The Woke Generation - Fighting Back
Lots of dubious logic there.
Firstly, that ISN'T like socialism, because socialist policies would be voted for. Just the same as capitalist or centrist policies are voted for, every time there's an election. So the only "imposing" going on would be thanks to democratic representation. And if things don't work out so well, there'll be a chance to change things again at the next election. It's not permanent and anyone who thinks they have a better set of ideas is welcome to promote them, and thus (if elected) impose their views to the same degree. Are you thinking of totalitarian, communist dictatorships, perchance? Because if so, they're very different.
Secondly, if your idea of fun is deliberately imposing anything on a group precisely because they don't want it, all that proves is you have a sadistic streak. The actual examples chosen to illustrate that don't really matter, provided it would actually happen in the manner described.... So again, your comparison might work for a communist (or indeed fascist) dictatorship, because they tend to enjoy bullying other people in retribution for their own inherent failures. It's much harder to find a natural enemy for the moderate left or the moderate right, because that's not the way they generally work. Might still play the blame game to a certain extent but I'm not sure they get off on actually persecuting anyone.
Last edited by Redd_Kross on 07 Feb 2021, 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
At the risk of sound ageist: Thank the lawd bebe jebuz these are the thoughts of old people who are nearer to the end of their lives & will be gone soon along with them.
lol, hopefully they will all die off of old age you mean while the younger generation of wokeness takes over.
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ASPartOfMe
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At the risk of sound ageist: Thank the lawd bebe jebuz these are the thoughts of old people who are nearer to the end of their lives & will be gone soon along with them.
For some of us that want to err on the side of free expression it is not a matter of hate being ok it is a matter of the lesser of two evils and slippery slope. For many of those that want more censorship and consequence for hate expression it is also a matter of the lesser of two evils and slippery slope. The disagreement is in what is the lesser of two evils and has a better chance of slippery slope occurring. Both sides have plenty of historical and current examples they can point to.
As far as ageism goes the title of this thread is a partial misnomer. While the younger generations are generally more woke the alt right is a heavily younger person phenomenon in that what often separates the alt right from the more traditional right is the use of social media(think Candice Owens, gun girl Kaitlin Bennett)
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At the risk of sound ageist: Thank the lawd bebe jebuz these are the thoughts of old people who are nearer to the end of their lives & will be gone soon along with them.
lol, hopefully they will all die off of old age you mean while the younger generation of wokeness takes over.
Yes, exactly this.
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goldfish21
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At the risk of sound ageist: Thank the lawd bebe jebuz these are the thoughts of old people who are nearer to the end of their lives & will be gone soon along with them.
For some of us that want to err on the side of free expression it is not a matter of hate being ok it is a matter of the lesser of two evils and slippery slope. For many of those that want more censorship and consequence for hate expression it is also a matter of the lesser of two evils and slippery slope. The disagreement is in what is the lesser of two evils and has a better chance of slippery slope occurring. Both sides have plenty of historical and current examples they can point to.
As far as ageism goes the title of this thread is a partial misnomer. While the younger generations are generally more woke the alt right is a heavily younger person phenomenon in that what often separates the alt right from the more traditional right is the use of social media(think Candice Owens, gun girl Kaitlin Bennett)
You think woke people aren't fans of freedom of expression? Clearly you don't know any queer black drag queens! Woke people are A-okay with freedom of expression. Freedom to express hate & bigotry, otoh, is an entirely different story.. yeeeeeah, you can basically shove that where the sun don't shine.
Young alt right extremists exist, yes, but they've typically been radicalized by old ideas from older people. The ideas need to die whether they're in the heads of young or old.
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I realize the faddish thing to say these days is that we live in the worst, most broken and backward country in the world and maybe in the history of civilization. It’s utter nonsense.
I have a few basic litmus tests in my own life: Can I wear a tank top in public? Can I walk down the street holding the hand of my partner, a (beautiful) woman, in many places in America without getting a second glance? Can I wear a Jewish star without fear?
I do not take those things for granted. I know very well that in many other places, the answers would be different, and my life wouldn’t be possible at all.
America is imperfect. (Does it even need to be said?) There is bigotry toward Blacks and gays and Jews and immigrants; there is intense polarization; political violence is becoming more regular; elected representatives believe conspiracy theories. All true here as in many other countries being torn apart by the dislocations of the 21st century.
But there is no gulag in America. There are no laws permitting honor killings. There is no formal social credit system of the kind that exists right now in China.
By any measure, we have achieved incredible progress and enjoy extraordinary freedoms. And yet people aren’t acting that way. They are acting, increasingly, like subjects in a totalitarian country.
These people write to me daily. They admit to regularly censoring themselves at work and with friends; succumbing to social pressure to tweet the right hashtag; to parroting slogans they do not believe to protect their livelihoods, like the greengrocer in Václav Havel’s famous essay "The Power of the Powerless."
These people aren’t crazy. They are scared for good reason.
How much does it cost me to log on to Twitter and accuse you, right now, of an -ism? America is fast developing its own informal social credit system, as the writer Rod Dreher has noted, in which people with the wrong politics or online persona are banned from social media sites and online financial networks.
When everything is recorded for eternity, when making mistakes and taking risks are transformed into capital offenses, when things that were common sense until two seconds ago become unsayable, people make the understandable decision to simply shut up.
Do not nod along when you hear the following: That Abraham Lincoln’s name on a public school or his likeness on a statue is white supremacy. (It is not; he is a hero.) That separating people into racial affinity groups is progressive. (It is a form of segregation.) That looting has no victims (untrue) and that small-business owners can cope anyway because they have insurance (nonsense). That any disparity of outcome is evidence of systemic oppression (false). That America is evil. (It is the last hope on Earth.)
This list could go on for a thousand pages. These may have become conventional wisdom in certain circles, but they are lies.
Yet too many good people are sacrificing the common good, and therefore their long-term security, for the sake of short-term comfort.
It’s time to stand up and fight back. That means you. Social conservatives. Never-Trump Republicans, and anti-anti-Trump Republicans, too. Lukewarm liberals and libertarians. Progressives who have a little curiosity still left. Exhausted parents who want nothing to do with politics. Joe Rogan stans. Reddit revolutionaries and the hedgies getting crushed. Facebookers and email chainers and Etsy-shop owners and Boomers who still use AOL accounts.
Bari Weiss then goes on to list 10 steps people can take:
Woke culture is dominating our lives -- here are 10 ways to fight back
This is called a strawman argument. It is misrepresenting an "other" side in order to use its own arguments to refute those points. It is 2021, can't we focus on real issues and not simply ideological posturing?
They are real issues. People are being censored and fired and do fear expressing certain opinions.
Poll: 62% of Americans say they have political views they're afraid to share
These fears cross partisan lines. Majorities of Democrats (52%), independents (59%) and Republicans (77%) all agree they have political opinions they are afraid to share.
Liberals are divided on political expression
Strong liberals stand out, however, as the only political group who feel they can express themselves.
Although strong liberals are the only group who feel they can say what they believe, the share who feel pressured to self‐censor rose 12 points from 30% in 2017 to 42% in 2020. The share of moderates who self‐censor increased 7 points from 57% to 64%, and the share of conservatives rose 70% to 77%, also a 7‐point increase. Strong conservatives are the only group with little change. They are about as likely now (77%) to say they hold back their views as in 2017 (76%).
Self‐censorship is widespread across demographic groups as well. Nearly two‐thirds of Latino Americans (65%) and White Americans (64%) and nearly half of African Americans (49%) have political views they are afraid to share. Majorities of men (65%) and women (59%), people with incomes over $100,000 (60%) and people with incomes less than $20,000 (58%), people under 35 (55%) and over 65 (66%), religious (71%) and non‐religious (56%) all agree that the political climate prevents them from expressing their true beliefs.
50% of strong liberals support firing trump donors; 36% of strong conservatives support firing Biden donors
The survey found that many Americans think a person's private political donations should impact their employment. Nearly a quarter (22%) of Americans would support firing a business executive who personally donates to Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden's campaign. Even more, 31% support firing a business executive who donates to Donald Trump's re‐election campaign.
32% worry their political views could harm their employment
Nearly a third (32%) of employed Americans say they personally are worried about missing out on career opportunities or losing their job if their political opinions became known. These results are particularly notable given that most personal campaign
contributions to political candidates are public knowledge and can easily be found online.
And it's not just one side of the political spectrum: 31% of liberals, 30% of moderates and 34% of conservatives are worried their political views could get them fired or harm their career trajectory. This suggests that it's not necessarily just one particular set of views that has moved outside of acceptable public discourse. Instead these results are more consistent with a "walking on eggshells" thesis that people increasingly fear a wide range of political views could offend others or could negatively impact themselves.
Again this thread about woke, not progressivism or Democratic Socialism. While some people are in all three camps they do not conflate.
Bernie Sanders defends Ann Coulter’s right to speak
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goldfish21
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Why is this a problem?
Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences when you say something awful or illegal, ie hate speech.
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No for supporting trump. Because doing so is deplorable.
Attracting bigots is an inevitable consequence of defining your cause as "fighting wokeness." I urge you to reconsider calling yourself "anti-woke," when what you are really against is fanaticism and mob mentality. Please see the following:
- A history of “wokeness” by Aja Romano, Vox, Oct 9, 2020
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Woke Britain sees record number of free speech complaints
The Freedom of Speech Union (FSU), set up by the journalist Toby Young, is marking its first anniversary this weekend having already provided legal support for between 500 and 700 individual cases. The anniversary comes a week after a ComRes poll commissioned by the actor and political activist Lawrence Fox revealed that 50 percent of people believe free speech is under threat while only 24 percent disagreed.
It also comes after North West Leicestershire MP Andrew Bridgen has been in talks with Home Office advisors to scrap hate speech laws which form the basis for many of the actions brought against the people the FSU has protected.
The organisation was set up largely to counter the so called woke agenda where people who do not conform to political correctness are no platformed, cancelled, sacked or even face criminal prosecution.
In the last 12 months the FSU has helped bus drivers, social workers, council employees, civil servants, police officers, students and teachers.
It has also helped high profile people like former Home Secretary Amber Rudd, the historian Selina Todd and the journalist Suzanne Moore who was pushed out of the Guardian for questioning claims made by trans activists.
A breakdown of the cases has shown that around 30 are from university and further education, 15 percent other public sector including councils, 25 percent private sector, 20 perWoke Britain sees record number of free speech complaintscent schools and curriculum related, and 10% from the charity, third sector and others.
Mr Young, General Secretary of the Free Speech Union, said: “The Government has rightly recognised that there is a serious problem around free speech on campus, but the silencing of those with dissenting views.”
He went on: “Most of our cases involve threats to students by universities, to ordinary workers by their employers and, most worrying of all, investigations by the police into 'non-crime hate incidents' – such as 'misgenderding' people on social media. Why can't they police our streets instead of our tweets?
Mr Young added: "Free speech is the very foundation of our democracy. It allows us to hold those in authority to account, to expose wrongdoing and to robustly debate the most important issues of our time. For all our sakes, it must be protected.”
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It is Autism Acceptance Month
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
ASPartOfMe
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Attracting bigots is an inevitable consequence of defining your cause as "fighting wokeness." I urge you to reconsider calling yourself "anti-woke," when what you are really against is fanaticism and mob mentality. Please see the following:
- A history of “wokeness” by Aja Romano, Vox, Oct 9, 2020
Fanaticism and mob mentally are vanilla terms, they can mean anybody. Wokeism is a specific type of fanaticism. It is a certain type of illiberal world view. Mobs are a tactic in this sphere.
Attracting bigots or just plain old scummy people is inevitable in fighting for or against anything. We have our own Aspie Supremacists.
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It is Autism Acceptance Month
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
goldfish21
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So, basically, not only are you autistically against change to the max, but also you really just hate the idea of young people making progressive societal improvements that create better balance and equality in power dynamics by ethnic or minority group. Got it. Woke = baaaaadddd.. especially since it involves being nice to people that are different than you.
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ASPartOfMe
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Woke is the opposite of nice, it is about cancelling people, confronting people, making people “uncomfortable” 24/7 for the purpose of exhausting people that disagree with them.
It is about being against the goal of colorblindness.
You are right in that me being autistic very much informs my opposition to woke but not for the reasons you think.
Woke emphasizes intersectionality. In and of itself the idea is not wrong. The more minority groups you belong to the more chances you will be at a disadvantage and discriminated against. But it is turning into your groups completely define you and instead of being a part of who you are.
This groupcentric world view is a key to understanding my opposition. While I identify as autistic there is that expression “if you have met one autistic you have met one autistic”. Allowing individuality is important. Many autistics such as me thrive better and are happier by ourselves.
As an autistic why would I want to err on the side of free expression for ableists, why would I want to allow their hate speech? Woke is for minorities, why would I be against that? It is precisely to because I am a member of this very small minority. For the most part the wokes have stayed away from autism concentrating on racial, sexuality, and gender issues. Eventually they will get around to us and I don’t think that will be a good thing. Wokes love diversity when it is diversity they like and if you don’t agree conform, conform and Autistics are often non conformists and as such may very well be viewed as a hate group that needs canceling. Advocate for not curing a disease that makes peoples lives miserable and kills them, that is hate speech. I can envision Autistics literalness and lack of understanding of euphemisms being misunderstood as hate. It has already happened a few times.
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Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity
It is Autism Acceptance Month
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 26 Feb 2021, 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
goldfish21
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Hold on a minute, guys!
I think I see the problem here.
It is that the "Cancel Culture" is insidious, and has infiltrated not only the media, but all facets of the political and religious landscapes, as well.
Being "woke" was originally about understanding the hassles endured by people of other races and cultures, and accepting those people's stated hardships as valid. Than along came the "Cancel Culture", which twists everything it touches into an effort to actively silence anyone who disagrees.
Think about it ... if you step back and examine every identifiable movement, you will eventually see how that culture has mutated from a "Let us self-advocate" culture to a "Let us get everybody else to STFU" culture.
Republicans, Democrats, Catholicism, Judaism ... it seems that every identifiable culture has been infected with the "Cancel Culture" virus.
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At the risk of sound ageist: Thank the lawd bebe jebuz these are the thoughts of old people who are nearer to the end of their lives & will be gone soon along with them.
For some of us that want to err on the side of free expression it is not a matter of hate being ok it is a matter of the lesser of two evils and slippery slope. For many of those that want more censorship and consequence for hate expression it is also a matter of the lesser of two evils and slippery slope. The disagreement is in what is the lesser of two evils and has a better chance of slippery slope occurring. Both sides have plenty of historical and current examples they can point to.
As far as ageism goes the title of this thread is a partial misnomer. While the younger generations are generally more woke the alt right is a heavily younger person phenomenon in that what often separates the alt right from the more traditional right is the use of social media(think Candice Owens, gun girl Kaitlin Bennett)
You think woke people aren't fans of freedom of expression? Clearly you don't know any queer black drag queens! Woke people are A-okay with freedom of expression. Freedom to express hate & bigotry, otoh, is an entirely different story.. yeeeeeah, you can basically shove that where the sun don't shine.
Young alt right extremists exist, yes, but they've typically been radicalized by old ideas from older people. The ideas need to die whether they're in the heads of young or old.
Who defines what constitutes hate and bigotry?
(a) intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury; (b) extreme dislike or disgust : antipathy, loathing; (c) a systematic and especially politically exploited expression of hatred.
It also defines "bigotry" this way:
(a) obstinate or intolerant devotion to one's own opinions and prejudices : the state of mind of a bigot
Does that answer your question, or were you about to present your own subjective definitions?
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