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cyberdad
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30 May 2021, 7:10 pm

slam_thunderhide wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Criticising Israel is tricky but I agree with Biden that Israel has the right to retaliate against HAMAS if their civilians are being targeted.

Remember HAMAS took the first step in killing following the Israeli crackdown on Palestinian protest and dissent. I am sure if Cuba decided to launch rockets on Guantanamo bay, Havanna would be a a crater,


It's amazing how cyberdad's left-liberalism vanishes when he's talking about Israel.


I accept the concept of "real-politik" where practical solutions override moral or ideological considerations.

The state of Israel is a reality. If you understand the Palestinian manifesto developed by the grand mufti during WWII when he was an ally of Adolph Hitler was to return all of Israel to Palestine. Subsequently this was always the stance taken by Yasser Arafat's PLO and today by HAMAS.

No world leader advocates Israel be razed to the ground and Israeli citizens be deported. Please name me one who isn't a nutjob?

An amicable/practical solution I would support is where Israel offers Palestinians seperate autonomous states and full protection of Palestinians as citizens in Israel is the ideal situation, But history has demonstrated that Palestinians are driven by ideology and ethno-nationalism so choose to wage conflict with the state of Israel so in that context Israel is entitled to protect their civilians (including women and children) against attacks.



auntblabby
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30 May 2021, 7:15 pm

irresistible force meets immovable object. aka two opposing trains wrecking into one another. i fear the antichrist is the only one with any resolution.



cyberdad
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30 May 2021, 8:08 pm

auntblabby wrote:
irresistible force meets immovable object. aka two opposing trains wrecking into one another. i fear the antichrist is the only one with any resolution.


Yep, this has been going on since David fought the Philistine Goliath some 2500 years ago. People complaining about a decision made in 1948 that can't be retracted should also consider giving back the US to native Americans. It's literally the same principle,



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29 Jun 2021, 6:26 am

Calls for Gwen Berry to be kicked off of the U.S Olympic team after she turned her back on the U.S. flag while the national anthem was playing.


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Fnord
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29 Jun 2021, 8:10 am

cyberdad wrote:
... People complaining about a decision made in 1948 that can't be retracted should also consider giving back the US to native Americans. It's literally the same principle.
I have used this same argument to shut down anti-Zionist rhetoric IRL many times.

"How about giving your property back to the people who had been living on it for thousands of years before you arrived?  How about signing over the deed for your land to the nearest Native America tribe?"

This is usually met with angry silence.  It does not seem to be a popular point of view.


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cyberdad
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29 Jun 2021, 8:44 pm

Fnord wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
... People complaining about a decision made in 1948 that can't be retracted should also consider giving back the US to native Americans. It's literally the same principle.
I have used this same argument to shut down anti-Zionist rhetoric IRL many times.

"How about giving your property back to the people who had been living on it for thousands of years before you arrived?  How about signing over the deed for your land to the nearest Native America tribe?"

This is usually met with angry silence.  It does not seem to be a popular point of view.


In NT language it's called knowing which side your bread is buttered



cyberdad
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29 Jun 2021, 8:46 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Calls for Gwen Berry to be kicked off of the U.S Olympic team after she turned her back on the U.S. flag while the national anthem was playing.


I'm surprised this hasn't become a thread on its own. it certainly sets off the snowflakes in the conservative camp. How fragile does somebody have to lose their temper when Colin Kaerpenick takes a knee or Gwen Berry doesn't "tear up" hearing an anthem :roll:



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29 Jun 2021, 9:04 pm

right wingers just can't understand why everybody else doesn't genuflect to them.



slam_thunderhide
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30 Jun 2021, 11:55 am

cyberdad wrote:
slam_thunderhide wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Criticising Israel is tricky but I agree with Biden that Israel has the right to retaliate against HAMAS if their civilians are being targeted.

Remember HAMAS took the first step in killing following the Israeli crackdown on Palestinian protest and dissent. I am sure if Cuba decided to launch rockets on Guantanamo bay, Havanna would be a a crater,


It's amazing how cyberdad's left-liberalism vanishes when he's talking about Israel.


I accept the concept of "real-politik" where practical solutions override moral or ideological considerations.

The state of Israel is a reality. If you understand the Palestinian manifesto developed by the grand mufti during WWII when he was an ally of Adolph Hitler was to return all of Israel to Palestine. Subsequently this was always the stance taken by Yasser Arafat's PLO and today by HAMAS.

No world leader advocates Israel be razed to the ground and Israeli citizens be deported. Please name me one who isn't a nutjob?

An amicable/practical solution I would support is where Israel offers Palestinians seperate autonomous states and full protection of Palestinians as citizens in Israel is the ideal situation, But history has demonstrated that Palestinians are driven by ideology and ethno-nationalism so choose to wage conflict with the state of Israel so in that context Israel is entitled to protect their civilians (including women and children) against attacks.


Right, it doesn’t matter how many Palestinian civilians Israel kills, somehow we’re supposed to believe that Israel is always “just defending itself”, and the Palestinians are somehow always the aggressors, and anyway we shouldn’t have any sympathy for the Palestinians because some Palestinian Mufti once had talks with Adolf Hitler over 70 years ago.

This sort of stuff is straight out of the Hasbara handbook.



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30 Jun 2021, 11:57 am

cyberdad wrote:
Fnord wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
... People complaining about a decision made in 1948 that can't be retracted should also consider giving back the US to native Americans. It's literally the same principle.
I have used this same argument to shut down anti-Zionist rhetoric IRL many times.

"How about giving your property back to the people who had been living on it for thousands of years before you arrived? How about signing over the deed for your land to the nearest Native America tribe?"

This is usually met with angry silence. It does not seem to be a popular point of view.


In NT language it's called knowing which side your bread is buttered


You have both lost track of what is actually being discussed here. We were not talking about criticism of Israel’s founding of 70+ years ago, but criticism of Israel’s behaviour in the here and now. It’s this behaviour that cyberdad is defending on this thread, as he has done elsewhere on WP.

You can see some examples of Israel’s behaviour during the last ten or so years here. They include:

A starvation blockade against the Palestinians (2011)
Rounding up and interning African refugees
Forcing Ethiopian women to take contraceptives to suppress the Ethiopian birthrate
Demolishing the homes of innocent Palestinians
An elected Israeli official stating his goal is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages
Regularly killing unarmed civilians
Arresting and torturing children
Dropping white phosphorous on Palestinian civilians
Israeli troops shooting a journalist in the face for filming a raid
Becoming the first country to boycott a U.N. Human Rights Council review of its record on human rights

And yet, despite all this, cyberdad claims that criticizing Israel is “tricky”. Is this perhaps because he thinks he’s not in a position to judge what goes on in other countries? No, because despite being an Australian, he’s only too happy to criticize countries like America.

Oh, and “give back your property to the nearest Native American tribe” doesn’t work on me, because I’m a Brit. It would actually be more apt for me to use that line on American white liberals who love posturing at other white Americans, but who don’t make any personal sacrifices in the way of “checking their privilege” themselves.



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30 Jun 2021, 3:23 pm

I guess some people just hate Jews.

:shrug: Am I right?


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30 Jun 2021, 3:39 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
We have been ranting about woke cancel culture a lot here lately, a lot of it from me. They did not invent this. It was the conservatives that wrote the book. All the wokes have done is written the updated edition.

I will be staying away from when it went beyond cancel culture to terrorism such as the KKK who by killing thousands thus canceled the reconstruction and the recent failed attempt to cancel the results of the election.

1934 - Hays code: Very strict “guidelines” for movies that in practice resulted in widespread self censorship to the point of being ridiculous like not showing married characters in the same bed. It also had racist elements such as no depicting interracial kissing or white women as slaves. The code expired in 1968.

World War II:Hollywood became a propaganda arm of the US government with racist characterizations of Japanese fighters commonplace. And yes there were those internment camps.

Early 1950s McCarthyism:Maybe the closest historical parallel to what has been happening recently. A campaign by Senator Joe McCarthy to out supposed communists in Hollywood and the State Department resulting in blacklists, firings and fear.

1966 Beatles Record Burnings:This happened after John Lennon said the Beatles were bigger that Jesus. He did not mean that was good thing. In the Bible Belt they did not take it that way.

1979 Disco Demolition Night:A promotion that turned into a riot. Fans were asked to bring disco records to a baseball game which were blown up. Disco music came out of the LBGTQ and black communities. Many of the records blown up that night were by non disco black artists. This was part of a larger backlash against disco music and culture. The week of the riot 6 of the top 10 singles were disco by September only 1 record of the top 10 was disco. Rock groups that added disco elements to songs received death threats.

1985 Parents Music Resource Center hearings: A successful attempt by Tipper Gore wife of Senator Al Gore and Treasury Secretary James Baker to have companies put warning stickers on records. It was believed Heavy Metal music had coded Satanic messaging. In fairness this was bi partisan, was not trying to cancel rock and a lot of the videos on MTV were exploitive and sexist, but somehow I felt this belonged.

During this time it was common for school districts to ban books that were considered perverted or sympathetic to socialists and communists.

2018 Professor Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor’s commencement speech cancellation:Address canceled following death threats after he criticized President Trump.

2018 President of of Sonoma State University apology:Allowed black student to give a graduation speech criticizing police violence.

2021 Lauren Wolf firing:Reacting to conservative complaints The New York Times fires a reporter for tweeting that she got chills when seeing Joe Biden's plane landing for his inauguration.


There is some truth to this claim but some of these aren't examples of right wing cancel culture.
The Japanese interment camps were an executive order by FDR, darling of the progressives. Tipper Gore also couldn't be called right wing.
As for McCarthyism, they were right about a communist infiltration, but were wrong about tactics and in many ways it was similar to cancel culture of today, with people being doxed and fired.
I also remember the Dixie Chicks being canceled when the criticised Bush and the Iraq War.



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30 Jun 2021, 3:55 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Idaho moves to ban critical race theory instruction in all public schools, including universities
Quote:
As some public school districts move toward embracing critical race theory in their curriculums, others -- like in Idaho -- are doing the opposite.

Idaho lawmakers have advanced a bill that would prohibit public schools, including public universities, from teaching that "any sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin is inherently superior or inferior," which, according to the bill, is often found in "critical race theory."

It also prohibits teachings arguing that "individuals, by virtue of sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin, are inherently responsible for actions committed in the past by other members of the same sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin."

Critical race theory and teachings like it "exacerbate and inflame divisions on the basis of sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, national origin, or other criteria in ways contrary to the unity of the nation and the well-being of the state of Idaho and its citizens," the bill reads. Proponents have argued that students are being indoctrinated.
The bill, HB 377, passed the state House last week and the Senate Monday. It now awaits the governor's signature.

Though the bill references critical race theory specifically, Idaho state Rep. Julianne Young and Sen. Carl Crabtree, both sponsors of the bill, claim the legislation does not prohibit any specific subject.


Forgone conclusion. Remember, this is Idaho--they make Texas look like Massachusetts.


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cyberdad
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30 Jun 2021, 11:44 pm

slam_thunderhide wrote:
And yet, despite all this, cyberdad claims that criticizing Israel is “tricky”. Is this perhaps because he thinks he’s not in a position to judge what goes on in other countries? No, because despite being an Australian, he’s only too happy to criticize countries like America.

Oh, and “give back your property to the nearest Native American tribe” doesn’t work on me, because I’m a Brit. It would actually be more apt for me to use that line on American white liberals who love posturing at other white Americans, but who don’t make any personal sacrifices in the way of “checking their privilege” themselves.


Look I accept that I have some dissonance as I have supported the right of the state of Israel to exist and for Jewish civilians to live in peace. But at the same time I also do not support the IDF treatment of Palestinian civilians and even the treatment of their own minorities (such as the Falasha). This is a dilemma that I won't solve and its up to the parties involved to come to some type of arrangement where all parties benefit.



salad
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01 Jul 2021, 12:22 am

cyberdad wrote:
slam_thunderhide wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Criticising Israel is tricky but I agree with Biden that Israel has the right to retaliate against HAMAS if their civilians are being targeted.

Remember HAMAS took the first step in killing following the Israeli crackdown on Palestinian protest and dissent. I am sure if Cuba decided to launch rockets on Guantanamo bay, Havanna would be a a crater,


It's amazing how cyberdad's left-liberalism vanishes when he's talking about Israel.


I accept the concept of "real-politik" where practical solutions override moral or ideological considerations.

The state of Israel is a reality. If you understand the Palestinian manifesto developed by the grand mufti during WWII when he was an ally of Adolph Hitler was to return all of Israel to Palestine. Subsequently this was always the stance taken by Yasser Arafat's PLO and today by HAMAS.

No world leader advocates Israel be razed to the ground and Israeli citizens be deported. Please name me one who isn't a nutjob?

An amicable/practical solution I would support is where Israel offers Palestinians seperate autonomous states and full protection of Palestinians as citizens in Israel is the ideal situation, But history has demonstrated that Palestinians are driven by ideology and ethno-nationalism so choose to wage conflict with the state of Israel so in that context Israel is entitled to protect their civilians (including women and children) against attacks


I never knew you believed this.

How mistaken you are. Personally I'm not that surprised on your framing of this issue since this has been so inculcated in the discourse of the West many have bought the lie of the innocent Israeli David defending itself from a crazed and truculent Palestinian Goliath


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salad
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01 Jul 2021, 12:38 am

Fnord wrote:
I guess some people just hate Jews.

:shrug: Am I right?


Unless slam_thunderhide edited his post, I dont see any explicit Anti-Jewish sentiment. Was it a different post that you're referring to?


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