job or spend an absolute fortune on a drug habit. Giving the latter a home will do pretty much nothing to help them.
Someone I knew at my work couldn't seem to keep a roof over her head. She had a home off and on and then something would always go wrong in the home she is renting and they would be homeless again. It was like she was always full of bad luck or she was just picky about her home and if it wasn't perfect, she would move out. But I always wonder if she did drugs or something because she couldn't keep a roof over her head. Her husband was too disabled to work and he got Social Security and she did not.
And all her friends lived in apartments so she had no place to stay. She even had two kids that were taken by the state and adopted out. She claims it was because they were homeless and claims the judge told her she is not allowed to have anymore kids unless she makes $100,000 a year. Basically that judge was telling her she is not allowed to have more children by giving her a ridiculous standard because many people do not make that much and they still have kids. Plus we have assistance to help parents like healthcare for kids, food stamps, daycare assistance, WIC.
_________________
Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed.
Daughter: NT, no diagnoses.
29 Nov 2020, 12:14 pm
Nades wrote:
Pretty much hit the nail on the head. Homelessness is usually a symptom of other problems like drug abuse and serious mental health issues. People who became homeless through bad luck usually pick themselves up very quickly. Long term homeless people are often homeless because they have serious problems holding down a job or spend an absolute fortune on a drug habit. Giving the latter a home will do pretty much nothing to help them.
Another possible risk factor might be a false sense of entitlement. I can remember an interview with homeless Jew in the US who remarked that he'd grown up not thinking that homelessness was something that happened to American Jews. My family, who were "social climbers", had some of this effect on me. Fortunately when I met some adversity later in life, it wasn't bad enough to put me on the street and I eventually developed some "grit". But I can see how under slightly different circumstances I could have ended up in that situation and would have had far less chance of overcoming it than did Fnord.
29 Nov 2020, 12:20 pm
League_Girl wrote:
Nades wrote:
Fnord wrote:
SocOfAutism wrote:
I feel like there must be some way to make them useful...
Having once been homeless, and having lived among other homeless people, there are some things about "The Homeless" that you can count on -- they hate structure, and you cannot "make" them be or do anything they do not want to be or do.Several communities around here have tried the rehabilitative approach: "We will give you a small place to live, and all you have to do is stay off drugs, stay sober, stay out of trouble, get a job, and check in regularly with your social worker."
Simple, right?
Wrong.
A place fit for one person soon becomes a flop-house for many, with the original tenant charging "rent" in whatever form he or she can collect from the other tenants, many of whom are parole violators, junkies, dealers, prostitutes, and pimps. These flop-houses often become "Shooting Galleries" where junkies go to buy and use illegal narcotics. Some turn into "Love Shacks" where local prostitutes take their customers to engage in their business. If the cops want to locate a parole violator, one of the first places they will look is one of these "Homeless Projects".
My city convinced a national hotel chain to let them rent an entire building for just such a project. It was cancelled after about 8 months. Once everyone inside was relocated, it was found that most of the appliances and fixtures were either missing or damaged. Much of the copper wiring had been removed (and likely sold as scrap). Holes had been kicked or punched into walls, there was human waste and used drug paraphernalia everywhere, and it took almost two years for the hotel chain to bring it all back up to code (at the city's expense, of course).
So if you want to help the homeless, not only do you have to provide shelter, food, clothing, and medical care, you also have to "re-educate" them into behaving respectfully toward rules, laws, and other people's property.
Pretty much hit the nail on the head. Homelessness is usually a symptom of other problems like drug abuse and serious mental health issues. People who became homeless through bad luck usually pick themselves up very quickly. Long term homeless people are often homeless because they have serious problems holding down a job or spend an absolute fortune on a drug habit. Giving the latter a home will do pretty much nothing to help them.
Someone I knew at my work couldn't seem to keep a roof over her head. She had a home off and on and then something would always go wrong in the home she is renting and they would be homeless again. It was like she was always full of bad luck or she was just picky about her home and if it wasn't perfect, she would move out. But I always wonder if she did drugs or something because she couldn't keep a roof over her head. Her husband was too disabled to work and he got Social Security and she did not.
And all her friends lived in apartments so she had no place to stay. She even had two kids that were taken by the state and adopted out. She claims it was because they were homeless and claims the judge told her she is not allowed to have anymore kids unless she makes $100,000 a year. Basically that judge was telling her she is not allowed to have more children by giving her a ridiculous standard because many people do not make that much and they still have kids. Plus we have assistance to help parents like healthcare for kids, food stamps, daycare assistance, WIC.
If a judge tells someone they're not to have any more kids unless they make double the average salary then the chances are their household was completely dysfunctional and riddled with substance abuse. If a judge deemed the only way to restore order was to for her to devote her entire life to wage slaving then that tells me she was probably on drugs personally. If she needed that much money to keep her kids then she was spending a lot of it on something.
I noticed people rarely just lose their house for no reason. Bad luck always happens and those with bad luck pick themselves up quickly or at least have some good relations with enough people to not be stuck on the streets. The people who do lose their homes and stay homeless have probably trashed them, abused people around them, become addicted to drink or drugs and can't hold down any kind of job. These are the people that can't be housed and many of them are sadly a lost cause.
29 Nov 2020, 12:24 pm
MaxE wrote:
Nades wrote:
Pretty much hit the nail on the head. Homelessness is usually a symptom of other problems like drug abuse and serious mental health issues. People who became homeless through bad luck usually pick themselves up very quickly. Long term homeless people are often homeless because they have serious problems holding down a job or spend an absolute fortune on a drug habit. Giving the latter a home will do pretty much nothing to help them.
Another possible risk factor might be a false sense of entitlement. I can remember an interview with homeless Jew in the US who remarked that he'd grown up not thinking that homelessness was something that happened to American Jews. My family, who were "social climbers", had some of this effect on me. Fortunately when I met some adversity later in life, it wasn't bad enough to put me on the street and I eventually developed some "grit". But I can see how under slightly different circumstances I could have ended up in that situation and would have had far less chance of overcoming it than did Fnord.
That might be a contributing factor to some but I think it's very rare.
29 Nov 2020, 12:27 pm
League_Girl wrote:
... She claims it was because they were homeless and claims the judge told her she is not allowed to have anymore kids unless she makes $100,000 a year. Basically...
Basically, if I had to make an assumption, I would assume that she was telling you a story so that it would not seem as of she was at fault for the problems she caused.
_________________
29 Nov 2020, 12:32 pm
Fnord wrote:
Nades wrote:
Fnord wrote:
SocOfAutism wrote:
I feel like there must be some way to make them useful...
Having once been homeless, and having lived among other homeless people, there are some things about "The Homeless" that you can count on -- they hate structure, and you cannot "make" them be or do anything they do not want to be or do.Several communities around here have tried the rehabilitative approach: "We will give you a small place to live, and all you have to do is stay off drugs, stay sober, stay out of trouble, get a job, and check in regularly with your social worker."
Simple, right?
Wrong.
A place fit for one person soon becomes a flop-house for many, with the original tenant charging "rent" in whatever form he or she can collect from the other tenants, many of whom are parole violators, junkies, dealers, prostitutes, and pimps. These flop-houses often become "Shooting Galleries" where junkies go to buy and use illegal narcotics. Some turn into "Love Shacks" where local prostitutes take their customers to engage in their business. If the cops want to locate a parole violator, one of the first places they will look is one of these "Homeless Projects".
My city convinced a national hotel chain to let them rent an entire building for just such a project. It was cancelled after about 8 months. Once everyone inside was relocated, it was found that most of the appliances and fixtures were either missing or damaged. Much of the copper wiring had been removed (and likely sold as scrap). Holes had been kicked or punched into walls, there was human waste and used drug paraphernalia everywhere, and it took almost two years for the hotel chain to bring it all back up to code (at the city's expense, of course).
So if you want to help the homeless, not only do you have to provide shelter, food, clothing, and medical care, you also have to "re-educate" them into behaving respectfully toward rules, laws, and other people's property.
The view of many do gooders is that all the dysfunctional behaviour from the homeless is because they lost their homes and the behaviours developed as a coping mechanism.
I noticed however that it's usually the other way around. They cause problems with the landlord, never pay rent, vandalise the house, never look after it, don't have a job, associate with like minded people who also cause serious problems (I've seen this first hand), the police are around every week and eventually they get kicked out of their house by an exasperated landlord who is now sick to death of their s**t. Because the behaviour that resulted in them being kicked out is simply part of their lifestyle and how they live their life they usually can't get back off the streets because they don't know and don't have a mentality of a responsible adult who can hold down the roof over their head.
The homeless problem is actually very little to do with homes in my eyes. Homes are pretty much all the way down the bottom of the "to do" list.
29 Nov 2020, 12:35 pm
Fnord wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
... She claims it was because they were homeless and claims the judge told her she is not allowed to have anymore kids unless she makes $100,000 a year. Basically...
Basically, if I had to make an assumption, I would assume that she was telling you a story so that it would not seem as of she was at fault for the problems she caused.And that yes. If she did lie then she didn't even do a very good job of it. I personally think she had a penchant for the crack pipe and hit it so hard social services could hear the crackling from miles away. That or they were just sober but terrible parents.
29 Nov 2020, 12:37 pm
Nades wrote:
MaxE wrote:
Nades wrote:
Pretty much hit the nail on the head. Homelessness is usually a symptom of other problems like drug abuse and serious mental health issues. People who became homeless through bad luck usually pick themselves up very quickly. Long term homeless people are often homeless because they have serious problems holding down a job or spend an absolute fortune on a drug habit. Giving the latter a home will do pretty much nothing to help them.
Another possible risk factor might be a false sense of entitlement. I can remember an interview with homeless Jew in the US who remarked that he'd grown up not thinking that homelessness was something that happened to American Jews. My family, who were "social climbers", had some of this effect on me. Fortunately when I met some adversity later in life, it wasn't bad enough to put me on the street and I eventually developed some "grit". But I can see how under slightly different circumstances I could have ended up in that situation and would have had far less chance of overcoming it than did Fnord.
That might be a contributing factor to some but I think it's very rare.
It may be rare because relatively few people are in that situation. It may be more likely in the US than in Wales. It could have also been a factor in Poland 30 years ago as some people there may have grown up believing that Marxism is proof against homelessness.
29 Nov 2020, 12:48 pm
MaxE wrote:
Nades wrote:
MaxE wrote:
Nades wrote:
Pretty much hit the nail on the head. Homelessness is usually a symptom of other problems like drug abuse and serious mental health issues. People who became homeless through bad luck usually pick themselves up very quickly. Long term homeless people are often homeless because they have serious problems holding down a job or spend an absolute fortune on a drug habit. Giving the latter a home will do pretty much nothing to help them.
Another possible risk factor might be a false sense of entitlement. I can remember an interview with homeless Jew in the US who remarked that he'd grown up not thinking that homelessness was something that happened to American Jews. My family, who were "social climbers", had some of this effect on me. Fortunately when I met some adversity later in life, it wasn't bad enough to put me on the street and I eventually developed some "grit". But I can see how under slightly different circumstances I could have ended up in that situation and would have had far less chance of overcoming it than did Fnord.
That might be a contributing factor to some but I think it's very rare.
It may be rare because relatively few people are in that situation. It may be more likely in the US than in Wales. It could have also been a factor in Poland 30 years ago as some people there may have grown up believing that Marxism is proof against homelessness.
It'll be interesting finding out why he became homeless. It's not often that someone who was once well off ends up on the streets. Seeing he was Jewish he probably had good etiquette and common sense like many Jewish families teach I imagine he is no longer homeless anymore. Becoming homeless from a high flying life must have been rough though.
29 Nov 2020, 1:13 pm
Nades wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Nades wrote:
Fnord wrote:
SocOfAutism wrote:
I feel like there must be some way to make them useful...
Having once been homeless, and having lived among other homeless people, there are some things about "The Homeless" that you can count on -- they hate structure, and you cannot "make" them be or do anything they do not want to be or do.Several communities around here have tried the rehabilitative approach: "We will give you a small place to live, and all you have to do is stay off drugs, stay sober, stay out of trouble, get a job, and check in regularly with your social worker."
Simple, right?
Wrong.
A place fit for one person soon becomes a flop-house for many, with the original tenant charging "rent" in whatever form he or she can collect from the other tenants, many of whom are parole violators, junkies, dealers, prostitutes, and pimps. These flop-houses often become "Shooting Galleries" where junkies go to buy and use illegal narcotics. Some turn into "Love Shacks" where local prostitutes take their customers to engage in their business. If the cops want to locate a parole violator, one of the first places they will look is one of these "Homeless Projects".
My city convinced a national hotel chain to let them rent an entire building for just such a project. It was cancelled after about 8 months. Once everyone inside was relocated, it was found that most of the appliances and fixtures were either missing or damaged. Much of the copper wiring had been removed (and likely sold as scrap). Holes had been kicked or punched into walls, there was human waste and used drug paraphernalia everywhere, and it took almost two years for the hotel chain to bring it all back up to code (at the city's expense, of course).
So if you want to help the homeless, not only do you have to provide shelter, food, clothing, and medical care, you also have to "re-educate" them into behaving respectfully toward rules, laws, and other people's property.
Pretty much hit the nail on the head. Homelessness is usually a symptom of other problems like drug abuse and serious mental health issues. People who became homeless through bad luck usually pick themselves up very quickly. Long term homeless people are often homeless because they have serious problems holding down a job or spend an absolute fortune on a drug habit. Giving the latter a home will do pretty much nothing to help them.
Someone I knew at my work couldn't seem to keep a roof over her head. She had a home off and on and then something would always go wrong in the home she is renting and they would be homeless again. It was like she was always full of bad luck or she was just picky about her home and if it wasn't perfect, she would move out. But I always wonder if she did drugs or something because she couldn't keep a roof over her head. Her husband was too disabled to work and he got Social Security and she did not.
And all her friends lived in apartments so she had no place to stay. She even had two kids that were taken by the state and adopted out. She claims it was because they were homeless and claims the judge told her she is not allowed to have anymore kids unless she makes $100,000 a year. Basically that judge was telling her she is not allowed to have more children by giving her a ridiculous standard because many people do not make that much and they still have kids. Plus we have assistance to help parents like healthcare for kids, food stamps, daycare assistance, WIC.
If a judge tells someone they're not to have any more kids unless they make double the average salary then the chances are their household was completely dysfunctional and riddled with substance abuse. If a judge deemed the only way to restore order was to for her to devote her entire life to wage slaving then that tells me she was probably on drugs personally. If she needed that much money to keep her kids then she was spending a lot of it on something.
I noticed people rarely just lose their house for no reason. Bad luck always happens and those with bad luck pick themselves up quickly or at least have some good relations with enough people to not be stuck on the streets. The people who do lose their homes and stay homeless have probably trashed them, abused people around them, become addicted to drink or drugs and can't hold down any kind of job. These are the people that can't be housed and many of them are sadly a lost cause.
She seemed so normal at work which is kind of weird but one day she just disappeared and she didn't tell any of us she was quitting. One day she was there and then she was out sick the next day and then the following week I heard she was no longer with us. I don't know if she was fired or she quit or what happened. The boss wouldn't tell us. He only said she is no longer with our group and said they didn't know what happened.
_________________
Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed.
Daughter: NT, no diagnoses.
funeralxempire
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Age: 39
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29 Nov 2020, 1:25 pm
MaxE wrote:
Speaking of former Warsaw pact in general. One time I was bored and decided to Google Street view through Győr, Hungary (a city through which I had ridden in a tourist coach back in 1971) and what surprised me the most was that all (or almost all) the cars I saw parked along the street were "economy" cars, whereas on any street in Western Europe you see tons of Mercedes and BMWs (no idea at the moment how this compares to Poland). So it seems there is still some disparity between those parts of Europe.
Keep in mind, BMW and MB don't have quite the same prestige in their home markets as they do in the US (think Oldsmobile, not Cadillac). A diesel C class or a 316i is an economy car; the bottom of those companies lineups don't get exported to North America due to profit margins but in their home market they provide enough of a margin to make economic sense.
_________________
Watching liberals try to solve societal problems without a systemic critique/class consciousness is like watching someone in the dark try to flip on the light switch, but they keep turning on the garbage disposal instead.
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う
