White privilege isn't real - Jordan Peterson

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cyberdad
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19 Feb 2021, 10:42 pm

shlaifu wrote:
Pepe wrote:
I think this destroys your credibility, in regard to being objective, towards Jorden Peterson.


I think Jungian psychology embraces diversity whereas JP overlays/injects his conservative values into his ideas and theories.

I am surprised he doesn't point to discrepancy between the success of Asian Americans, African immigrants and white privilege theory. Certainly the right has been pointing to disgruntled "tiger moms" who's kids have missed out on college admissions as evidence of too much concessions given to non-white non-asian minorities.

Not sure if any JP fans would like to point out if he ever addressed this issue?



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20 Feb 2021, 1:46 am

Fnord wrote:
The people who developed white privilege were white people.

The person who first codified "White Privilege" was a white woman with a Bachelor of Arts degree from Radcliffe (Summa Cum Laude in English), a Master of Arts degree from Harvard, and a Philosopher's Degree from Harvard.  Her occupation is listed as "Research Scientist".

What is YOUR claim to fame?


Arts and Philosopher? How one can become a research scientist with that?

I would rather expect sociologists and economists to do research on a such thing.


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20 Feb 2021, 2:55 am

Brictoria wrote:
Fnord wrote:
dorkseid wrote:
I think white privilege is certainly a real thing, but it's only one of a multitude of complex intersectional factors in society. The issue is much more complicated than popular intersectional feminists want us to think.
White Privilege is an issue of race, while feminism is an issue of biological sex.


Fnord wrote:
Was the thread you started on feminism going nowhere?


My understanding is that making a statement such as that regarding "feminists" or "feminism" demonstrates a high level of Transphobia on behalf of the person making the statement, given it is deliberately and intentionally excluding trans females from the category of "females" - I even believe there is a special term used for transphobes who espouse this belief...

I'm sure some of the more enlightened members here would be happy to re-educate you on the subject of feminism and transphobia.


TERFs?
Quote:
TERF (/ˈtɜːrf/, also written terf) is an acronym for trans-exclusionary radical feminist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERF


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20 Feb 2021, 3:31 am

shlaifu wrote:
Pepe wrote:
I think this destroys your credibility, in regard to being objective, towards Jorden Peterson.

BTW, JP is a theist, which puts me at odds with him, to some degree.


JP is a practitioner of Jungian analytical psychology. That's an esoteric pseudo-science. That should put most scientifically minded people at odds with him.
And he misrepresents most philosophers of the last 150 years he talks about, including the ones he says he has studied for decades.
That puts me at odds with him.


Quote:
Psychology's status as a science is grounded in the use of the scientific method, said Dominello. Psychologists base their professional practice in knowledge that is obtained through verifiable evidence of human behavior and mental processes. Psychological studies are designed very much like studies in other scientific fields. It is through these studies that psychologists contribute to the body of research in their field.

https://www.snhu.edu/about-us/newsroom/ ... -a-science


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Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. "Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions." I didn't say that. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many on the left pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


THERE WILL BE NO COUP IN AMERICA!


Brictoria
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20 Feb 2021, 4:01 am

Pepe wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Fnord wrote:
dorkseid wrote:
I think white privilege is certainly a real thing, but it's only one of a multitude of complex intersectional factors in society. The issue is much more complicated than popular intersectional feminists want us to think.
White Privilege is an issue of race, while feminism is an issue of biological sex.


Fnord wrote:
Was the thread you started on feminism going nowhere?


My understanding is that making a statement such as that regarding "feminists" or "feminism" demonstrates a high level of Transphobia on behalf of the person making the statement, given it is deliberately and intentionally excluding trans females from the category of "females" - I even believe there is a special term used for transphobes who espouse this belief...

I'm sure some of the more enlightened members here would be happy to re-educate you on the subject of feminism and transphobia.


TERFs?
Quote:
TERF (/ˈtɜːrf/, also written terf) is an acronym for trans-exclusionary radical feminist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERF


That's the one.


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20 Feb 2021, 6:28 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The people who developed white privilege were white people.

The person who first codified "White Privilege" was a white woman with a Bachelor of Arts degree from Radcliffe (Summa Cum Laude in English), a Master of Arts degree from Harvard, and a Philosopher's Degree from Harvard. Her occupation is listed as "Research Scientist".

What is YOUR claim to fame?


Arts and Philosopher? How one can become a research scientist with that?

I would rather expect sociologists and economists to do research on a such thing.


I assume Fnord is talking about Peggy McIntosh, and your question is a good one, Boo. She doesn’t sound like any sort of “scientist” to me.

Fnord wrote:
The people who developed white privilege were white people.

The person who first codified "White Privilege" was a white woman with a Bachelor of Arts degree from Radcliffe (Summa Cum Laude in English), a Master of Arts degree from Harvard, and a Philosopher's Degree from Harvard. Her occupation is listed as "Research Scientist".

What is YOUR claim to fame?


Fnord wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Fnord wrote:
What is YOUR claim to fame?
Autistic since birth (probably before that) <--- Beat that! ...
Autistic people are ALL "autistic since (before) birth". I was born in 1957, which means I have been "engaged in hypercritical thinking" for nearly 64 years.

So what could make you a greater authority on white privilege than the person who codified it?


Peggy McIntosh, with her two degrees in English, is not even a "social scientist", let a alone a “scientist” in the way most people understand. Even actual social scientists are not really scientists in the way physicists and chemists are, since social scientists cannot help but be influenced by and want to influence the object that they are studying (ie, society). When Peggy McIntosh codified the term apparently criticizing her own race, she would have been influenced by theories from other social scientists (including non-white ones), and by the way the wind was blowing in the wider society (all the while trying to further her career).

As for your appeals to authority (which I believe Cornflake has alluded to), I would say by way of example – well, Leo Kanner coined the term “autism” and he blamed the condition on lack of maternal warmth. Presumably you would allow us to disagree with his theory of autism even though he was the one who coined the term.

And personally I don’t really care if the person who coined the term “white privilege” was white. There are plenty of people who critique their own groups in a way that I suspect a lot of people in here would not agree with, eg.

“There is no female Mozart because there is no female Jack the Ripper.” Camille Paglia, who is a woman.

“Black folks don’t know how to run no nation”, Pastor James Manning, who is black.

"American Jewry makes any debate on whether the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' are an authentic document or a forgery irrelevant. American Jews do control the world.", Gilad Atzmon, who is Jewish



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20 Feb 2021, 7:16 am

slam_thunderhide wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The people who developed white privilege were white people.

The person who first codified "White Privilege" was a white woman with a Bachelor of Arts degree from Radcliffe (Summa Cum Laude in English), a Master of Arts degree from Harvard, and a Philosopher's Degree from Harvard. Her occupation is listed as "Research Scientist".

What is YOUR claim to fame?


Arts and Philosopher? How one can become a research scientist with that?

I would rather expect sociologists and economists to do research on a such thing.


I assume Fnord is talking about Peggy McIntosh, and your question is a good one, Boo. She doesn’t sound like any sort of “scientist” to me.

As I already pointed out Peggy McIntosh did not "codify" the term "white privilege," she only popularized it. The term was widely used in various civil rights movement circles for at least a decade before then. I remember encountering it in various feminist and lesbian/gay rights periodicals in around 1980.


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20 Feb 2021, 7:25 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
slam_thunderhide wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The people who developed white privilege were white people.

The person who first codified "White Privilege" was a white woman with a Bachelor of Arts degree from Radcliffe (Summa Cum Laude in English), a Master of Arts degree from Harvard, and a Philosopher's Degree from Harvard. Her occupation is listed as "Research Scientist".

What is YOUR claim to fame?


Arts and Philosopher? How one can become a research scientist with that?

I would rather expect sociologists and economists to do research on a such thing.


I assume Fnord is talking about Peggy McIntosh, and your question is a good one, Boo. She doesn’t sound like any sort of “scientist” to me.

As I already pointed out Peggy McIntosh did not "codify" the term "white privilege," she only popularized it. The term was widely used in various civil rights movement circles for at least a decade before then. I remember encountering it in various feminist and lesbian/gay rights periodicals in around 1980.


Take it up with Fnord, then. He is clearly talking about Peggy McIntosh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peggy_McIntosh



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20 Feb 2021, 7:53 am

slam_thunderhide wrote:
Take it up with Fnord, then. He is clearly talking about Peggy McIntosh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peggy_McIntosh

The Wikipedia article is incorrect. Unfortunately I don't have time right now to go to a library and dig up old civil rights periodicals to find earlier instances of the term "white privilege," but I have very clear memories of running into that term in around 1980.

EDIT: I just now found White Privilege: A History of the Concept by Jacob Bennett, documenting various earlier uses of the term "white privilege."

But Bennett still credits Peggy McIntosh with coining the present-day meaning of the term, involving a largely unconscious cultural consensus among white people. It's not my impression that even that is original with her, but I'm not prepared to prove this at the present time.


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20 Feb 2021, 8:32 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
slam_thunderhide wrote:
Take it up with Fnord, then. He is clearly talking about Peggy McIntosh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peggy_McIntosh

The Wikipedia article is incorrect. Unfortunately I don't have time right now to go to a library and dig up old civil rights periodicals to find earlier instances of the term "white privilege," but I have very clear memories of running into that term in around 1980.

EDIT: I just now found White Privilege: A History of the Concept by Jacob Bennett, documenting various earlier uses of the term "white privilege."

But Bennett still credits Peggy McIntosh with coining the present-day meaning of the term, involving a largely unconscious cultural consensus among white people. It's not my impression that even that is original with her, but I'm not prepared to prove this at the present time.


I'm not disputing that the term was in use before Peggy McIntosh used it herself (and neither does the wikpedia entry on Peggy McIntosh as far as I can see). I was just pointing out to you that the person Fnord is quoting as an authority on the subject, the "white woman with a Bachelor of Arts degree from Radcliffe (Summa Cum Laude in English) ... etc", is clearly Peggy McIntosh (as one can see by looking at her biographical information on Wikipedia), and before that I was just pointing out to the forum why appealing to the authority of Peggy McIntosh fails to impress me.

I don't know exactly what Fnord meant by "codify", and I don't know who was the first to use the term "white privilege" (as interesting as that question is), but that's not really what I was focusing on.



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20 Feb 2021, 9:21 am

Pepe wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
Pepe wrote:
I think this destroys your credibility, in regard to being objective, towards Jorden Peterson.

BTW, JP is a theist, which puts me at odds with him, to some degree.


JP is a practitioner of Jungian analytical psychology. That's an esoteric pseudo-science. That should put most scientifically minded people at odds with him.
And he misrepresents most philosophers of the last 150 years he talks about, including the ones he says he has studied for decades.
That puts me at odds with him.


Quote:
Psychology's status as a science is grounded in the use of the scientific method, said Dominello. Psychologists base their professional practice in knowledge that is obtained through verifiable evidence of human behavior and mental processes. Psychological studies are designed very much like studies in other scientific fields. It is through these studies that psychologists contribute to the body of research in their field.

https://www.snhu.edu/about-us/newsroom/ ... -a-science


Yes. That's why the field of scientific psychology plainly dismisses C.G.Jung.
His theories are unfalsifiable and they add up to something akin to a religious belief system.

Jung called it "analytic psychology". Anyone can call anything any name. That doesn't mean it adheres to the same standards.
Scientology called it religion something sciency sounding. That doesn't make it science.


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shlaifu
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20 Feb 2021, 9:25 am

cyberdad wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
Pepe wrote:
I think this destroys your credibility, in regard to being objective, towards Jorden Peterson.


I think Jungian psychology embraces diversity whereas JP overlays/injects his conservative values into his ideas and theories.


Jung's writing is about as open to interpretation as any other religious text.
It's not like you can test anything he says through experiment. Peterson is free to project his conservative values into it, because it doesn't have any fixed meaning.
Oh, yeah, Peterson is pretty postmodern in his method.


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20 Feb 2021, 11:02 am

"Jungian" in other Words

Life isn't Rational

In Fact the

Rationality

Is the

Hallucination

We Create According

To Neuroscience Now

Deal With it

Better

Yet Create it

Make it more

EPiC Than Ever BeFoRE ALL NoW

Verily Yes Perhaps Just As A Hobby

Now No Different Really than A Feral

Cat That/Who Continues to Play

At 20 Years-Old just to Survive

And Thrive Hmm... Wonder What That

Would Look Like For A 60 Year-Old Human

Wanna

See

Rhetorical

Question of Course

'Play Privilege' With

No Rules Written

Before Indeed

'Chaos Magic' Among

Many Other Jungian

Totally Sober Psychedelic Metaphors too hehe

Master of Tides Flow Now With No 'Mind' at All Essence of Free...Play


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20 Feb 2021, 11:29 am

Jordan Peterson isn't real.

Oh wait, he is. Damn.

Some things just won't simply go away no matter how much you wish they would.



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20 Feb 2021, 11:39 am

White people certainly have advantages over minorities when all other factors are equal.

But if we compare a disabled white person to an able non-white person, or a queer white person to a heterosexual non-white person; we'd find that both possess certain privileges the other does not.

And surely no rational person actually believes that a homeless white person has more privileges than a non-white middle class person.

I think what goes wrong in many conversations about privilege is many people don't understand the difference between demographics and individuals.



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20 Feb 2021, 12:21 pm

dorkseid wrote:
Okay then, why don't live that life?

I take the path of least resistance (mostly).

However, I realize such an attitude can be detrimental.

Image


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