"Catholics and Christians"

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I understand why Protestants say this.

But it's a dog whistle. It means "Mary Worshippers" etc.

I don't understand why atheists say it.

Do they honestly think that Catholics aren't Christian? That Christianity wasn't invented with Christ but with the reformation?

If people don't want to offend Catholics, they should stop saying it and realise that Catholics are Christian.

As long as people worship someone or something other than G^D through the Christ, they are not Christian.

For example, believing that the utterances of an old man in a silk bathrobe and a pointy hat can negate the teachings of the Christ is blasphemy.  For another, bowing down and praying to icons of dead "saints" is idolatry.

I could go on...

I haven't run into atheists who somehow make a distinction between Catholics and (real?) Christians.
I'd have to guess it comes from growing up in majority-protestant communities who treat Catholics as anti-christian apostates. Many atheists I've met ironically take their theological cues from evangelical christians who see themselves and other protestants as "real" christians. I've met protestants who treat the Catholic Church like it's Babylon the Great from Revelations.
A lot of this anti-catholic bias seems to be justified by treating catholicism as a church more than a religion--if that makes any sense. As if its hierarchy and structure somehow make it unchristian regardless how much they believe in Jesus. A term I've heard used is caesaropapism, which suggests that the power of the pope is a continuation or extension of the roman emperors who oppressed "real" christians originally. Like its roman anti-christianity disguising itself in christian clothing.

I still am baffled when I see conservative christian conspiracy theorists say things like that Biden is supposedly planning to kill American christians--as if his Catholicism is pseudo-Christianity or he's a closet atheist or something.

Some Catholics are Christians. Some Protestants are also Christians. Others both in the Protestant and the Catholic camps and even elsewhere follow religion and do not know God.
Many call themselves Christian but have not realized in their hearts what it is all about. (Not criticising here as I want to reveal what it is about).

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


WHAT I am trying to describe....

It is like the difference between someone who can learn all about cars and know everything about cars and has spent their lives studying cars and going to classes to learn about cars, but has never driven a car in their lives so they can't be called a "Driver".

What I will say to all who faithfully go to church and study and try to outwardly live the Christian life be they Protestant, Catholic or call themselves by any other name...
I want to tell you that there is more and all you have learned is nothing compared to the "Experience" of knowing your God.

One can have or see miracles and not know God.

Christianity is not an outward life. It is an inward life. God living inside you! It has nothing to do with church or denomination. It is to do with YOU and GOD, and this relationship starts with Jesus.

Why? Because He (Jesus) made a way... He died to take your place for your sins.

It is sin that seperates you from God. By accepting that Jesus took your sin and paid the price of the punishment of your sin, your sins have then been paid for and you can then have that relationship with God just like it was wirh Adam and Eve when they walked with God.

That is what Christianity is about. A relationship, not a religion and it is an aspect I have not seen in other religions.

I am often outstanded by the dedication that people give to their preferred religion and I have to say that I do not have this dedication!
But religion is different from a relationship.

So be it Catholic or Protestant or any other religious group...., Without a relationship with God it is a pointless exercise once one has had that one to one expreience with God.


I hope I have explained this in a way that you can understand. I do not intend to offend anyone by what I say, but rather, I want to say "Look. There is more! So much more!"


And for the reference, I have met many Christians who are both from Catholic denominations and also from Protestant denominations and occasionally I have met a Christian from another religion who knows Jesus Christ and has a personal relationship.
To me the "Right way" is not about being a Protestant or a Catholic. Those are things that to be honest are missing the point. To me it is about a one to one relationship with God.

Last edited by Mountain Goat on 18 Dec 2020, 10:46 am, edited 5 times in total.

If Catholics were actually worshipping the Pope or Saints you'd have a point.

Doesn't explain why atheists would do it.

Christianity comes in many flavors, just like the flavors of ice cream.

In some ways I think Matthew 13:24-30 explains this question:

The Parable of the Weeds Among the Wheat. He proposed another parable to them. “The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field. While everyone was asleep his enemy came and sowed weeds all through the wheat, and then went off. When the crop grew and bore fruit, the weeds appeared as well. The slaves of the householder came to him and said, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from?’ He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ His slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ He replied, ‘No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. Let them grow together until harvest; then at harvest time I will say to the harvesters, “First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles for burning; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

The field in not the world but rather Christianity. Within each Christian denomination there are weeds and good seeds.

I have seen people genuflect, kneel down, and pray to images of Mary and various other "saints".  Is that not worship?Is an explanation necessary?  Not being an atheist, I could not provide one anyway.  The point is that SOME atheists have and will declare that Catholics are not "real" Christians.

Ask for the reason they do that and you will realise they are asking for intercession.

They do not believe that Saints and Mary are God or false gods.

Why not just drop the dog whistles & say 'Mary worshippers' and 'papists' the way that more bold anti-Catholics do?

Worship is to bow down to, and consider the one being worshipped as being better then oneself (If this makes sense?)
Let me give an example. Many TV stars are gods to those who worship them. This is because they think the TV stars as somehow better then themselves.
Many people will worship their church leaders in this way. They will honor them above themselves. They make them into their gods.

Now this does not happen to all those who attend church. Itis only some who do this.

But you can see why they can be found to worshipping the pope rather then worshipping God. (That is not criticising whoever the pope is. It is more to clarify what worship is).

Some Catholics pray to Mary or statues of Mary. Doing this is making Mary to be an idol. Only some Catholics do this because most realize that this is idolotry and will not do it.
It has nothing to do with the part God had Mary play. She was faithful in this part. But Mary was not and is not God. Making her out to be a god is what God says not to do in the 10 commandments. "Though shalt have no other god but me".

Now it is easy for Protestants to say this when many will glorify their pastors to be gods and they do the very same thing!

And to clarify another point. A "Saint" is simply a Christian. He or she is no different to you or I. The miriacles are NOT done by the saint but done by God. The saint only does what God directs him or her to do.
There is NO difference between them and us. God can use anyone He chooses in this way if we submit to Him.

Because I am not "dog-whistling", nor am I being "anti-Catholic".  I am just posting what I have seen and know.

I do no recall having heard any atheists make such a distinction between Catholics and Christians, but I suppose they exist, too.

Anyway, Catholicism is the largest branch of Christianity and - alongside Orthodox Christianity - the oldest extant branch, as well (Gnosticism is as old too, perhaps, but I am unsure if Gnostics see themselves as Christians).

... so seeing Catholicism as an alternative to Christianity seems to be quite an ahistorical stance.

Of course, it is quite common for members of a religious denomination to see their version of the faith as the "one true faith", but the one true faith has thoroughly debunked this claim.

Last edited by GGPViper on 18 Dec 2020, 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Muslims don't recognize Jews as legitimate; Jews don't recognize Catholics as legitimate; Catholics don't recognize Protestants as legitimate; and Protestants don't recognize each other in the liquor store.

Religionists...

When I read part of what you wrote, I was going to say that what you wrote is basically a definition of Protestantism. You are basically saying "it doesn't matter if you call yourself Protestant or Catholic, as long as you do Protestant thing" which is basically a marketing technique. Because if you tell to Catholic "hey I want you to be a Protestant" of course they would say no. But if you tell them "hey I want you to focus on relationship rather than religion" then maybe they give it some thought, and then later down the road they will realize that they became Protestant but, by that point (hopefully) they will just thank you. And yes I acknowledge that both religions believe in Jesus. The part where its different is that Catholicism believes that there are many aspects to it (belief in Jesus, baptism, going to church, good works, sacraments, confession, etc) while Protestant beliefs that there is just one aspect: belief in Jesus. So when you are saying "it doesn't matter what you do as long as you have a genuine relationship with Jesus", that is what it means to be a Protestant.

However, like I said, that was my thought when I read just "part" of what you wrote. But when I read the other part, that you personally know both Protestants and Catholics who do what you described, and you also know both Protestants and Catholics who don't do that, this makes it for an interesting twist. I guess I can see how that is possible. You can have a Catholic who haven't really studied their church's teaching and only considers themselves a Catholic because they were raised in a Catholic family (and their family isn't that devoted either). But, while they don't really think about Catholicism that much, they happened to develop relationship with Christ on their own, and they didn't come to realize that what they discovered is really a Protestantism -- cause again they haven't really studied their faith much. In this case, the moment they do get to study, they would have to choose between either renouncing their belief in favor of Catholic way of thinking or sticking to their beliefs while officially becoming Protestant.

By the way I am Protestant myself. I just prefer the information to be communicated in an honest way, without any underhanded arguments.

Catholics are Christians in the same sense that Seventh-Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Latter-Day Saints ("Mormons") are all Christians -- they all teach the story of Jesus' birth, life, and death here on Earth, each with greater or lesser emphasis on the importance of Him being the Christ.

As far as who is the oldest, the answer to this question is tied to your own faith. Because, from Protestant point of view, Jesus and Apostles were Protestant but then, a century later, they apostasized into Catholicism. Then, of course, Protestantism came back during Reformation. But then Reformation would not really be a birth of Protestantism but rather its resurrection. So Protestantism would still be the oldest denomination, it just went to sleep for 15 centuries.

On the other hand, from Catholic point of view, Jesus and his Apostles were Catholic and they started the Catholic succession, from Peter. And Orthodox would instead say that Jesus and Apostles were Orthodox and they started the Orthodox succession. The split between Orthodox and Catholics was around 1000 AD. So from Catholic point of view Catholicism started in 33 AD while Orthodoxy started in 1000 AD, while from Orthodox point of view the Orthodoxy started in 33 AD while Catholicism started in 1000 AD.

Bottom line: each person believes that the denomination they, personally, subscribe to is the oldest. And that makes sense. Because the ultimate claim of truth is to say Jesus agreed with it. And you can't say it without saying its the oldest.

Jesus often cited Mosaic Law in His teachings and the words of the Prophets as being all about Him, so it could even be argued that only Judaism -- as described in the Torah and the books of the Prophets -- can legitimately lay claim to being the oldest form of "Christianity".

Shalom!

Last edited by Fnord on 18 Dec 2020, 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.