Question for Christians on Intelligent Design

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Folks...

Lets keep the words "depraved", and "deprived", straight please!

Starving children are "deprived".

The Marquis De Sade was "depraved".

Last edited by naturalplastic on 16 Dec 2020, 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Thanks, corrected it in my post

No, don’t edit it. I want to make sure to keep the intended meaning. Let’s do a simple retraction here:

The human mind is depraved due to the effects of sin. We are often blinded to the nature of the relationship between creator and creation and mistake the world as ours to do with as we please. We don’t recognize it as God’s, hence the confusion. The direction the world takes, imperfections and all, towards becoming perfected by God through the process of time is a perfectly moral direction and the only one possible to accomplish God’s goal for creation.

It is human depravity that sees flawed human morality as superior to God’s.

As a Christian (Lutheran), I feel that one can believe in both God and science.

I think a lot of the Bible is metaphor, not to be taken literally (though it would be cool if we could live to be 900+ ).

I don't think the "days" mentioned in Genesis refer to literal 24-hour periods, but rather, millions of years. There is also no step-by-step process mentioned in creation. Therefore, it could be said that the Bible supports evolution.

I’m more of a Bible literalist. But the Bible does not spell out the days of creation as literal consecutive 24 hour periods. I have no doubt that God is powerful enough to create the world in that time frame with the fossil record being a remnant of a previous cycle of creation and destruction that happened beyond the scope of the Biblical record. Or even not...it could be entirely an effect of supernatural activity surrounding the Flood. The point is we don’t know, we can’t know, and how/when God created/destroyed/created the world is not even what Genesis is trying to tell us.

The days COULD for all we know been separated by millions of years. I’m ok with that. The exceptionally long lives, too, MIGHT have referred to ruling dynasties. Hebrew tradition held that children were extensions of their parents and kept them alive in a physical sense even after their actual death. Either the bloodline ran out given primogeniture, the dynasty lost its effectiveness, or there was a reason why a certain descendant gets mention...perhaps the founding of a city, a military commander, a king, etc. But...then again, maybe they DID actually live for hundreds of years.

(I'm not a theist, this is just my perspective if I *were* a theist)

God didn't create genetic disorders as a kind of punishment. The bio-chemical processes that allows life to exist and perpetuate itself are not perfect. They are prone to errors from within and interference from without. Many factors can cause genes to mutate in ways that are harmful to an organism, much in the same way that they can mutate in ways that are beneficial to an organism. (Assuming your creationism accommodates evolution as a creation of God).
The laws of the universe are not meant to bend to prevent human misfortune. Asking genes to not combine or mutate in ways that harm people is like asking food not to go bad or asking gravity to stop working when you fall off a building.
The laws of the universe are mechanisms that keep the universe running consistently. Questioning why they are sometimes unfairly harmful to us specifically or life in general sounds like human self-importance.
God didn't create these scientific processes so they *would* harm us so much as god created these processes such that they *could* harm us. Being subject to these laws is just what it is to be mortal.

What is the standard for determining which part is literal and which part is metaphor?
And who created that standard?
And what was their agenda when they created it?

@roronoa: Some good points there, and they help put things that don't go right, into perspective.

Good points. Where I part ways with theodicy is the assumption that the universe as we know it really is the best of all possible worlds. It is not. That world was abandoned after Eden. This is the ONLY possible world that allows for destructive forces in balance with creative forces. Genes mutate, people get tumors. And as much as we try to prolong life, we are really choosing a prolonged life in a universe that has us eternally dealing with tumors, viruses, other microbes, and auto accidents. Death is a mercy that ends physical suffering. God intended us for a perfect world. Condemning us to eternity in an imperfect world full of disease, well...that would just be another kind of hell.

Your comment on human self-importance is dead on. It’s not that humans are worthless or even worth less. It’s the depraved human notion (NOT ATTACKING ANYONE) that the Creator is subject to the whims and desires of all of humanity. You mentioned you are not a theist. I believe humans have to be selfish to the extent that it is rational to be selfish. There’s no shame in asking God “why” out of suffering. The issue is presuming to upstage omniscience by insisting you have a better way. It does not follow, at least beyond Eden, that there even IS a better way. The question “if God is so good...” is about a reasonable a question as asking “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?” If you actually wanted an answer to the question, you’d never have to ask in the first place. You would already know. [Answer: there is no relevant answer. If you aren’t a Christian, you’re not actually interested in any answer. If you are a Christian, it doesn’t matter anyway because God already made a path to salvation.]

I think your response, even if you aren’t a theist, was thoughtful. Thank you.

Since the depravity subject has been raised & some readers might not be familiar with the theological concept of it here is a reference, https://www.gotquestions.org/total-depravity.html

Some commentary related to last paragraph above, https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/al ... -under-sin

EXCELLENT questions, all of them. The Bible DOES make use of idiomatic language, so when a passage happens to be metaphor it’s usually fairly obvious. It’s a self-interpreting document. I get really nervous when I hear a believer say it’s all or mostly metaphor. If the scriptural basis for our faith has no or little literal basis, what objective basis do we even have for faith? I’m not sure I’d be a Christian if that were the case.

Just my opinion here, but if God is strictly limited to natural existence and cannot exhibit supernatural power, he’s not a god I’d be all that concerned with pleasing. Certainly not worth dying for. Christ crucified on a metaphor doesn’t carry quite the same strength as He literally died and was resurrected to save us from the eternal consequences of sin.

If we're indeed made "in his image" why does he seem to think so vastly differently from us? I've been trying for years to make sense of a lot of things as I did grow up in a fundamentalist church and also attended a charismatic one for some years, but eventually found there were numerous points I couldn't reconcile.

Especially in the Old Testament. For instance, contradictory statements "do not kill" against injunctions to "mercifully" kill all the men, women, kids, animals etc in some places. And that's just a start.

Well, that goes against my experience.
To my experience, human nature is inherently limited and faulty but in most cases not inherently evil.
I'm a post-Copernican philosopher, I value observations plus logic over authority of the Holy Scripture and ancient philosophers.

God didn't have to make sin inheritable. Every theodicy assumes that God has to work within the rules, even though God is supposed to have created the rules.

Well by human standards a soldier is allowed to kill many people who are the enemy, but he's not allowed to kill anyone else. So that's not really vastly different from us.

YeaH iT's True, From the

Beginning oF all Bibles;

More Precisely Words,

All Human Tools; God, Oh

No CuLTuRaL Clothes;

Humans Are Happier

More Satisfied

Naked Wearing

No 'Clothes', Still Now

In Nature's Abundance;

All Balancing Free in Flow

oF A Nice 'Garden of Eden';

Precisely, What i Do NoW in 'Heaven

Dancing

Singing

Free

Within

With

'Eve'

Aka

Katrina

Or 'Nova'

Depending

On Which 'Planet

of the Apes' Story

We Are Actually Doing

For Real in Autotelic Flow

Now (Some Folks Do Hairless;

i Do Hairy Born That Way Still)

God Yes, Both Story And Real,

HeHe; And i Verily Prove it Now True; Yes

It's True; Some of Us Are More Intelligent

Designers

Wearing

Wings

Still Now;

And Some Still

LiVE iN Ignorance

of Dark, The Real

'Sinning' of Life,

Only Still

LooKinG

For the Original

Greek Definition of

"Apocalypse" That Means

Lifting the Veils oF iGnorance;

Sadly, Still Covered By All 'Minion

Trump Ignorance' Don't Believe

(Just A Suggestion of

Course As Will Rules)

Everything

'Trump

And the

Old Testament

D E M A G O G U E

God' Says Do Shed

All the CuLTuRaL

Clothes And

Return

to Nature

In Balance

Mastering the Tool;

Yes, the Neo-Cortex or

Stay Lost As Prisoner Away From

Now of Time, Distance, Space

And Matter, Never Now Seeing

Feeling The Eternal Now For Real....

Yes

God

Yes

Heaven

As Face Palms

Thick For Even

Science is SmART

Enough Now to

Lift the

Same

Old

Testament

Veils oF iGNoRanCE...

Get Naked And PLaY iN FLoWinG Autotelic Balance With Nature AKA

God Stuff; Star Stuff; Yes, The Cosmos That Comprises All...US

With A 'Little'

Chaos

MaGiC

And Synchronicity

Sprinkled in Far Far

Away From Any Pre-Planning Design;

Yes, All Our Creativity We Breathe Now

or

Do Not...

'Or i Don't Know',

BE A STick In the

Mud iN A Book

ReFuSinG

to Move

Dance

Or Sing

A New Way to

See With God EYes

Now for Yes 'The Bible'

Is Surely The Authors

Who are still

Worshipped

Now;

Story

Rules Still Now;

Be Ruled By Other

Stories or Write, Dance,

And Sing; Art Our Free...PLay

NoW; Yes, If 'You' Need A Reason(s)

For It, CuRReNTLY NoW You May Not Be

SMiLinG iN Effortless Tight Rope Dance

Of Increasing Human Potential Intelligences All

As LiGHT BeaReRS BRiNGeRS STaR STuFF US Naturally Do too...

AKA

'Lucifer(s)'

Yes, Morning

Stars of Loving Life

BRiGHT SHiNiNG

LiGHT LiViNG Trees

CoLoRinG NeW BreaKinG Dawn Dance;

Yes, And Song of LoVinG LiFE NoW;

NoW JusT FLoWinG Doing God NoW

In Terms of Original Coke Jesus; Not Adulterated
By Centuries More of Scribe Mistakes And Intentional
So-called Holy Paul-Like Related Holy Spirit Changes; YeS, Uncovered
In Egypt As A Gnostic Gospel of Thomas Relates Life Before And After

The 'Apple'

Freer

For Either

We Intelligently

Live Our Life Balancing

Yin And Yang, Art and Reason

Or We Fall or We Fall As All Apples Eventually Do;

Yet, You

'See' that

iS Only Within

The Bounds of

Infinity; What

Breathes

Within

Beyond

All Human

Empirical

Measure;

IMaGiNaTioN,

Creativity, God Still Breathes

Free Within; No Matter How Humans Dress Up Free...

And Lock It in a Chasity Belt of Prison Above As Below...

-Pan

Just All

THeRE iS

ThaT Is To IT....

And Yes God Is 'It'

Or Beyond Infinity

Measure of What

Ever Metaphor

iMaGiNaTioN

Creativity

'God'

Us Creates Next...

i Choose Lifting Higher;

Neither Stagnating or Falling...

PriSoNers oF old Rotting Books...

Yet, It's True, Not Everyone Scores

100 Percent in Openness and Extroversion

On the Big Five Personality Test; Closed

Minds, Closed Books; Yes, Tradition Binds Both....

And Is

Necessary

For Big City

Life To Survive;

Therefore, Thereby,

Me and Eve Still in a Garden

Of Eden; Hidden FoResT in Tradition Still Naked Free...

Hehe as again in 'this Version' of 'The Planet

of the Apes', It's More Like

The Original

One,

'Eve'

is the

Silent Hero;

Those Dirty Dammed

Apes Lied About Her Then too...

Yet not in the Movie Version, 'The Book'....

Let's Get Real, 'Adam', Charlton Heston, On the

Beach With 'Eve', Nova, The Most Beautiful

Kind, Loving, Humble Empathic Woman in the

World; God Yes, Close Enough

to Naked for 'Government

Work' and 'Adam'

Is Pissed

off Because

'They Blew Up

All the CuLTuRaL

Tools And Clothes

Having No Clue

What He's

Gained

Now

in Reality

Naked And Free

Separated From All Those

CuLTuRaL Clothes; Yet, 'Eve'

Needs No Words At All to Understand She's 'God'....

Nor A Bird, Nor A ChipMunk, Nor Below A Sub Particle of An

Atom

All one

Spiraling

Flow Dance

And Song

Music

of

Water Waves

Ocean Whole Beach...

Having It All My Friend

Is As Far Away From Lost;

Not Seeing, Feeling, Sensing

Just The Fact That We aRE ALL Breath of God

Nature Free

or Trapped

iN CuLTuRaL

Clothes so

Who

Is the

Naked

'Christian'

Now, Charlton

or 'Eve', For You

See, Indeed We aRe

All Super Nova Explosions

Resurrecting From Crucible

Fire of Star Flower Death

Explosions; Gaseous

Star Dust Seeds We aRe;

Star FLoWeRS We Seed too;

Star Dust Iron FLoWinG iN Our Blood;

at Core of Our Only Heavenly HoME EarTH;

All the Rocks, too Cold and Hot In Space;

Yet, Folks

Still

Complain

About this

Heaven On

EartH Now;

So Salty,

About

All the

Flavors

Available Now

And Holy

CR8P 'They'

Spend Money

And Wanna Walk

On Lifeless Rocks in Space...

'Oh Charlton', Please let it be Written

Differently And Done Again More Naturally Please...

In The End of 'This Movie', Charlton Most Definitely

Falls to His Knees And Orates All Of His Human Failures...

Rod Serling, Narrator, of 'The Twilight Zone'; Writer

Of This Last Scene; Such A Real Modern

Prophet iNDeeD...

Other Than That
THere is 'This'
For Christians

Original

Before

And After

The Apple Again Fandom...

From the Gospel of Thomas; Not as
Adulterated From Centuries of Constant Revision...

37) His disciples said to him, "When will you be visible to us,
and when shall we behold you?"
He said, "When you strip naked without being ashamed, and
take your garments and put them under your feet like little
children and tread upon them, then you will see the child of the
Living, and you will not be afraid."

'Eve' Passed 'the Test' At The End of the Movie; She Never EveN

Had to Take It; 'Charlton, Miserably FailS AGAiN, On His Naked Knees;

Forgive Him, Raised Differently, in Books, He Knows Not What He Sees...

Or Even Breathes Naked Free...

Cold Dead

Hands

Living

Dead Still Then...

Statue of Liberty

Broken Like an Old Rusty Gun...

All i could Think of in the Movie, Even

At 8 Years Old then; is, i wanna Live With (Nova) Eve...

Close to A Free Beach Like That; YeS, A GArden

Of Eden Secluded In A Rural Area

Of A Forest BackYard Free

Surrounded By Trees

Even in Trump

Town USA

Works

Don't

Even Need

A Gun

As All

The Neighbors

Naturally Protect

me Armed to

The Hilt

In Automatic

Weaponized

Killing Machines

Hmm..

Oh
Wish...

Oh Wish Upon...

A Star You Do Come True...

Thanks All Left And Right For Providing This Avenue As Prepared Now;

This Mix of Dark and Light; This TWiLiGHT Heaven Forever Eternally Now..

It is
What
It is

If is to

Be We Do JusT Do IT NoW...

Yes, It is Up to me and You, Them, Us, And They We

Strikes And Gutter-balls; 10 Pins Fall... And Rise Again...

All the Egyptian And Greek Gods; Just Happy Again; All God,

WHere i Live

at least...

In This

Game

Play Am

i Do Create;

Just me, i am, ALL,

For ALL Those Who 'See' ALL iN ALL...