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magz
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30 Jan 2021, 9:17 am

True, there are numerous philosophies like that - What doesn't kill us makes us stronger by Nietsche comes to my mind.
How do they relate to the reality? To some extent, I believe.

Do you, personally, think facing discrimination is a good thing?


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kraftiekortie
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30 Jan 2021, 9:23 am

It’s NEVER a good thing.

It could make one stubbornly stronger, though weakened by distrust.



magz
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30 Jan 2021, 9:41 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
It’s NEVER a good thing.

It could make one stubbornly stronger, though weakened by distrust.

Having experienced inter-generational trauma and seeing the mess we have here most likely because of our turbulent history - humans are adaptive beasts but it comes at a cost.


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30 Jan 2021, 2:07 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
The point of a photo is showing what racism everyone is okay with and won't challenge and whenever minorities speak up about this stuff, people get upset about it (white fragility) and say they are being too sensitive and all and say things like "people want to see racism now in everything."

I am guilty of colorblindness by seeing everyone as the same and seeing different skin color as having different eye color. This is color blindness. I think this is what many of us are.

Denial of white privilege, I had no idea what it meant to be privileged because I was thinking of things like stuff you earn eg. video games, watching TV, being allowed to ride a bike and these things would be taken from me as a punishment as a kid and my mom called these privileges. I guess this would be white privilege denial if we don't understand what it means to be privileged.


"Privilege", in the phrase "White privilege", means something UN earned. Thats the point. An advantage you have just because of your skin color. Whether you believe White privilege exists, or not, thats what it means.


The term "White Privilege" defines a real problem ass backwards. As said privilege is something unearned. If a cop sees a white guy driving drunk as a skunk and lets him go because he is white that is giving that driver unfair privilege based on race. If the cop arrests the guy that is not a privilege. Being treated as one should be is is not a matter of being unearned, it is a matter of fairness. Being treated unfairly based on skin color is discrimination. The much higher rates of discrimination based on black skin color are the problem "White Privilege" which assumes based on one's skin color one is being given things they did not earn.



I understand what white privilege is now. I just didn't know what it was when I first started hearing the word privilege being used in a way where you are just given advantages like being a poor person with a wealthy family is a privilege. Having a normal healthy family that is supportive is a privilege.

Growing up with a undiagnosed disorder but yet still being given all this support as a child to help make your life easier and being able to go to therapy and do classes like gymnastics or pottery is a privilege. Unfortunately not all families have the money to pay for private therapy and to pay for fun classes that would help their child and not all families have the time to work with their kid when they have to work all the time to make ends meet so all they have is the school to rely on and public therapy that the state pays for.

As a white person, I can't really understand what it is like to be a person of color. I never been racially profiled. People trying to say "I have had that happen to me too" to minimize racism issues can be white privilege denial I suppose.


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30 Jan 2021, 2:09 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Image


Colour blindness? What's wrong with ignoring someone's race? Why would someone's race be relevant to pretty much anything whatsoever?



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30 Jan 2021, 2:10 pm

magz wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The term "White Privilege" defines a real problem ass backwards. As said privilege is something unearned. If a cop sees a white guy driving drunk as a skunk and lets him go because he is white that is giving that driver unfair privilege based on race. If the cop arrests the guy that is not a privilege. Being treated as one should be is is not a matter of being unearned, it is a matter of fairness. Being treated unfairly based on skin color is discrimination. The much higher rates of discrimination based on black skin color are the problem "White Privilege" which assumes based on one's skin color one is being given things they did not earn.

I have similar view on it. When I was asking people to describe what "white privilege" is, they usually gave examples of... being treated with basic decency.
It should never be anyone's "privilege" to go about your life without being harassed. It's not problematic that some have it, it's scandalous that some lack it!

But I suspect the term was coined among people who grew up with discrimination being their "normal". From such point of view, it makes sense. But discrimination is not normal and lack of it should never be a privilege.



The term "white privilege" was coined by this woman named Peggy Mcintosh in the year 1988 when she published an article called, "White Privilege and Male Privilege: A Personal Account of Coming to See Correspondences Through Work in Women’s Studies".


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30 Jan 2021, 2:11 pm

Nades wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Image


Colour blindness? What's wrong with ignoring someone's race? Why would someone's race be relevant to pretty much anything whatsoever?



viewtopic.php?f=20&t=394103&start=16#p8705330


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30 Jan 2021, 2:34 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Nades wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Image


Colour blindness? What's wrong with ignoring someone's race? Why would someone's race be relevant to pretty much anything whatsoever?



viewtopic.php?f=20&t=394103&start=16#p8705330


To be honest I don't really go up to black people and say "wow, you're looking so black today" I usually just say "Hi, have you seen this video on Youtube about that guy crashing a boat into a pole?" I have never brought up someone's race with anyone really and I don't see how it makes people racist to treat someone who's black exactly the same as someone who's white. There is nothing white supremacist at all about it.

"Don't blame me, I never owned a slave" is also not white supremacy most of the times. The majority of people today have not benefited from slavery hundreds of years ago. If white supremacy or racism is insinuated against people who say that then it needs to be backed up by the one accusing.

The rest are sort of valid to some extent but only if they can be proven.



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30 Jan 2021, 4:32 pm

magz wrote:
True, there are numerous philosophies like that - What doesn't kill us makes us stronger by Nietsche comes to my mind.
How do they relate to the reality? To some extent, I believe.

Do you, personally, think facing discrimination is a good thing?

I think *white privilege* should be renamed *white comfort*.

Philosophically, we cannot know if comfort or hardship is a privilege.


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30 Jan 2021, 6:12 pm

magz wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
White privilege ignores the philosophies that say *hardship makes you better/stronger*.

That sounds dangerous - like encouraging being mean to others to "make them better".
Going proudly through hardships is noble. C-PTSD trauma survivors show what happens when hardships go too far.


I would not say that it is dangerously close to something, it is exactly the sort of thing that abusers say to try and justify the abuse. Moving a discussion away from whether someone is being harmed by arguing that they are doing them a favour by subjecting them to the abuse. It is like a parent saying that they spent all their child's savings on cigarettes because adversity makes them stronger, maybe even expecting to be thanked because they then happened to become successful with money, which they argue is partially because of their trauma. Perhaps some people are managed to be pushed further because they had some struggles, but it does not justify other problems that can be caused like trust issues, a cycle of abuse, and that a lot of people, perhaps the majority, do not benefit from that abuse.

I am not saying that TheRobotLives is an abuser themselves, but they should really change this mindset before they start to justify beating kids and allowing bullying because it makes the kids stronger.


Nades wrote:
To be honest I don't really go up to black people and say "wow, you're looking so black today" I usually just say "Hi, have you seen this video on Youtube about that guy crashing a boat into a pole?" I have never brought up someone's race with anyone really and I don't see how it makes people racist to treat someone who's black exactly the same as someone who's white. There is nothing white supremacist at all about it.

"Don't blame me, I never owned a slave" is also not white supremacy most of the times. The majority of people today have not benefited from slavery hundreds of years ago. If white supremacy or racism is insinuated against people who say that then it needs to be backed up by the one accusing.

The rest are sort of valid to some extent but only if they can be proven.


The reason that some of those fit in the racism camps is that they are often used to justify being able to ignore things like systematic racism. Asking why they should care about a class of people that was created from being slaves and have been under some systematic disadvantages as a group for that ever since. It shouldn't have to be a case of whether you or even your ancestor owned slaves, but whether you might have benefit from a system that benefited from there being slaves that has disadvantaged another group.

It is not even about needing to feel guilty or not, but at leas recognising that the experiences of other people is real, rather than someone saying they don't see colour and so other people have the same experiences as them.


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30 Jan 2021, 6:28 pm

Bradleigh wrote:
[
I am not saying that TheRobotLives is an abuser themselves, but they should really change this mindset before they start to justify beating kids and allowing bullying because it makes the kids stronger.

This is not about justification.

This is about reality, physics, about what happens in reality.

Like the Johnny Cash song, *Boy Named Sue*.

His dad named him a girl's name, so he would be tough from all the abuse.


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30 Jan 2021, 6:34 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
This is not about justification.

This is about reality, physics, about what happens in reality.

Like the Johnny Cash song, *Boy Named Sue*.

His dad named him a girl's name, so he would be tough from all the abuse.


So, are you standing by a statement that abuse is beneficial to people and thus totally fine to be allowed? Maybe even beneficial to a lack of abuse?


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30 Jan 2021, 6:53 pm

Bradleigh wrote:
magz wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
White privilege ignores the philosophies that say *hardship makes you better/stronger*.

That sounds dangerous - like encouraging being mean to others to "make them better".
Going proudly through hardships is noble. C-PTSD trauma survivors show what happens when hardships go too far.


I would not say that it is dangerously close to something, it is exactly the sort of thing that abusers say to try and justify the abuse. Moving a discussion away from whether someone is being harmed by arguing that they are doing them a favour by subjecting them to the abuse. It is like a parent saying that they spent all their child's savings on cigarettes because adversity makes them stronger, maybe even expecting to be thanked because they then happened to become successful with money, which they argue is partially because of their trauma. Perhaps some people are managed to be pushed further because they had some struggles, but it does not justify other problems that can be caused like trust issues, a cycle of abuse, and that a lot of people, perhaps the majority, do not benefit from that abuse.

I am not saying that TheRobotLives is an abuser themselves, but they should really change this mindset before they start to justify beating kids and allowing bullying because it makes the kids stronger.


Nades wrote:
To be honest I don't really go up to black people and say "wow, you're looking so black today" I usually just say "Hi, have you seen this video on Youtube about that guy crashing a boat into a pole?" I have never brought up someone's race with anyone really and I don't see how it makes people racist to treat someone who's black exactly the same as someone who's white. There is nothing white supremacist at all about it.

"Don't blame me, I never owned a slave" is also not white supremacy most of the times. The majority of people today have not benefited from slavery hundreds of years ago. If white supremacy or racism is insinuated against people who say that then it needs to be backed up by the one accusing.

The rest are sort of valid to some extent but only if they can be proven.


The reason that some of those fit in the racism camps is that they are often used to justify being able to ignore things like systematic racism. Asking why they should care about a class of people that was created from being slaves and have been under some systematic disadvantages as a group for that ever since. It shouldn't have to be a case of whether you or even your ancestor owned slaves, but whether you might have benefit from a system that benefited from there being slaves that has disadvantaged another group.

It is not even about needing to feel guilty or not, but at leas recognising that the experiences of other people is real, rather than someone saying they don't see colour and so other people have the same experiences as them.



I think when people say they don't see color, I think they really do mean it. I notice with myself, I often don't pay attention to skin color, if I go into a store and I pay, I am not even thinking about skin color of the cashier. But I guess this is racist after all and I am supposed to pay attention to skin color when I interact with people?

I still have that childlike mindset about skin color because this is how kids see color. Remember that post that went viral when a mom shared that her kid wanted to get the same hair cut as his black friend so the teacher wouldn't tell them apart? Her kid was white and it went viral because kids are color blind and don't see color. But my question is at what age does this become racist when you still have this innocent mindset about color?


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30 Jan 2021, 7:01 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
magz wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
White privilege ignores the philosophies that say *hardship makes you better/stronger*.

That sounds dangerous - like encouraging being mean to others to "make them better".
Going proudly through hardships is noble. C-PTSD trauma survivors show what happens when hardships go too far.


I would not say that it is dangerously close to something, it is exactly the sort of thing that abusers say to try and justify the abuse. Moving a discussion away from whether someone is being harmed by arguing that they are doing them a favour by subjecting them to the abuse. It is like a parent saying that they spent all their child's savings on cigarettes because adversity makes them stronger, maybe even expecting to be thanked because they then happened to become successful with money, which they argue is partially because of their trauma. Perhaps some people are managed to be pushed further because they had some struggles, but it does not justify other problems that can be caused like trust issues, a cycle of abuse, and that a lot of people, perhaps the majority, do not benefit from that abuse.

I am not saying that TheRobotLives is an abuser themselves, but they should really change this mindset before they start to justify beating kids and allowing bullying because it makes the kids stronger.


Nades wrote:
To be honest I don't really go up to black people and say "wow, you're looking so black today" I usually just say "Hi, have you seen this video on Youtube about that guy crashing a boat into a pole?" I have never brought up someone's race with anyone really and I don't see how it makes people racist to treat someone who's black exactly the same as someone who's white. There is nothing white supremacist at all about it.

"Don't blame me, I never owned a slave" is also not white supremacy most of the times. The majority of people today have not benefited from slavery hundreds of years ago. If white supremacy or racism is insinuated against people who say that then it needs to be backed up by the one accusing.

The rest are sort of valid to some extent but only if they can be proven.


The reason that some of those fit in the racism camps is that they are often used to justify being able to ignore things like systematic racism. Asking why they should care about a class of people that was created from being slaves and have been under some systematic disadvantages as a group for that ever since. It shouldn't have to be a case of whether you or even your ancestor owned slaves, but whether you might have benefit from a system that benefited from there being slaves that has disadvantaged another group.

It is not even about needing to feel guilty or not, but at leas recognising that the experiences of other people is real, rather than someone saying they don't see colour and so other people have the same experiences as them.



I think when people say they don't see color, I think they really do mean it. I notice with myself, I often don't pay attention to skin color, if I go into a store and I pay, I am not even thinking about skin color of the cashier. But I guess this is racist after all and I am supposed to pay attention to skin color when I interact with people?

I still have that childlike mindset about skin color because this is how kids see color. Remember that post that went viral when a mom shared that her kid wanted to get the same hair cut as his black friend so the teacher wouldn't tell them apart? Her kid was white and it went viral because kids are color blind and don't see color. But my question is at what age does this become racist when you still have this innocent mindset about color?


I think that i will just ...beat my head against the wall for a few minutes.

Now Im done.

Ok..to be "colorblind" - in that sense... to not see the skin color of folks...is considered a GOOD thing, and is considered to be the opposite of being racist. To stay innocent like that would be considered a good thing.



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30 Jan 2021, 7:04 pm

League_Girl wrote:
But my question is at what age does this become racist when you still have this innocent mindset about color?


When it might cause you to ignore the experiences of other people based on their skin colour. It does not mean you have to treat people differently, just understand that a person can have a different experience because of how they look. Able to believe when a person of colour says that they were treated differently because of how they look.


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30 Jan 2021, 7:47 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Ok..to be "colorblind" - in that sense... to not see the skin color of folks...is considered a GOOD thing, and is considered to be the opposite of being racist. To stay innocent like that would be considered a good thing.

Used to be. Not anymore. A lot of mainstream people view color blindness as a or the problem.


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