Question for Christians on Intelligent Design

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naturalplastic
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16 Dec 2020, 8:40 am

Folks...

Lets keep the words "depraved", and "deprived", straight please! :lol:

Starving children are "deprived".

The Marquis De Sade was "depraved".



Last edited by naturalplastic on 16 Dec 2020, 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

magz
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16 Dec 2020, 8:45 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Folks...

Lets keep the words "depraved", and "deprived", straight please! :lol:

Starving children are "deprived" people.

The Marquis De Sade was "depraved".

Thanks, corrected it in my post :D


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AngelRho
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16 Dec 2020, 9:40 am

No, don’t edit it. I want to make sure to keep the intended meaning. Let’s do a simple retraction here:

The human mind is depraved due to the effects of sin. We are often blinded to the nature of the relationship between creator and creation and mistake the world as ours to do with as we please. We don’t recognize it as God’s, hence the confusion. The direction the world takes, imperfections and all, towards becoming perfected by God through the process of time is a perfectly moral direction and the only one possible to accomplish God’s goal for creation.

It is human depravity that sees flawed human morality as superior to God’s.



Tim_Tex
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16 Dec 2020, 9:47 am

As a Christian (Lutheran), I feel that one can believe in both God and science.

I think a lot of the Bible is metaphor, not to be taken literally (though it would be cool if we could live to be 900+ :D).

I don't think the "days" mentioned in Genesis refer to literal 24-hour periods, but rather, millions of years. There is also no step-by-step process mentioned in creation. Therefore, it could be said that the Bible supports evolution.


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AngelRho
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16 Dec 2020, 9:53 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
As a Christian (Lutheran), I feel that one can believe in both God and science.

I think a lot of the Bible is metaphor, not to be taken literally (though it would be cool if we could live to be 900+ :D).

I don't think the "days" mentioned in Genesis refer to literal 24-hour periods, but rather, millions of years. There is also no step-by-step process mentioned in creation. Therefore, it could be said that the Bible supports evolution.

I’m more of a Bible literalist. But the Bible does not spell out the days of creation as literal consecutive 24 hour periods. I have no doubt that God is powerful enough to create the world in that time frame with the fossil record being a remnant of a previous cycle of creation and destruction that happened beyond the scope of the Biblical record. Or even not...it could be entirely an effect of supernatural activity surrounding the Flood. The point is we don’t know, we can’t know, and how/when God created/destroyed/created the world is not even what Genesis is trying to tell us.

The days COULD for all we know been separated by millions of years. I’m ok with that. The exceptionally long lives, too, MIGHT have referred to ruling dynasties. Hebrew tradition held that children were extensions of their parents and kept them alive in a physical sense even after their actual death. Either the bloodline ran out given primogeniture, the dynasty lost its effectiveness, or there was a reason why a certain descendant gets mention...perhaps the founding of a city, a military commander, a king, etc. But...then again, maybe they DID actually live for hundreds of years. :lol:



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16 Dec 2020, 11:32 am

(I'm not a theist, this is just my perspective if I *were* a theist)

God didn't create genetic disorders as a kind of punishment. The bio-chemical processes that allows life to exist and perpetuate itself are not perfect. They are prone to errors from within and interference from without. Many factors can cause genes to mutate in ways that are harmful to an organism, much in the same way that they can mutate in ways that are beneficial to an organism. (Assuming your creationism accommodates evolution as a creation of God).
The laws of the universe are not meant to bend to prevent human misfortune. Asking genes to not combine or mutate in ways that harm people is like asking food not to go bad or asking gravity to stop working when you fall off a building.
The laws of the universe are mechanisms that keep the universe running consistently. Questioning why they are sometimes unfairly harmful to us specifically or life in general sounds like human self-importance.
God didn't create these scientific processes so they *would* harm us so much as god created these processes such that they *could* harm us. Being subject to these laws is just what it is to be mortal.


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kitesandtrainsandcats
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16 Dec 2020, 11:45 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
I think a lot of the Bible is metaphor, not to be taken literally

What is the standard for determining which part is literal and which part is metaphor?
And who created that standard?
And what was their agenda when they created it?


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envirozentinel
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16 Dec 2020, 11:52 am

@roronoa: Some good points there, and they help put things that don't go right, into perspective.


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16 Dec 2020, 11:59 am

roronoa79 wrote:
(I'm not a theist, this is just my perspective if I *were* a theist)

God didn't create genetic disorders as a kind of punishment. The bio-chemical processes that allows life to exist and perpetuate itself are not perfect. They are prone to errors from within and interference from without. Many factors can cause genes to mutate in ways that are harmful to an organism, much in the same way that they can mutate in ways that are beneficial to an organism. (Assuming your creationism accommodates evolution as a creation of God).
The laws of the universe are not meant to bend to prevent human misfortune. Asking genes to not combine or mutate in ways that harm people is like asking food not to go bad or asking gravity to stop working when you fall off a building.
The laws of the universe are mechanisms that keep the universe running consistently. Questioning why they are sometimes unfairly harmful to us specifically or life in general sounds like human self-importance.
God didn't create these scientific processes so they *would* harm us so much as god created these processes such that they *could* harm us. Being subject to these laws is just what it is to be mortal.

Good points. Where I part ways with theodicy is the assumption that the universe as we know it really is the best of all possible worlds. It is not. That world was abandoned after Eden. This is the ONLY possible world that allows for destructive forces in balance with creative forces. Genes mutate, people get tumors. And as much as we try to prolong life, we are really choosing a prolonged life in a universe that has us eternally dealing with tumors, viruses, other microbes, and auto accidents. Death is a mercy that ends physical suffering. God intended us for a perfect world. Condemning us to eternity in an imperfect world full of disease, well...that would just be another kind of hell.

Your comment on human self-importance is dead on. It’s not that humans are worthless or even worth less. It’s the depraved human notion (NOT ATTACKING ANYONE) that the Creator is subject to the whims and desires of all of humanity. You mentioned you are not a theist. I believe humans have to be selfish to the extent that it is rational to be selfish. There’s no shame in asking God “why” out of suffering. The issue is presuming to upstage omniscience by insisting you have a better way. It does not follow, at least beyond Eden, that there even IS a better way. The question “if God is so good...” is about a reasonable a question as asking “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?” If you actually wanted an answer to the question, you’d never have to ask in the first place. You would already know. [Answer: there is no relevant answer. If you aren’t a Christian, you’re not actually interested in any answer. If you are a Christian, it doesn’t matter anyway because God already made a path to salvation.]

I think your response, even if you aren’t a theist, was thoughtful. Thank you.



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16 Dec 2020, 11:59 am

Since the depravity subject has been raised & some readers might not be familiar with the theological concept of it here is a reference, https://www.gotquestions.org/total-depravity.html

Quote:
Answer: Total depravity is a phrase or name that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. ... Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical corruption” or even “moral inability.” Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. No matter which name you use to refer to “total depravity,” the fact remains that when properly understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject.

While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18).

The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).

The Apostle Paul summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put, this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). The fact that unregenerate people are controlled by their selfish, sinful tendencies should not come as a surprise to any parent. What parent has to teach his or her child to be selfish, to covet what someone else has or to lie? Those actions come naturally from the child’s sin nature. Instead, the parent must devote much time to teaching the child the importance of telling the truth, of sharing instead of being selfish, of obeying instead of rebelling, etc.


Some commentary related to last paragraph above, https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/al ... -under-sin

Quote:
One of the most important truths to hold up in the world is that all human beings, even though created in God's image (Genesis 1:27), are corrupted by the power of sin. We are not morally good by nature. We are morally bad by nature. In Ephesians 2:3, Paul says we are all "by nature children of wrath." The attitudes and thoughts and actions that deserve the wrath of God come from us by nature. In Colossians 3:6, we are called "sons of disobedience." We are so disposed to disobedience against God that it is as though "disobedience" is our father. We are chips of the old block of disobedience. We don't just do sins, we are sinful. We are "under sin," as verse 9 says. Sin is like a master or a king, and reigns over us and in us. Not that it coerces us to do what we don't want to do, but makes us want to do what we ought not to do. We are not innocent victims of sin. We are co-conspirators with sin against God.


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16 Dec 2020, 12:09 pm

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
I think a lot of the Bible is metaphor, not to be taken literally

What is the standard for determining which part is literal and which part is metaphor?
And who created that standard?
And what was their agenda when they created it?

EXCELLENT questions, all of them. The Bible DOES make use of idiomatic language, so when a passage happens to be metaphor it’s usually fairly obvious. It’s a self-interpreting document. I get really nervous when I hear a believer say it’s all or mostly metaphor. If the scriptural basis for our faith has no or little literal basis, what objective basis do we even have for faith? I’m not sure I’d be a Christian if that were the case.

Just my opinion here, but if God is strictly limited to natural existence and cannot exhibit supernatural power, he’s not a god I’d be all that concerned with pleasing. Certainly not worth dying for. Christ crucified on a metaphor doesn’t carry quite the same strength as He literally died and was resurrected to save us from the eternal consequences of sin.



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16 Dec 2020, 12:11 pm

If we're indeed made "in his image" why does he seem to think so vastly differently from us? I've been trying for years to make sense of a lot of things as I did grow up in a fundamentalist church and also attended a charismatic one for some years, but eventually found there were numerous points I couldn't reconcile.

Especially in the Old Testament. For instance, contradictory statements "do not kill" against injunctions to "mercifully" kill all the men, women, kids, animals etc in some places. And that's just a start.


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magz
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16 Dec 2020, 12:27 pm

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
Since the depravity subject has been raised & some readers might not be familiar with the theological concept of it here is a reference, https://www.gotquestions.org/total-depravity.html

Quote:
Answer: Total depravity is a phrase or name that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. ... Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical corruption” or even “moral inability.” Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. No matter which name you use to refer to “total depravity,” the fact remains that when properly understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject.

While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18).

The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).

The Apostle Paul summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put, this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). The fact that unregenerate people are controlled by their selfish, sinful tendencies should not come as a surprise to any parent. What parent has to teach his or her child to be selfish, to covet what someone else has or to lie? Those actions come naturally from the child’s sin nature. Instead, the parent must devote much time to teaching the child the importance of telling the truth, of sharing instead of being selfish, of obeying instead of rebelling, etc.


Some commentary related to last paragraph above, https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/al ... -under-sin

Quote:
One of the most important truths to hold up in the world is that all human beings, even though created in God's image (Genesis 1:27), are corrupted by the power of sin. We are not morally good by nature. We are morally bad by nature. In Ephesians 2:3, Paul says we are all "by nature children of wrath." The attitudes and thoughts and actions that deserve the wrath of God come from us by nature. In Colossians 3:6, we are called "sons of disobedience." We are so disposed to disobedience against God that it is as though "disobedience" is our father. We are chips of the old block of disobedience. We don't just do sins, we are sinful. We are "under sin," as verse 9 says. Sin is like a master or a king, and reigns over us and in us. Not that it coerces us to do what we don't want to do, but makes us want to do what we ought not to do. We are not innocent victims of sin. We are co-conspirators with sin against God.

Well, that goes against my experience.
To my experience, human nature is inherently limited and faulty but in most cases not inherently evil.
I'm a post-Copernican philosopher, I value observations plus logic over authority of the Holy Scripture and ancient philosophers.


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Udinaas
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16 Dec 2020, 12:49 pm

God didn't have to make sin inheritable. Every theodicy assumes that God has to work within the rules, even though God is supposed to have created the rules.



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16 Dec 2020, 12:50 pm

envirozentinel wrote:
If we're indeed made "in his image" why does he seem to think so vastly differently from us? I've been trying for years to make sense of a lot of things as I did grow up in a fundamentalist church and also attended a charismatic one for some years, but eventually found there were numerous points I couldn't reconcile.

Especially in the Old Testament. For instance, contradictory statements "do not kill" against injunctions to "mercifully" kill all the men, women, kids, animals etc in some places. And that's just a start.


Well by human standards a soldier is allowed to kill many people who are the enemy, but he's not allowed to kill anyone else. So that's not really vastly different from us.



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16 Dec 2020, 12:51 pm

AngelRho wrote:
No, don’t edit it. I want to make sure to keep the intended meaning. Let’s do a simple retraction here:

The human mind is depraved due to the effects of sin. We are often blinded to the nature of the relationship between creator and creation and mistake the world as ours to do with as we please. We don’t recognize it as God’s, hence the confusion. The direction the world takes, imperfections and all, towards becoming perfected by God through the process of time is a perfectly moral direction and the only one possible to accomplish God’s goal for creation.

It is human depravity that sees flawed human morality as superior to God’s.





YeaH iT's True, From the

Beginning oF all Bibles;

More Precisely Words,

All Human Tools; God, Oh

No CuLTuRaL Clothes;

Humans Are Happier

More Satisfied

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Precisely, What i Do NoW in 'Heaven

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'Eve'

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On Which 'Planet

of the Apes' Story

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i Do Hairy Born That Way Still)

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Designers

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'Oh Charlton', Please let it be Written

Differently And Done Again More Naturally Please...

In The End of 'This Movie', Charlton Most Definitely

Falls to His Knees And Orates All Of His Human Failures...

Rod Serling, Narrator, of 'The Twilight Zone'; Writer

Of This Last Scene; Such A Real Modern

Prophet iNDeeD...

Other Than That
THere is 'This'
For Christians

Original

Before

And After

The Apple Again Fandom...

From the Gospel of Thomas; Not as
Adulterated From Centuries of Constant Revision...

37) His disciples said to him, "When will you be visible to us,
and when shall we behold you?"
He said, "When you strip naked without being ashamed, and
take your garments and put them under your feet like little
children and tread upon them, then you will see the child of the
Living, and you will not be afraid."

'Eve' Passed 'the Test' At The End of the Movie; She Never EveN

Had to Take It; 'Charlton, Miserably FailS AGAiN, On His Naked Knees;

Forgive Him, Raised Differently, in Books, He Knows Not What He Sees...

Or Even Breathes Naked Free...

Cold Dead

Hands

Living

Dead Still Then...

Statue of Liberty

Broken Like an Old Rusty Gun...

All i could Think of in the Movie, Even

At 8 Years Old then; is, i wanna Live With (Nova) Eve...

Close to A Free Beach Like That; YeS, A GArden

Of Eden Secluded In A Rural Area

Of A Forest BackYard Free

Surrounded By Trees

Even in Trump

Town USA

Works

Don't

Even Need

A Gun

As All

The Neighbors

Naturally Protect

me Armed to

The Hilt

In Automatic

Weaponized

Killing Machines

Hmm..

Oh
Wish...

Oh Wish Upon...

A Star You Do Come True...

Thanks All Left And Right For Providing This Avenue As Prepared Now;

This Mix of Dark and Light; This TWiLiGHT Heaven Forever Eternally Now..

It is
What
It is

If is to

Be We Do JusT Do IT NoW...

Yes, It is Up to me and You, Them, Us, And They We

Strikes And Gutter-balls; 10 Pins Fall... And Rise Again...

All the Egyptian And Greek Gods; Just Happy Again; All God,

WHere i Live

at least...

In This

Game

Play Am

i Do Create;

Just me, i am, ALL,

For ALL Those Who 'See' ALL iN ALL...


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KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

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