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Fnord
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05 Feb 2021, 3:29 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
magz wrote:
Things like eschatological beliefs are not subject to objective measurements, thus, scientific method is not applicable. Scientific method works exactly because of its limitation to objectively measurable phenomena.
Can you do me one favor here and stop throwing me red meat - unless you'd like to continue this conversation elsewhere? ...
Are you requesting that Magz "stop supporting science or leave the conversation"?


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techstepgenr8tion
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05 Feb 2021, 3:30 pm

Fnord wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
magz wrote:
Things like eschatological beliefs are not subject to objective measurements, thus, scientific method is not applicable. Scientific method works exactly because of its limitation to objectively measurable phenomena.
Can you do me one favor here and stop throwing me red meat - unless you'd like to continue this conversation elsewhere? ...
Are you requesting that Magz "stop supporting science or leave the conversation"?

^^ A snapshot before you delete it.


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Fnord
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05 Feb 2021, 3:31 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Fnord wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
magz wrote:
Things like eschatological beliefs are not subject to objective measurements, thus, scientific method is not applicable. Scientific method works exactly because of its limitation to objectively measurable phenomena.
Can you do me one favor here and stop throwing me red meat - unless you'd like to continue this conversation elsewhere? ...
Are you requesting that Magz "stop supporting science or leave the conversation"?
^^ Before you delete it.
Well, are you?


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techstepgenr8tion
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05 Feb 2021, 3:33 pm

Fnord wrote:
Well, are you?

You don't get to win every argument in this folder and others through complete incoherence and Cathy Newmanisms.


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“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin


magz
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05 Feb 2021, 3:44 pm

Fnord wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
magz wrote:
Things like eschatological beliefs are not subject to objective measurements, thus, scientific method is not applicable. Scientific method works exactly because of its limitation to objectively measurable phenomena.
Can you do me one favor here and stop throwing me red meat - unless you'd like to continue this conversation elsewhere? ...
Are you requesting that Magz "stop supporting science or leave the conversation"?
No, he's not - if I correctly understand the idiom of "throwing red meat" as teasing with something exciting.

Now, I remind you both not to go personal, okay?


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05 Feb 2021, 3:45 pm

I want my body to be useful.

Ideally on a medicinal basis.

If not then at least used somehow.

There's a museum I've been to where they still use the skeletons & dress them up & they're 1000 years old.

It's like a kind of immortality in a way.


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Rexi
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05 Feb 2021, 3:55 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
For me, the times when I've been most at peace were when I was most happy, like sitting in front of a roaring fire by the lake with somebody I loved. That would have been the perfect time to die, with no need for theorizing what occurs when the brain winds down.

I'm coming to think that it's actually more common than might have been supposed (by earlier thinkers at least) that people can enjoy their own company. It's when they have to go to work, school, etc. and deal with Machiavellian characteristics in others that typically spoils it. This is part of why I also really enjoy my alone time and make the most of it - whether reading, listening to music, catching lectures, or whatever else I can do that's both useful and stimulating.

VegetableMan wrote:
These perplexing mechanisms we call "brains" are a b***h! Existing without the knowledge of our own mortality would be so much easier.

John Gray's actually written a lot about the resilience of animals in that they don't have to think of death - they just are in the moment. Pursuit of Wonder actually had an excellent video among others that proves there's an afterlife and heavens real and.....lol......just kidding, it's on existentialism and these exact points about the human condition and how we're really riveted by our insights into the nihilistic nature of reality - ie. can't live with them, wouldn't choose to live without them either.


Except crows. Crows think about death and other things and remember witnessing trauma for months. They can probably also temper their emotions, see i argued with this crow which was loud with its friend and it shut up. Better than most people.


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Last edited by Rexi on 05 Feb 2021, 3:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

aghogday
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05 Feb 2021, 3:57 pm

Perhaps, Something Different; Far From Only Objective; Yes, Subjective

That Hasn't Been Observed Before; Yet Shared As Philosophy That Helps

Folks Gain A Greater Path In Life....

Ya Can't Always Rely on Science

For Remission of Disease; Placebo

Works; Yet Not the Sugar Pill; Yet A Connection

Of Love Enough for Willingness to Believe in a Greater Outcome...

In Other 'Words', Mind Over Matter; There is Some Philosophy That will

Only Be Measured By Arts

of Course Including

Poetry, A Way

We may

Communicate

By Metaphors That May

Help Some Folks to Understand

Where Others May only See What is said

As 'Word Salad'; That's not too Odd on a Forum

Where Some Folks Have Difficulty With Metaphor;

Yet that's only One Part of the Spectrum of Autism;

As There are those Who Are Close to Empath And Farther

Away from HeART Aloof...

We Need Scientists,

And We Need Artists,

to Keep the Yang and Yin

Of Life Balanced on a Greater Scale

of Success in Culture And Societies Overall; Yes, For Real,

Additionally, Epigenetic Change Is Potential And of Course

So Is Neuroplasticity; Exploring And Adapting to

Unknown Environments And Challenges

Indeed May Unpack

DNA

Like

'Clark Kent'

Becoming Supernormal,

Like 'Superman'; Yet don't

Let me bore 'Ya' with those

Details Again, Hehe; It's True

In this Life There is 'Ripley Believe it or not' And 'Horatio';

God Yes, THere is Remission From Deadly Disease by Placebo

And Science Even Shows now that Meditative Flow As Regular Practice Actually

Regenerates Gray Brain Matter; So Wow, in Some ways 'the Fountain of Youth' is Real...

True, Yes, Visualize Exercise In Mind over Matter That Way and Science Shows Empirical

Measures of Strength Occur; For What We Will Find On this Forum Are Scientists and

Artists; True, We Need Both For A Philosophy of Life That Works; Literal Heaven instead

Of Hell

Might

Be A Greater

Effective Result Measurable

Indeed for a Philosophy Without

Even Any Science For Empirical Results Still to come...

No Need to Wait on an Abstract in Research to Go to Heaven

Now; Not Even A Church, Not Even An Organized Religion For Indeed

This Place Within, When We Become Reborn From Living Dead is Mind Over Matter

For Real

What

Will Be

Never Measured Alone

Empirically By Science Is

Love; Home Sweet Home; Love For Real...

When We Live; When We Truly Really Live; 'A Best' of All Homes...

Simply

A Best Indeed...

Oldest Most Enduring

Philosophies of Life are

Steeped in Poetry

And Other

Arts;

Not everyone's

'Cup of English Tea';

Yet Other Folks Savior's

of Life Indeed; Simply 'A Best'....

Science is A Tool; Love is Beyond Measure alone...

Considering Science Shows Love Basically Eliminates

Fear When Pure And Agape Healing; Removing Anxiety

As Even Oxytocin Delivering Naturally Will; iT Ain't that 'Bad' to try

to Understand

With Both

Art

And Science True...

Dam Sure Beats

A Continuing Real Option of

A Living DeatH; A Stone Barely Breathing;

There are some Days Where Anecdotal Metaphorical Evidence is Enough 'for one'...

Call It whatever Label Ya Like; 'Metaphysics' Or Whatever; Yet Ironically, the FACT iS It Works;

Even 'the Infant of Science' Is Finally Dropping 'A Diaper' and Putting 'Bigger Boy Pants' on...


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techstepgenr8tion
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05 Feb 2021, 4:03 pm

Rexi wrote:
Except crows. Crows think about death and other things and remember witnessing trauma for months. They can also temper their emotions, see i argued with this crow which was loud with its friend and it shut up. Better than most people.

They seem to have a particularly interesting way of both transmitting information between members of flocks (don't know how wide the effect ranges) and across generations. It'll be interesting to see if we're able to find out more on that:

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/science/26crow.html


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05 Feb 2021, 4:18 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
The closest I came to believing in an afterlife was 6 years after my friend committed suicide. Well, obviously grief is often a motivating factor for adobting such beliefs. Nobody wants to believe somebody they love is gone forever.

I didn't really come that close, probably. But I wanted to believe so bad.

Sending hugs, glad you didn't :heart:


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05 Feb 2021, 4:23 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Rexi wrote:
Except crows. Crows think about death and other things and remember witnessing trauma for months. They can also temper their emotions, see i argued with this crow which was loud with its friend and it shut up. Better than most people.

They seem to have a particularly interesting way of both transmitting information between members of flocks (don't know how wide the effect ranges) and across generations. It'll be interesting to see if we're able to find out more on that:

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/science/26crow.html
One time they flocked up on the sky, like so many probably from around the city and kept flying in circles like a tornado of birds then it split in two parts. Probably something bad happened, they don't take well to danger and team up with fellows.

And there's a case where a budgie helped a murder case and recognized the murderer of his mama. He still recognizes her in pictures.


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techstepgenr8tion
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05 Feb 2021, 8:33 pm

Jim Rutt (GameB head, self-disclosed naive realist), interviewing philospher Forrest Landry on his Immanent Metaphysics which makes the disctinction - when given the debate of things like idealism vs. realism, taking the relationship between 'things' as more primary than subject or object and thus saying it's really six one way, half dozen the other.

Again, discussing ontology and epistemology because it's foundational.


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05 Feb 2021, 10:47 pm

^^ I'm putting together cliffs notes that I'll share in a few hours (listening a second time) because it's dense but really interesting stuff. Recursive three-part model of relationships.


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06 Feb 2021, 3:29 pm

Update: in attempting to rekindle my spiritual side once again, I thought of an idea that I really liked. We come from the void, and return to it after we die. Like ashes to ashes, but in a different way.


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06 Feb 2021, 9:58 pm

more than one person has said we are a projection from a higher dimensional reality.



techstepgenr8tion
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06 Feb 2021, 10:00 pm

auntblabby wrote:
more than one person has said we are a projection from a higher dimensional reality.

NDE's beat the heck out of that drum.

Iain McGilchrist, another Sam Harris podcast in last few days, where around 40 minutes in Iain brings up that he's of the opinion that the left and right brain receive rather than originate consciousness.


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