Page 2 of 5 [ 72 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,788

18 Dec 2020, 1:51 pm

Fnord wrote:
Catholics are Christians in the same sense that Seventh-Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Latter-Day Saints ("Mormons") are all Christians -- they all teach the story of Jesus' birth, life, and death here on Earth, each with greater or lesser emphasis on the importance of Him being the Christ.


And they all call themselves Christians.

Now, look at this. Mainstream Protestants say that other Mainstream Protestants are Christians while Jehovah Wittnesses are not. On the other hand, Jehovah Wittnesses say that Jehovah Wittnesses are Christian while Mainstream Protestants are not. So which of them is right?

I personally prefer to just call people by whatever name the majority would call them. Instead I would just say "not all Christians go to heaven". So instead of asking "are Catholics Christian" I would be asking "do Catholics go to heaven". That way I am talking about the substance rather than semantics.

By the way, the word "Muslim" comes from the word "obedient to God". So then Christian can argue that "people who call themselves Muslim" aren't really Muslim since they are not true followers of God: yes, they believe they follow God, but they don't do that in the right way, so they aren't *true* followers, hence not *true* Muslims. Instead, Christians should claim the label of a Muslim, since Christians (presumably) follow God in a true way, hence they are true Muslims. You don't see this ever happen, because we all know its just a language. So maybe the word Christian should be treated in the same way. Just like being a Muslim doesn't imply being a *true* follower of God, neither being a Christian should imply being a *true* follower of Christ. Both are just labels. As far as who is a true follower that is a separate conversation.

By the way, speaking of Muslims, they claim that all the Old Testament prophets, as well as Jesus, were all Muslims. Then Christians claim that Old Testament prophets were Christian, and Jews claim they were Jews. So, again, we see that each person believes their respective religion is the oldest one.



Deltaville
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Dec 2015
Gender: Male
Posts: 941
Location: SystemShock Universe

18 Dec 2020, 1:52 pm

Fnord wrote:
Muslims don't recognize Jews as legitimate; Jews don't recognize Catholics as legitimate; Catholics don't recognize Protestants as legitimate; and Protestants don't recognize each other in the liquor store.

:roll: Religionists...


Haha.

I guess you cannot help but feel some cloud of global insecurity when so many cabals are contending each other for being the one and only source of truth. You and I know that only one of them can be right.


_________________
Sebastian

"Don't forget to floss." - Darkwing Duck


KT67
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2019
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,887

18 Dec 2020, 1:53 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
KT67 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
As long as people worship someone or something other than G^D through the Christ, they are not Christian.

For example, believing that the utterances of an old man in a silk bathrobe and a pointy hat can negate the teachings of the Christ is blasphemy.  For another, bowing down and praying to icons of dead "saints" is idolatry.

I could go on...


If Catholics were actually worshipping the Pope or Saints you'd have a point.

Doesn't explain why atheists would do it.


Worship is to bow down to, and consider the one being worshipped as being better then oneself (If this makes sense?)
Let me give an example. Many TV stars are gods to those who worship them. This is because they think the TV stars as somehow better then themselves.
Many people will worship their church leaders in this way. They will honor them above themselves. They make them into their gods.

Now this does not happen to all those who attend church. Itis only some who do this.

But you can see why they can be found to worshipping the pope rather then worshipping God. (That is not criticising whoever the pope is. It is more to clarify what worship is).

Some Catholics pray to Mary or statues of Mary. Doing this is making Mary to be an idol. Only some Catholics do this because most realize that this is idolotry and will not do it.
It has nothing to do with the part God had Mary play. She was faithful in this part. But Mary was not and is not God. Making her out to be a god is what God says not to do in the 10 commandments. "Though shalt have no other god but me".

Now it is easy for Protestants to say this when many will glorify their pastors to be gods and they do the very same thing!

And to clarify another point. A "Saint" is simply a Christian. He or she is no different to you or I. The miriacles are NOT done by the saint but done by God. The saint only does what God directs him or her to do.
There is NO difference between them and us. God can use anyone He chooses in this way if we submit to Him.


Are you morally superior to a murderer?

If yes, you can see the fact that some can be morally superior to others.

Doesn't mean hold the morally superior up for worship. Does mean hold them up for emulation.

Or to put it less emotively: do you believe having role models in terms of morality is a bad thing if they're not God?



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 45,443
Location: Stendec

18 Dec 2020, 1:58 pm

... and the Republicans from Texas say they are the only true Republicans ... and cis-people say that trans-people are not really their expressed gender ... and native-born citizens claim that naturalized citizens are not real citizens ... and ...

I could go on.

I reckon the point I am pondering now is that every group that professes the goal of unification is actually formed to separate themselves from all the other "unification" groups -- especially sub-groups within Christianity.

Religion is not about bringing people together; it is about defining and erecting social barriers between "Them" and "Us".


_________________
TRE45ON!!
Anyone attempting to argue in defense of Donald Trump automatically loses the argument.


QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,788

18 Dec 2020, 1:59 pm

Fnord wrote:
Jesus often cited Mosaic Law in His teachings and the words of the Prophets as being all about Him, so it could even be argued that only Judaism -- as described in the Torah and the books of the Prophets -- can legitimately lay claim to being the oldest form of "Christianity".

Shalom!


Actually I was born Jewish and I came to believe in Jesus as an adult. I consider myself Messianic Jew so I still follow Jewish law and believe in Jesus -- I go to Messianic congregations. So I am very much familiar with this line of thinking.

And this is yet another example where people disagree on the labels depending on their personal beliefs. Messianics would claim that Jesus was following Biblical Judaism while Pharesees apostasized into Rabbinic Judaism (what Jesus called "traditions of men") so they rejected Him. On the other hand, traditional Jews would say that the Pharesees were following Biblical Judaism while Jesus was the one who apostasized. Hence they would disagree as to which side the Old Testament prophets would have taken: both claim they would have taken their own side.



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 45,443
Location: Stendec

18 Dec 2020, 2:00 pm

Deltaville wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Muslims don't recognize Jews as legitimate; Jews don't recognize Catholics as legitimate; Catholics don't recognize Protestants as legitimate; and Protestants don't recognize each other in the liquor store...
I guess you cannot help but feel some cloud of global insecurity when so many cabals are contending each other for being the one and only source of truth. You and I know that only one of them can be right.
I only know that they are all equally wrong.


_________________
TRE45ON!!
Anyone attempting to argue in defense of Donald Trump automatically loses the argument.


GGPViper
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,577

18 Dec 2020, 2:03 pm

Deltaville wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Muslims don't recognize Jews as legitimate; Jews don't recognize Catholics as legitimate; Catholics don't recognize Protestants as legitimate; and Protestants don't recognize each other in the liquor store.

:roll: Religionists...


Haha.

I guess you cannot help but feel some cloud of global insecurity when so many cabals are contending each other for being the one and only source of truth. You and I know that only one of them can be right.

Note that such black-and-white thinking about the "right" religion is largely an Abrahamic concept.

I recall a Buddhist Sutra (The Vimalakirti Sutra) claiming how some people might achieve enlightenment by hearing the dharma being preached by the Buddha... and others might achieve enlightenment by eating fragrant rice.


_________________
Omit needless words.


Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 45,443
Location: Stendec

18 Dec 2020, 2:04 pm

QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Jesus often cited Mosaic Law in His teachings and the words of the Prophets as being all about Him, so it could even be argued that only Judaism -- as described in the Torah and the books of the Prophets -- can legitimately lay claim to being the oldest form of "Christianity".  Shalom!
Actually I was born Jewish and I came to believe in Jesus as an adult. I consider myself Messianic Jew so I still follow Jewish law and believe in Jesus -- I go to Messianic congregations. So I am very much familiar with this line of thinking. And this is yet another example where people disagree on the labels depending on their personal beliefs. Messianics would claim that Jesus was following Biblical Judaism while Pharesees apostasized into Rabbinic Judaism (what Jesus called "traditions of men") so they rejected Him. On the other hand, traditional Jews would say that the Pharesees were following Biblical Judaism while Jesus was the one who apostasized. Hence they would disagree as to which side the Old Testament prophets would have taken: both claim they would have taken their own side.
Ahh ... but does Pharisaical Judaism still officially exist?  Do they still enact blood sacrifices on a daily, weekly, and yearly basis?  Do they still believe that violating even one of the Mitzvot makes a person "unclean" and unfit to worship G^D with the rest of the community?


_________________
TRE45ON!!
Anyone attempting to argue in defense of Donald Trump automatically loses the argument.


QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,788

18 Dec 2020, 2:07 pm

Fnord wrote:
Religion is not about bringing people together; it is about defining and erecting social barriers between "Them" and "Us".


In Matt 7:13 Jesus said only few are saved, so it makes sense to separate different denominations in order to put some landmarks as to where those "few" could be found. Of course, we all have our own way of interpreting those landmarks depending on our own beliefs. But it would still help when things are labeled. For example, if you believe that those few are Adventists, then you know to go to Adventist church instead of just asking around who beliefs what. Of course, once you are at your church you might still want to ask people what they believe since their beliefs might slightly alter, but at least you have a starting point as to what building to walk into before you start asking.



Deltaville
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Dec 2015
Gender: Male
Posts: 941
Location: SystemShock Universe

18 Dec 2020, 2:08 pm

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Jesus often cited Mosaic Law in His teachings and the words of the Prophets as being all about Him, so it could even be argued that only Judaism -- as described in the Torah and the books of the Prophets -- can legitimately lay claim to being the oldest form of "Christianity".  Shalom!
Actually I was born Jewish and I came to believe in Jesus as an adult. I consider myself Messianic Jew so I still follow Jewish law and believe in Jesus -- I go to Messianic congregations. So I am very much familiar with this line of thinking. And this is yet another example where people disagree on the labels depending on their personal beliefs. Messianics would claim that Jesus was following Biblical Judaism while Pharesees apostasized into Rabbinic Judaism (what Jesus called "traditions of men") so they rejected Him. On the other hand, traditional Jews would say that the Pharesees were following Biblical Judaism while Jesus was the one who apostasized. Hence they would disagree as to which side the Old Testament prophets would have taken: both claim they would have taken their own side.
Ahh ... but does Pharisaical Judaism still officially exist?  Do they still enact blood sacrifices on a daily, weekly, and yearly basis?  Do they still believe that violating even one of the Mitzvot makes a person "unclean" and unfit to worship G^D with the rest of the community?


Careful QFT, as you likely know, none of the core Judaic factions would consider you to be a Jew! As far as I know, even the reform branch of Judaism rejects Messianic Judaism as a humdrum derivative of Christianity. Believing in Christ disqualifies you from being a Jew. That is of course, the current stance of existing Jewish religious authorities and bodies.


_________________
Sebastian

"Don't forget to floss." - Darkwing Duck


Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 45,443
Location: Stendec

18 Dec 2020, 2:20 pm

Deltaville wrote:
Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Jesus often cited Mosaic Law in His teachings and the words of the Prophets as being all about Him, so it could even be argued that only Judaism -- as described in the Torah and the books of the Prophets -- can legitimately lay claim to being the oldest form of "Christianity".  Shalom!
Actually I was born Jewish and I came to believe in Jesus as an adult. I consider myself Messianic Jew so I still follow Jewish law and believe in Jesus -- I go to Messianic congregations. So I am very much familiar with this line of thinking. And this is yet another example where people disagree on the labels depending on their personal beliefs. Messianics would claim that Jesus was following Biblical Judaism while Pharesees apostasized into Rabbinic Judaism (what Jesus called "traditions of men") so they rejected Him. On the other hand, traditional Jews would say that the Pharesees were following Biblical Judaism while Jesus was the one who apostasized. Hence they would disagree as to which side the Old Testament prophets would have taken: both claim they would have taken their own side.
Ahh ... but does Pharisaical Judaism still officially exist?  Do they still enact blood sacrifices on a daily, weekly, and yearly basis?  Do they still believe that violating even one of the Mitzvot makes a person "unclean" and unfit to worship G^D with the rest of the community?
Careful QFT, as you likely know, none of the core Judaic factions would consider you to be a Jew! As far as I know, even the reform branch of Judaism rejects Messianic Judaism as a humdrum derivative of Christianity. Believing in Christ disqualifies you from being a Jew. That is of course, the current stance of existing Jewish religious authorities and bodies.
So the answer to my question is "Violate even one Mitzvot or declare Jesus as the Messiah, and you are no longer one of us!"  Thank you for confirming that.


_________________
TRE45ON!!
Anyone attempting to argue in defense of Donald Trump automatically loses the argument.


Mountain Goat
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 May 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,628
Location: Wales,UK Relationship: Single Interests: Trains AgeGroup: 40's FavouriteColor: Green Music: CyndiLauper Pets: Cats and Ducks

18 Dec 2020, 2:21 pm

Morally? None of us are good of ourselves. It is why we need Jesus.

Do I hold one person who has done a terrible thing as worse then one who has not? If the person who has done a terrible thing has repented and has been remorseful he or she is better then the one who has not done such a thing but accuses others of their sins (Self righteous).

We have had a murderer here in our house and he has totally changed after he repented before thr Lord while in prison. He is now a man who is the most gentle and kind that I have met. Prior to this he had been a hard man who was brought up to be tough. If you saw him today and compared you would not believe that it was the same person.

Now why is self rightousness so bad? Because it prevents the individual from repenting and recieving forgiveness for their sins. Hardness of heart is a terrible thing. In a way, the man who murdered had shocked himself so when someone gave him the Gospel message he broke down and cried as he knew he had done wrong, and knew that between himself and God that God forgave him.
But those that accuse a murderer (And I am not talking about the victims families or friends here who have had a terrible time but I am talking about those who are not involved in any way but point the finger) can be worse then the murdered him or herself as their hearts are hard and they refuse to see how they themselves have sinned. If one sin they do is pointed out they try to divert attention and say "I am not a murderer" instead of saying sorry and recieving forgiveness.

You see the human heart by nature is sinful. Only God can change things.

We may ask "Why is everything going wrong in this world?" The truth? Because people have hardened their hearts and have refused to repent before God.
It is not the amount of sin that someone has done that prevents them from coming into a relationship with God. It is the hardness of heart that stops most. Self righteousness is hardness of heart.

Repentance can smash the shell of heardness and that is where miriacles take place.

Paul who was once called Saul was a mass murderer yet when he saw Jesus he repented there and then!

Have you met with Jesus? Would you like to? It is just one prayer away!


_________________
Awaiting asessment. Neurodiverse 173/200. Neurotypical 21/200. Empathy 11/80. AQ 39.
Shutdown link: --》 I can relate: --》
Shutdown Experience similar to mine: --》


QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,788

18 Dec 2020, 2:22 pm

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Jesus often cited Mosaic Law in His teachings and the words of the Prophets as being all about Him, so it could even be argued that only Judaism -- as described in the Torah and the books of the Prophets -- can legitimately lay claim to being the oldest form of "Christianity".  Shalom!
Actually I was born Jewish and I came to believe in Jesus as an adult. I consider myself Messianic Jew so I still follow Jewish law and believe in Jesus -- I go to Messianic congregations. So I am very much familiar with this line of thinking. And this is yet another example where people disagree on the labels depending on their personal beliefs. Messianics would claim that Jesus was following Biblical Judaism while Pharesees apostasized into Rabbinic Judaism (what Jesus called "traditions of men") so they rejected Him. On the other hand, traditional Jews would say that the Pharesees were following Biblical Judaism while Jesus was the one who apostasized. Hence they would disagree as to which side the Old Testament prophets would have taken: both claim they would have taken their own side.
Ahh ... but does Pharisaical Judaism still officially exist?  Do they still enact blood sacrifices on a daily, weekly, and yearly basis?  Do they still believe that violating even one of the Mitzvot makes a person "unclean" and unfit to worship G^D with the rest of the community?


The aspects of Pharisaic Judaism that Messianics claim are fake is that they believed in what their rabbis taught. And traditional Judaism of today is guilty of the same charge, except that the teaching of rabbis changed as a result of disraction of the temple. For example, one thing rabbis say today is that you don't need a temple and sacrifices because various other things accomplish the same goal -- which Bible never says. Pharesees didn't have to say this because they had the temple. But, instead, they were saying various other things that Bible never says (such as handwashing ceremonies and so forth).

By the way Messianics also say that we don't need a temple. Messianics refer to the fact that Jesus replaces the temple. So that looks like a logical parallel to traditional Jews claiming that various things they do at the synagogue is replacement of the temple. But most Messianic Jews would disagree that its a parallel because they claim that their, Messianic, claim is found in the Bible while the traditional Jewish claim only comes from the teaching of rabbis rather than the Bible. Of course traditional Jews would disagree with it and find Bible passages that would back their view point. So yes, it is all up to interpretation.

I myself am Messianic Jew. But I became Messianic by a conscious choice: in particular, Christians believe in hell and Jews don't, so if Christians are right and I don't believe in Jesus I would go to hell, but if Jews are right and I do believe in Jesus, then I won't go to hell. So believing in Jesus is safer. If it wasn't for the hell argument, I would say there would be a lot of pros and cons on both sides.



QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,788

18 Dec 2020, 2:26 pm

Deltaville wrote:
Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Jesus often cited Mosaic Law in His teachings and the words of the Prophets as being all about Him, so it could even be argued that only Judaism -- as described in the Torah and the books of the Prophets -- can legitimately lay claim to being the oldest form of "Christianity".  Shalom!
Actually I was born Jewish and I came to believe in Jesus as an adult. I consider myself Messianic Jew so I still follow Jewish law and believe in Jesus -- I go to Messianic congregations. So I am very much familiar with this line of thinking. And this is yet another example where people disagree on the labels depending on their personal beliefs. Messianics would claim that Jesus was following Biblical Judaism while Pharesees apostasized into Rabbinic Judaism (what Jesus called "traditions of men") so they rejected Him. On the other hand, traditional Jews would say that the Pharesees were following Biblical Judaism while Jesus was the one who apostasized. Hence they would disagree as to which side the Old Testament prophets would have taken: both claim they would have taken their own side.
Ahh ... but does Pharisaical Judaism still officially exist?  Do they still enact blood sacrifices on a daily, weekly, and yearly basis?  Do they still believe that violating even one of the Mitzvot makes a person "unclean" and unfit to worship G^D with the rest of the community?


Careful QFT, as you likely know, none of the core Judaic factions would consider you to be a Jew! As far as I know, even the reform branch of Judaism rejects Messianic Judaism as a humdrum derivative of Christianity. Believing in Christ disqualifies you from being a Jew. That is of course, the current stance of existing Jewish religious authorities and bodies.


Yes, and thats why -- unlike most other Messianics -- I am fine with saying I am not a Jew. One particular argument in favor of this is that there are other sects of Christianity that follow Jewish law, and they don't claim to be Jewish. For example, Assembly of Yahweh and United Church of God follow both dietary laws as well as Jewish feasts. The Seventh Day Adventists don't follow the Jewish feasts but they *do* follow dietary laws. So since they don't claim to be Jews, why should Messianics?

But then again, if Messianics claim to be Jews then how can I really say they aren't Jewish? Also, some Jews believe in Shneerson as Messiah, yet they are still Jews, so why should believing in Jesus as Messiah be any different? I know the difference is that the Jews don't believe their Messiah to be God. But then there are some Messianic Jews that also don't believe Jesus to be God. Yes they are in a minority -- the majority of Messianics claim Jesus is God -- but they do exist (one example is the website www.torahofmessiah.com) So why can't *they* be considered Jewish then?

Yet like you said we are following the way most people call things. So if traditional Jewish community doesn't call them Jewish then they aren't. But then on the other hand since they call themselves Jewish then they are ...

So I guess its really a gray area. Thats why I don't like to really talk about semantics because there are arguments on both sides. I remember an ex-boyfriend of my former landlord, who is very far from religion, asked me "are you Jewish somewhat". I liked the word "somewhat" in there. Cause there are gray areas for sure.



QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,788

18 Dec 2020, 2:31 pm

Fnord wrote:
Deltaville wrote:
Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Jesus often cited Mosaic Law in His teachings and the words of the Prophets as being all about Him, so it could even be argued that only Judaism -- as described in the Torah and the books of the Prophets -- can legitimately lay claim to being the oldest form of "Christianity".  Shalom!
Actually I was born Jewish and I came to believe in Jesus as an adult. I consider myself Messianic Jew so I still follow Jewish law and believe in Jesus -- I go to Messianic congregations. So I am very much familiar with this line of thinking. And this is yet another example where people disagree on the labels depending on their personal beliefs. Messianics would claim that Jesus was following Biblical Judaism while Pharesees apostasized into Rabbinic Judaism (what Jesus called "traditions of men") so they rejected Him. On the other hand, traditional Jews would say that the Pharesees were following Biblical Judaism while Jesus was the one who apostasized. Hence they would disagree as to which side the Old Testament prophets would have taken: both claim they would have taken their own side.
Ahh ... but does Pharisaical Judaism still officially exist?  Do they still enact blood sacrifices on a daily, weekly, and yearly basis?  Do they still believe that violating even one of the Mitzvot makes a person "unclean" and unfit to worship G^D with the rest of the community?
Careful QFT, as you likely know, none of the core Judaic factions would consider you to be a Jew! As far as I know, even the reform branch of Judaism rejects Messianic Judaism as a humdrum derivative of Christianity. Believing in Christ disqualifies you from being a Jew. That is of course, the current stance of existing Jewish religious authorities and bodies.
So the answer to my question is "Violate even one Mitzvot or declare Jesus as the Messiah, and you are no longer one of us!"  Thank you for confirming that.


Half of the Jewish population don't believe in God, eat pork, etc. Yet they are still considered Jewish. While Messianics -- who don't eat pork and follow a lot of Jewish traditions -- are not considered Jewish. So that is inconsistency right there.



aghogday
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,272

18 Dec 2020, 2:34 pm

It's Worth Noting That The 'Coming Holy
Roman Empire'; Church And State, Hand-
In-Hand, Determined the Authority
And Story of Jesus to Be Taught;

As In Turn, All Christian
Sects Continue to Revise
As They Do As Days Go On now...

And Of Course Other Religions

Too Changing With Overall Culture too...

As There Ain't

No Escaping Change;

And The Reality That There
Is No Evidence That Jesus Actually
Wrote A Word as an Aramaic Illiterate Man;
As Is the Case For Folks In His Place of History;

So Of Course, the Story was Written Decades Later
By Greek Speaking Romans, Who Were Ghost Authors
Assigned Pen Names; as In Mark, Matthew, and Luke; Where

There Is No Mention of Jesus Referring to Himself as God; Only

That is 'Intimated' By the John Part of the Four Pen Names, Telling the Story;

And Of Course, Untold Numbers of Different Views of Innumerable Ghost Authors

For What it Took for The Stories to Come together, Be Selected, And Edited With even

Oral Traditions Coming From Many Sects From the Get Go For What Greek Speaking Roman

Ghost Authors, With Pen Names, Later Attached, Decided to Put in the Stories They Wrote; For

Whatever Style of Influence They Could Make With the Written Word. And Yes, Of Course Written,

Copied By Hand, By Innumerable Scribes Making Mistakes and Intentional Changes in the

Writings, Until 1455, With A First Printed Text of the 'Gutenberg Bible'; With Of Course the

Verse Numbers Not Added Until the 1300's In Scribe Copied Still Penmanship then.

Let's Face It,

THE FACTS,

'You'/We Aren't

Getting the Original

Coke Version of Jesus,

No Matter if 'You' Are

Catholic Or Protestant;

So, The Entire Argument

Really Holds No Water as to

Who is Right Or Wrong About

Who Jesus Was; It's All Speculation;

As The Only Folks Who Are Truly Getting

Worshipped Are Ghost Authors; Ironically,

Resurrected Every Day in Church This Way

Through Soul In the 'Poetry' They Wrote then;

No Different Than Any Other Art of Humankind

Resurrected in

The Fossil

Record of Human

Breath Still Relating

The Essence of Human Form In Arts...

Sure, Let's Call It Soul; Even More in

Some Ways Than Flesh and Blood

As it Does Breathe on Effectively as such...

As Much as i Appreciate Art, i will Never

Fall On Bended Knee to make Words God....

Yet i will Use Art, Including Writing Words

To Celebrate

Breath for that

IS A Greatest Worship

Of All Gratitude for this Gift;

This Breath Now; Why? Because

It is the Story That Truly Belongs to us now,

This Breath.

It's Interesting
That Very Few People
Provide Resources That
Back-Up or Do Not Back
Up These Discussions;

Particularly,

Among those

Who Suggest

They Are Fact Oriented Folks...

Clue: Just Proof, No Human is Really Close to Rational...

When it comes to the Breath of What Folks Believe, Anything Does go....

As Again, Neuroscience Shows Now we Basically Hallucinate our Reality,

Co-Creating it As We Go

Based on Past Experiences;

And sure, whatever

is Spoon-Fed

From Birth,

Fact Checked or Not;

Yet Now, We Have the Internet

And Links that Bring More And Less

Credence to Stories told before, on and off, '5th Avenue' still...

If We are to Believe The Core Teachings of the New Testament

That All the Pen Names Teach; Love is The Pay Grade, Pay Rate, And Currency

That is
The True

'Bread and Water'

Or Wine if Ya Wanna

Use An Alcohol Related

Metaphor too; That Much

All The Authors Agree with;

Yet truly, They Need to Put More

Emphasis on Cognitive Empathy

As You Do Not Do Unto Introverts

As An Extravert Wants to Be Treated, Etc...

And Expect to Make Many Relationships Work in life

Art it is

Always

Changing

Beyond All

Words Indeed to

See and Hear with

More Than Eyes or Ears...

To Do Least Harm to Others

And God Yes, The Rest of Nature True...

Trust me or not, if i or Others lived

Then, Similarly, There's A Good Chance

You Would Be Giving A Similar Style, The Same 'Attention'...

Yet, only if i am

Not

From

Your Land Then,

Hehe; as Tradition

Naturally Excludes

From Group Think What is New...

In all Testaments of Greater Truer

Loving Success in Life... Yet, Not So

Much For Cooperative Versus Competitive Folks...

Just the Way it is, A Fascinating Human Condition to

Continue to Study and Explore..

Trap it in one

Book; it

Stagnates

And Rots; Seen

It Happen on '5th Avenue' too...

The Story Breathes Rotten, No Different, For
Those Who Develop The Ability to More Clearly 2020 'See'... 'These Days' at least...

https://www.npr.org/2014/04/07/300246095/if-jesus-never-called-himself-god-how-did-he-become-one


_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick