Why does the United States not have mandated paid maternity

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AngelRho
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01 May 2021, 9:44 am

magz wrote:
I'm reading a very interesting article tackling the topic of anti-trust laws in the US, how they evolved since being first established and how more recent formulations are currently abused.
Quote:
When Congress passed the Sherman Act in 1890, Senator John Sherman called it "a bill of rights, a charter of liberty," and stressed its importance in political terms. On the floor of the Senate he declared,

If we will not endure a king as a political power, we should not endure a king over the production, transportation, and sale of any of the necessities of life. If we would not submit to an emperor, we should not submit to an autocrat of trade, with power to prevent competition and to fix the price of any commodity.

In other words, what was at stake in keeping markets open - and keeping them free from industrial monarchs - was freedom.
I have a feeling that there is a lot of propaganda of freedom but exactly the risk the lawmakers from 1890 spotted has materialised.

The Sherman Act was a failure of epic proportions and continues to be. You cannot succeed by using government to force companies to compete. If they choose not to compete, they eventually, inevitably WILL cease to exist when the government leaves them to the demise of their own bad decisions. The Sherman Act and the ICA were supposed to force competition and end a government practice of enforcing monopolies (not true monopolies, but more like cartels. Same thing IN EFFECT).

The actual REALITY of the ICA and Sherman ever since breaking up Big Oil and Big Rail is that the government picks and chooses who it thinks are monopolies and throws control to whoever it favors. The reality is that it all depends on which political party is in power and how much fear or envy collectives have for successful businesses. During the Obama administration, as a contrasting example, Solyndra was granted what was in effect a renewable energy monopoly. Nobody called Sherman on THEM. Government contracts tend to do that, and the overall result is that poorly run businesses aren’t allowed to fail when they deserve to and when it would be in the better interest of consumers and the economy for them to fail (see above rant about the auto industry). Big Auto is essentially a cartel, too, but the government has opted to HELP them rather than let them die a natural death. Where’s Sherman? ICA (repealed, but what’s left of it) and Sherman work to keep the dead on life support at the cost of resources better used elsewhere, and the American consumer suffers for it.



goldfish21
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03 May 2021, 10:09 pm

AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
So then it's up to corporations who can afford to have kids or not? :? :roll: Ridiculous thinking not really worth refuting tbh.

More straw man. If you're going to respond to me, respond to what I ACTUALLY said.


Yeah, I did.

I think it's stupid to leave it up to a select handful of highly profitable corporations who Want to offer benefits to their employees, meaning that only those who work for them can easily afford to have children and everyone else has to struggle unnecessarily should they decide to start a family. That's just wrong.

Non sequitur. You’re making the false assumption that “everyone has to struggle.” It’s logically possible that people can start their own business, offer superior benefits, and attract employees, forcing big business to keep up and adapt. No single corporation ever has that much of a grip on your daily life. Amazon, for instance, has more than significantly challenged Walmart, and I remember a time not two decades ago when all I heard was how evil Walmart was. Now the talk is how evil Amazon is. And the day will come when someone else challenges Amazon. And let’s not forget all the DIY’ers, the stay-at-home moms (and dads) who supplement family income with crafts and the rare MLM’s that are actually GOOD. Everyone wins when the Individual with ideas is king—when YOU are the monarch of your own life, when the CEO is the monarch over HIS life, and the consumer is monarch over HIS life.

We ALL have the ability to live like kings. The last 5 years we may have had limited income, but I was creatively free and we had all we needed. It was only when the school and church I worked for restricted my creative freedom and limited my ability to advance in my responsibilities that I chose to leave. That’s what reasonable people do. We realize that ultimately we are all SELF employed and can move around looking for the best deal. My new job alone pays more than last year’s day job for BOTH my wife and I, AND I’ve got a lead on another possible piano gig that would put me up past the level of last year’s church gig. If my wife’s business takes off, that could be a HUGE moneymaker. I’m trying to convince her to make Tiffany lampshades, which, you know, even knockoffs command a pretty high price (It’s actually the lamp bases that are so expensive).

Who’s stopping us? Walmart? Amazon? What about Hobby Lobby since they’re the only stained glass supplier here? No, we had Delphi Glass ship a couple crates of bulk glass. After slaving away for a week grinding down picture frames, we decided we were done and ordered some tools to cut straight lines. We’re watching YouTube videos, connecting with other artists. I’m using a vector graphics app to design new patterns. We have people asking about our website which is as yet non-existent. The only people standing in our way are ourselves.

Same with my music biz. I have to focus on what’s making money right now, which is my school, church, and comping gigs. I have my first wedding at my new location lined up for late June. I need to start a band and line up some more solo gigs, but there’s no rush, no one getting in my way. I have more competition here, yes, but I’m not just any ordinary pianist. I do things differently and insist on a more contemporary, free, and open sound, and I don’t let brides or their mothers control my creative decisions when I play weddings. You hire me because you like what I do and want what I have to offer. If you want stale, old-fashioned, recycled, cookie-cutter trash, there are PLENTY pianists in the area you can hire. But there is only one Rho, and there will always only BE one Rho. I’ve even met some of my competition, and guess what? I know who to call whenever I need a sub for a gig when I can’t make it. I can work things out with competitors and COOPERATE if I ever get spread too thin, and I don’t have to worry about what could happen if someone likes my sub better than me. First of all, they’re not better. Second, even if they were, I have no insecurities and accept that people who hire me can just as easily fire me if they can find a better deal. That’s all part of it and what motivates us to keep our game always on point.

I’m not simply bragging about how great things are for me. I’m saying no one owns us or has that much control over us. Don’t like big corps? Don’t buy from Amazon or Walmart. Or Microsoft or Apple. I prefer an Apple computer, but we have two Raspberry Pi’s running Linux. There has been an entire community of creatives, makers, DIYers customizing and prototyping, and neither Microsoft nor Apple can stop them. If you can’t find attractive work prospects, create your own and control your own schedule. No one offers parental leave? Be the first. Create a business that values and fosters families. Some bigger businesses have begun operating in-house daycares as a perk to keep employees from having to spend half their paycheck on childcare. In fact...the way I got back into teaching was reaching an agreement with the school that my 3yo would be with me in my classroom. No baby, no dice. When my youngest was old enough for school and we could afford pre-k, my high school kids started asking where he was and why he didn’t come to my band class anymore. See? You need a specific perk, you just ask.

You already have the right to do that. Why do you have to have the force of government to get your way? It amounts to, as I see it, jealousy of creative people who become wealthy through creative, productive work. You’re jealous of those who have commanded and earned such a high level of autonomy. You have a desire to bully them, and the government offers a means by which you can hold intelligent people hostage from doing what they love. Why do you need the government for that? All you have to do is give your talent and ability to another company that treats you better and desires you enough to offer perks like parental leave and even in-house childcare. As a consumer, you possess the strength of personal wealth that you can control, affecting which businesses make more profit and which businesses will fail. You can take action simply by buying things or not to bankrupt corporations. You don’t need government for that.

But if you allow or insist that government regulates businesses, you fundamentally take that power away from workers and consumers. The US auto industry has been irreparably damaged because through the actions of unions and government, the big three automakers were declared “too big to fail” and bailed out. There was a grand opportunity for brilliant designers and factory workers to strike out on their own, develop new technologies, and push the envelope in style, luxury, fuel economy, safety, utility, etc., and WE BLEW IT. Don’t get me started on why the hell are we still dependent on the effing internal combustion engine??? We had the opportunity to revolutionize personal transportation, and we lost it to greed. I will never get over my fury over that until we have workable, affordable, flying cars that don’t require fossil fuels. I want a warp engine, damnit, and won’t be happy until I get it. But that’s what these backwards-thinking bastards have us stuck with. Your insistence on pushing an agenda through government force is what’s keeping us from having and doing better.


Explain it to me really slowly like I'm a Canadian with both universal healthcare And maternity/paternity leave for all: How exactly is it better for me to switch to a system that leaves it up to employers whether or not they deem me worthy of healthcare Or the opportunity to take paternity/maternity leave? How is it better for my family, friends, neighbours, and the rest of society around me? Sell me on ditching basics of modern society in favour of whatever scraps some Billionaire or corporate board decide to toss my way.


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RetroGamer87
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04 May 2021, 4:47 am

goldfish21 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
So then it's up to corporations who can afford to have kids or not? :? :roll: Ridiculous thinking not really worth refuting tbh.

More straw man. If you're going to respond to me, respond to what I ACTUALLY said.


Yeah, I did.

I think it's stupid to leave it up to a select handful of highly profitable corporations who Want to offer benefits to their employees, meaning that only those who work for them can easily afford to have children and everyone else has to struggle unnecessarily should they decide to start a family. That's just wrong.

Non sequitur. You’re making the false assumption that “everyone has to struggle.” It’s logically possible that people can start their own business, offer superior benefits, and attract employees, forcing big business to keep up and adapt. No single corporation ever has that much of a grip on your daily life. Amazon, for instance, has more than significantly challenged Walmart, and I remember a time not two decades ago when all I heard was how evil Walmart was. Now the talk is how evil Amazon is. And the day will come when someone else challenges Amazon. And let’s not forget all the DIY’ers, the stay-at-home moms (and dads) who supplement family income with crafts and the rare MLM’s that are actually GOOD. Everyone wins when the Individual with ideas is king—when YOU are the monarch of your own life, when the CEO is the monarch over HIS life, and the consumer is monarch over HIS life.

We ALL have the ability to live like kings. The last 5 years we may have had limited income, but I was creatively free and we had all we needed. It was only when the school and church I worked for restricted my creative freedom and limited my ability to advance in my responsibilities that I chose to leave. That’s what reasonable people do. We realize that ultimately we are all SELF employed and can move around looking for the best deal. My new job alone pays more than last year’s day job for BOTH my wife and I, AND I’ve got a lead on another possible piano gig that would put me up past the level of last year’s church gig. If my wife’s business takes off, that could be a HUGE moneymaker. I’m trying to convince her to make Tiffany lampshades, which, you know, even knockoffs command a pretty high price (It’s actually the lamp bases that are so expensive).

Who’s stopping us? Walmart? Amazon? What about Hobby Lobby since they’re the only stained glass supplier here? No, we had Delphi Glass ship a couple crates of bulk glass. After slaving away for a week grinding down picture frames, we decided we were done and ordered some tools to cut straight lines. We’re watching YouTube videos, connecting with other artists. I’m using a vector graphics app to design new patterns. We have people asking about our website which is as yet non-existent. The only people standing in our way are ourselves.

Same with my music biz. I have to focus on what’s making money right now, which is my school, church, and comping gigs. I have my first wedding at my new location lined up for late June. I need to start a band and line up some more solo gigs, but there’s no rush, no one getting in my way. I have more competition here, yes, but I’m not just any ordinary pianist. I do things differently and insist on a more contemporary, free, and open sound, and I don’t let brides or their mothers control my creative decisions when I play weddings. You hire me because you like what I do and want what I have to offer. If you want stale, old-fashioned, recycled, cookie-cutter trash, there are PLENTY pianists in the area you can hire. But there is only one Rho, and there will always only BE one Rho. I’ve even met some of my competition, and guess what? I know who to call whenever I need a sub for a gig when I can’t make it. I can work things out with competitors and COOPERATE if I ever get spread too thin, and I don’t have to worry about what could happen if someone likes my sub better than me. First of all, they’re not better. Second, even if they were, I have no insecurities and accept that people who hire me can just as easily fire me if they can find a better deal. That’s all part of it and what motivates us to keep our game always on point.

I’m not simply bragging about how great things are for me. I’m saying no one owns us or has that much control over us. Don’t like big corps? Don’t buy from Amazon or Walmart. Or Microsoft or Apple. I prefer an Apple computer, but we have two Raspberry Pi’s running Linux. There has been an entire community of creatives, makers, DIYers customizing and prototyping, and neither Microsoft nor Apple can stop them. If you can’t find attractive work prospects, create your own and control your own schedule. No one offers parental leave? Be the first. Create a business that values and fosters families. Some bigger businesses have begun operating in-house daycares as a perk to keep employees from having to spend half their paycheck on childcare. In fact...the way I got back into teaching was reaching an agreement with the school that my 3yo would be with me in my classroom. No baby, no dice. When my youngest was old enough for school and we could afford pre-k, my high school kids started asking where he was and why he didn’t come to my band class anymore. See? You need a specific perk, you just ask.

You already have the right to do that. Why do you have to have the force of government to get your way? It amounts to, as I see it, jealousy of creative people who become wealthy through creative, productive work. You’re jealous of those who have commanded and earned such a high level of autonomy. You have a desire to bully them, and the government offers a means by which you can hold intelligent people hostage from doing what they love. Why do you need the government for that? All you have to do is give your talent and ability to another company that treats you better and desires you enough to offer perks like parental leave and even in-house childcare. As a consumer, you possess the strength of personal wealth that you can control, affecting which businesses make more profit and which businesses will fail. You can take action simply by buying things or not to bankrupt corporations. You don’t need government for that.

But if you allow or insist that government regulates businesses, you fundamentally take that power away from workers and consumers. The US auto industry has been irreparably damaged because through the actions of unions and government, the big three automakers were declared “too big to fail” and bailed out. There was a grand opportunity for brilliant designers and factory workers to strike out on their own, develop new technologies, and push the envelope in style, luxury, fuel economy, safety, utility, etc., and WE BLEW IT. Don’t get me started on why the hell are we still dependent on the effing internal combustion engine??? We had the opportunity to revolutionize personal transportation, and we lost it to greed. I will never get over my fury over that until we have workable, affordable, flying cars that don’t require fossil fuels. I want a warp engine, damnit, and won’t be happy until I get it. But that’s what these backwards-thinking bastards have us stuck with. Your insistence on pushing an agenda through government force is what’s keeping us from having and doing better.


Explain it to me really slowly like I'm a Canadian with both universal healthcare And maternity/paternity leave for all: How exactly is it better for me to switch to a system that leaves it up to employers whether or not they deem me worthy of healthcare Or the opportunity to take paternity/maternity leave? How is it better for my family, friends, neighbours, and the rest of society around me? Sell me on ditching basics of modern society in favour of whatever scraps some Billionaire or corporate board decide to toss my way.


He means it's better for the employers.

Image


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AngelRho
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04 May 2021, 10:17 am

goldfish21 wrote:
Explain it to me really slowly like I'm a Canadian with both universal healthcare And maternity/paternity leave for all: How exactly is it better for me to switch to a system that leaves it up to employers whether or not they deem me worthy of healthcare Or the opportunity to take paternity/maternity leave? How is it better for my family, friends, neighbours, and the rest of society around me? Sell me on ditching basics of modern society in favour of whatever scraps some Billionaire or corporate board decide to toss my way.

First explain to me how corporations can make a profit without any employees producing goods to sell.

As far as being worthy goes, it is only up to the individual what his own worth is. If a business doesn't pay employees what they're worth, the employee has no obligation to continue to work. If all employees quit working, the company cannot make anything to sell. If it has nothing to sell, it has no profit. Without profit, it cannot exist, at least not in any meaningful way. Your individual worth is YOUR problem, not mine, and not the problem of employers. If you are not worth parental leave and other benefits, then you shouldn't ask. If you ARE worth it, then you have a moral obligation to expect it and nothing less.



goldfish21
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04 May 2021, 10:28 am

AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Explain it to me really slowly like I'm a Canadian with both universal healthcare And maternity/paternity leave for all: How exactly is it better for me to switch to a system that leaves it up to employers whether or not they deem me worthy of healthcare Or the opportunity to take paternity/maternity leave? How is it better for my family, friends, neighbours, and the rest of society around me? Sell me on ditching basics of modern society in favour of whatever scraps some Billionaire or corporate board decide to toss my way.

First explain to me how corporations can make a profit without any employees producing goods to sell.

As far as being worthy goes, it is only up to the individual what his own worth is. If a business doesn't pay employees what they're worth, the employee has no obligation to continue to work. If all employees quit working, the company cannot make anything to sell. If it has nothing to sell, it has no profit. Without profit, it cannot exist, at least not in any meaningful way. Your individual worth is YOUR problem, not mine, and not the problem of employers. If you are not worth parental leave and other benefits, then you shouldn't ask. If you ARE worth it, then you have a moral obligation to expect it and nothing less.


Do you think that the ~70 countries with universal healthcare don't have profitable corporations in them? :?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ealth_care

Or that any of the countries that offer maternity leave don't have profitable corporations? :?

https://www.instantoffices.com/blog/ins ... und-world/

Wtf? :? You can't actually be serious. :lol: You actually believe that if people are treated like human beings by their government & employers that economies will cease to function? :? :lol:

As for the rest of your nonsense: :lol: :lol: :lol: Clearly that's not how the world works or people wouldn't be "trapped," in dead end jobs all over your country and others, barely earning enough for survival with few other options for better compensation and none of these crap employers bestowing basic benefits upon worker bees who deem themselves worthy. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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AngelRho
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04 May 2021, 3:47 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Explain it to me really slowly like I'm a Canadian with both universal healthcare And maternity/paternity leave for all: How exactly is it better for me to switch to a system that leaves it up to employers whether or not they deem me worthy of healthcare Or the opportunity to take paternity/maternity leave? How is it better for my family, friends, neighbours, and the rest of society around me? Sell me on ditching basics of modern society in favour of whatever scraps some Billionaire or corporate board decide to toss my way.

First explain to me how corporations can make a profit without any employees producing goods to sell.

As far as being worthy goes, it is only up to the individual what his own worth is. If a business doesn't pay employees what they're worth, the employee has no obligation to continue to work. If all employees quit working, the company cannot make anything to sell. If it has nothing to sell, it has no profit. Without profit, it cannot exist, at least not in any meaningful way. Your individual worth is YOUR problem, not mine, and not the problem of employers. If you are not worth parental leave and other benefits, then you shouldn't ask. If you ARE worth it, then you have a moral obligation to expect it and nothing less.


Do you think that the ~70 countries with universal healthcare don't have profitable corporations in them? :?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ealth_care

Or that any of the countries that offer maternity leave don't have profitable corporations? :?

https://www.instantoffices.com/blog/ins ... und-world/

Wtf? :? You can't actually be serious. :lol: You actually believe that if people are treated like human beings by their government & employers that economies will cease to function? :? :lol:

As for the rest of your nonsense: :lol: :lol: :lol: Clearly that's not how the world works or people wouldn't be "trapped," in dead end jobs all over your country and others, barely earning enough for survival with few other options for better compensation and none of these crap employers bestowing basic benefits upon worker bees who deem themselves worthy. :lol: :lol: :lol:

People quit their jobs and relocate to more economically advantaged areas. People move up or move out all the time. So your notion that people are trapped is already debunked. As to everything else, you have an extremely poor and unreasonable outlook on humanity. If you number yourself among the rest of humanity, then you by logical necessity have a low value for yourself. Do you believe yourself to be worthless? If you do, or if you believe Canadians as a whole to be worthless, your perspective makes sense. I’m afraid I just don’t hate other people that much.



AngelRho
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04 May 2021, 4:25 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
So then it's up to corporations who can afford to have kids or not? :? :roll: Ridiculous thinking not really worth refuting tbh.

More straw man. If you're going to respond to me, respond to what I ACTUALLY said.


Yeah, I did.

I think it's stupid to leave it up to a select handful of highly profitable corporations who Want to offer benefits to their employees, meaning that only those who work for them can easily afford to have children and everyone else has to struggle unnecessarily should they decide to start a family. That's just wrong.

Non sequitur. You’re making the false assumption that “everyone has to struggle.” It’s logically possible that people can start their own business, offer superior benefits, and attract employees, forcing big business to keep up and adapt. No single corporation ever has that much of a grip on your daily life. Amazon, for instance, has more than significantly challenged Walmart, and I remember a time not two decades ago when all I heard was how evil Walmart was. Now the talk is how evil Amazon is. And the day will come when someone else challenges Amazon. And let’s not forget all the DIY’ers, the stay-at-home moms (and dads) who supplement family income with crafts and the rare MLM’s that are actually GOOD. Everyone wins when the Individual with ideas is king—when YOU are the monarch of your own life, when the CEO is the monarch over HIS life, and the consumer is monarch over HIS life.

We ALL have the ability to live like kings. The last 5 years we may have had limited income, but I was creatively free and we had all we needed. It was only when the school and church I worked for restricted my creative freedom and limited my ability to advance in my responsibilities that I chose to leave. That’s what reasonable people do. We realize that ultimately we are all SELF employed and can move around looking for the best deal. My new job alone pays more than last year’s day job for BOTH my wife and I, AND I’ve got a lead on another possible piano gig that would put me up past the level of last year’s church gig. If my wife’s business takes off, that could be a HUGE moneymaker. I’m trying to convince her to make Tiffany lampshades, which, you know, even knockoffs command a pretty high price (It’s actually the lamp bases that are so expensive).

Who’s stopping us? Walmart? Amazon? What about Hobby Lobby since they’re the only stained glass supplier here? No, we had Delphi Glass ship a couple crates of bulk glass. After slaving away for a week grinding down picture frames, we decided we were done and ordered some tools to cut straight lines. We’re watching YouTube videos, connecting with other artists. I’m using a vector graphics app to design new patterns. We have people asking about our website which is as yet non-existent. The only people standing in our way are ourselves.

Same with my music biz. I have to focus on what’s making money right now, which is my school, church, and comping gigs. I have my first wedding at my new location lined up for late June. I need to start a band and line up some more solo gigs, but there’s no rush, no one getting in my way. I have more competition here, yes, but I’m not just any ordinary pianist. I do things differently and insist on a more contemporary, free, and open sound, and I don’t let brides or their mothers control my creative decisions when I play weddings. You hire me because you like what I do and want what I have to offer. If you want stale, old-fashioned, recycled, cookie-cutter trash, there are PLENTY pianists in the area you can hire. But there is only one Rho, and there will always only BE one Rho. I’ve even met some of my competition, and guess what? I know who to call whenever I need a sub for a gig when I can’t make it. I can work things out with competitors and COOPERATE if I ever get spread too thin, and I don’t have to worry about what could happen if someone likes my sub better than me. First of all, they’re not better. Second, even if they were, I have no insecurities and accept that people who hire me can just as easily fire me if they can find a better deal. That’s all part of it and what motivates us to keep our game always on point.

I’m not simply bragging about how great things are for me. I’m saying no one owns us or has that much control over us. Don’t like big corps? Don’t buy from Amazon or Walmart. Or Microsoft or Apple. I prefer an Apple computer, but we have two Raspberry Pi’s running Linux. There has been an entire community of creatives, makers, DIYers customizing and prototyping, and neither Microsoft nor Apple can stop them. If you can’t find attractive work prospects, create your own and control your own schedule. No one offers parental leave? Be the first. Create a business that values and fosters families. Some bigger businesses have begun operating in-house daycares as a perk to keep employees from having to spend half their paycheck on childcare. In fact...the way I got back into teaching was reaching an agreement with the school that my 3yo would be with me in my classroom. No baby, no dice. When my youngest was old enough for school and we could afford pre-k, my high school kids started asking where he was and why he didn’t come to my band class anymore. See? You need a specific perk, you just ask.

You already have the right to do that. Why do you have to have the force of government to get your way? It amounts to, as I see it, jealousy of creative people who become wealthy through creative, productive work. You’re jealous of those who have commanded and earned such a high level of autonomy. You have a desire to bully them, and the government offers a means by which you can hold intelligent people hostage from doing what they love. Why do you need the government for that? All you have to do is give your talent and ability to another company that treats you better and desires you enough to offer perks like parental leave and even in-house childcare. As a consumer, you possess the strength of personal wealth that you can control, affecting which businesses make more profit and which businesses will fail. You can take action simply by buying things or not to bankrupt corporations. You don’t need government for that.

But if you allow or insist that government regulates businesses, you fundamentally take that power away from workers and consumers. The US auto industry has been irreparably damaged because through the actions of unions and government, the big three automakers were declared “too big to fail” and bailed out. There was a grand opportunity for brilliant designers and factory workers to strike out on their own, develop new technologies, and push the envelope in style, luxury, fuel economy, safety, utility, etc., and WE BLEW IT. Don’t get me started on why the hell are we still dependent on the effing internal combustion engine??? We had the opportunity to revolutionize personal transportation, and we lost it to greed. I will never get over my fury over that until we have workable, affordable, flying cars that don’t require fossil fuels. I want a warp engine, damnit, and won’t be happy until I get it. But that’s what these backwards-thinking bastards have us stuck with. Your insistence on pushing an agenda through government force is what’s keeping us from having and doing better.


Explain it to me really slowly like I'm a Canadian with both universal healthcare And maternity/paternity leave for all: How exactly is it better for me to switch to a system that leaves it up to employers whether or not they deem me worthy of healthcare Or the opportunity to take paternity/maternity leave? How is it better for my family, friends, neighbours, and the rest of society around me? Sell me on ditching basics of modern society in favour of whatever scraps some Billionaire or corporate board decide to toss my way.


He means it's better for the employers.

Image

No, I mean there are ways for everyone to win. Getting your way through force is hardly a deserved victory.

As to the graphic and cheering for billionaires, I think the worth of a human being is higher than what anyone can or should price. I don’t think becoming a billionaire is a reasonable goal for me, and I don’t define my future or present self by how much money I THINK I can make. But I do cheer for billionaires for their achievement, assuming their money came from achievement. I don’t consider cornering a market or governmental maneuvering as anything special. Independent action and standing the test of time are things that impress me. While I think Bill Gates is often misguided, he is a heroic figure in many respects. Elon Musk is another figure I admire. Pfizer and Moderna have many heroic people working for them, and they are also emblematic of successful companies victimized by politics-driven government policies (i.e. they are entirely subject to the ideology of those in governmental power). And even Rockefeller back in the day fell victim to fickle policymaking that arose from public perception that those who have achieved much are somehow evil. The genius of Rockefeller was recognizing both corrupt government policies and the true value of his company, which was worth more AFTER he got Sherman Acted. I don’t want to be anyone except myself. I just like winners. I find them inspiring.



goldfish21
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04 May 2021, 6:19 pm

AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Explain it to me really slowly like I'm a Canadian with both universal healthcare And maternity/paternity leave for all: How exactly is it better for me to switch to a system that leaves it up to employers whether or not they deem me worthy of healthcare Or the opportunity to take paternity/maternity leave? How is it better for my family, friends, neighbours, and the rest of society around me? Sell me on ditching basics of modern society in favour of whatever scraps some Billionaire or corporate board decide to toss my way.

First explain to me how corporations can make a profit without any employees producing goods to sell.

As far as being worthy goes, it is only up to the individual what his own worth is. If a business doesn't pay employees what they're worth, the employee has no obligation to continue to work. If all employees quit working, the company cannot make anything to sell. If it has nothing to sell, it has no profit. Without profit, it cannot exist, at least not in any meaningful way. Your individual worth is YOUR problem, not mine, and not the problem of employers. If you are not worth parental leave and other benefits, then you shouldn't ask. If you ARE worth it, then you have a moral obligation to expect it and nothing less.


Do you think that the ~70 countries with universal healthcare don't have profitable corporations in them? :?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ealth_care

Or that any of the countries that offer maternity leave don't have profitable corporations? :?

https://www.instantoffices.com/blog/ins ... und-world/

Wtf? :? You can't actually be serious. :lol: You actually believe that if people are treated like human beings by their government & employers that economies will cease to function? :? :lol:

As for the rest of your nonsense: :lol: :lol: :lol: Clearly that's not how the world works or people wouldn't be "trapped," in dead end jobs all over your country and others, barely earning enough for survival with few other options for better compensation and none of these crap employers bestowing basic benefits upon worker bees who deem themselves worthy. :lol: :lol: :lol:

People quit their jobs and relocate to more economically advantaged areas. People move up or move out all the time. So your notion that people are trapped is already debunked. As to everything else, you have an extremely poor and unreasonable outlook on humanity. If you number yourself among the rest of humanity, then you by logical necessity have a low value for yourself. Do you believe yourself to be worthless? If you do, or if you believe Canadians as a whole to be worthless, your perspective makes sense. I’m afraid I just don’t hate other people that much.


lol, no, quite the opposite. I value every Canadian enough to believe we all deserve healthcare & basic workplace benefits like maternity/paternity leave, among other services provided by our tax dollars via our government.

Whereas it seems you hate enough Americans to deem that if they're not working for an elite employer, no living wage, healthcare, or benefits for you!

Brutal. I'm sure it's exactly the kind of hate Jesus would have wanted!


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goldfish21
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04 May 2021, 6:23 pm

AngelRho wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
So then it's up to corporations who can afford to have kids or not? :? :roll: Ridiculous thinking not really worth refuting tbh.

More straw man. If you're going to respond to me, respond to what I ACTUALLY said.


Yeah, I did.

I think it's stupid to leave it up to a select handful of highly profitable corporations who Want to offer benefits to their employees, meaning that only those who work for them can easily afford to have children and everyone else has to struggle unnecessarily should they decide to start a family. That's just wrong.

Non sequitur. You’re making the false assumption that “everyone has to struggle.” It’s logically possible that people can start their own business, offer superior benefits, and attract employees, forcing big business to keep up and adapt. No single corporation ever has that much of a grip on your daily life. Amazon, for instance, has more than significantly challenged Walmart, and I remember a time not two decades ago when all I heard was how evil Walmart was. Now the talk is how evil Amazon is. And the day will come when someone else challenges Amazon. And let’s not forget all the DIY’ers, the stay-at-home moms (and dads) who supplement family income with crafts and the rare MLM’s that are actually GOOD. Everyone wins when the Individual with ideas is king—when YOU are the monarch of your own life, when the CEO is the monarch over HIS life, and the consumer is monarch over HIS life.

We ALL have the ability to live like kings. The last 5 years we may have had limited income, but I was creatively free and we had all we needed. It was only when the school and church I worked for restricted my creative freedom and limited my ability to advance in my responsibilities that I chose to leave. That’s what reasonable people do. We realize that ultimately we are all SELF employed and can move around looking for the best deal. My new job alone pays more than last year’s day job for BOTH my wife and I, AND I’ve got a lead on another possible piano gig that would put me up past the level of last year’s church gig. If my wife’s business takes off, that could be a HUGE moneymaker. I’m trying to convince her to make Tiffany lampshades, which, you know, even knockoffs command a pretty high price (It’s actually the lamp bases that are so expensive).

Who’s stopping us? Walmart? Amazon? What about Hobby Lobby since they’re the only stained glass supplier here? No, we had Delphi Glass ship a couple crates of bulk glass. After slaving away for a week grinding down picture frames, we decided we were done and ordered some tools to cut straight lines. We’re watching YouTube videos, connecting with other artists. I’m using a vector graphics app to design new patterns. We have people asking about our website which is as yet non-existent. The only people standing in our way are ourselves.

Same with my music biz. I have to focus on what’s making money right now, which is my school, church, and comping gigs. I have my first wedding at my new location lined up for late June. I need to start a band and line up some more solo gigs, but there’s no rush, no one getting in my way. I have more competition here, yes, but I’m not just any ordinary pianist. I do things differently and insist on a more contemporary, free, and open sound, and I don’t let brides or their mothers control my creative decisions when I play weddings. You hire me because you like what I do and want what I have to offer. If you want stale, old-fashioned, recycled, cookie-cutter trash, there are PLENTY pianists in the area you can hire. But there is only one Rho, and there will always only BE one Rho. I’ve even met some of my competition, and guess what? I know who to call whenever I need a sub for a gig when I can’t make it. I can work things out with competitors and COOPERATE if I ever get spread too thin, and I don’t have to worry about what could happen if someone likes my sub better than me. First of all, they’re not better. Second, even if they were, I have no insecurities and accept that people who hire me can just as easily fire me if they can find a better deal. That’s all part of it and what motivates us to keep our game always on point.

I’m not simply bragging about how great things are for me. I’m saying no one owns us or has that much control over us. Don’t like big corps? Don’t buy from Amazon or Walmart. Or Microsoft or Apple. I prefer an Apple computer, but we have two Raspberry Pi’s running Linux. There has been an entire community of creatives, makers, DIYers customizing and prototyping, and neither Microsoft nor Apple can stop them. If you can’t find attractive work prospects, create your own and control your own schedule. No one offers parental leave? Be the first. Create a business that values and fosters families. Some bigger businesses have begun operating in-house daycares as a perk to keep employees from having to spend half their paycheck on childcare. In fact...the way I got back into teaching was reaching an agreement with the school that my 3yo would be with me in my classroom. No baby, no dice. When my youngest was old enough for school and we could afford pre-k, my high school kids started asking where he was and why he didn’t come to my band class anymore. See? You need a specific perk, you just ask.

You already have the right to do that. Why do you have to have the force of government to get your way? It amounts to, as I see it, jealousy of creative people who become wealthy through creative, productive work. You’re jealous of those who have commanded and earned such a high level of autonomy. You have a desire to bully them, and the government offers a means by which you can hold intelligent people hostage from doing what they love. Why do you need the government for that? All you have to do is give your talent and ability to another company that treats you better and desires you enough to offer perks like parental leave and even in-house childcare. As a consumer, you possess the strength of personal wealth that you can control, affecting which businesses make more profit and which businesses will fail. You can take action simply by buying things or not to bankrupt corporations. You don’t need government for that.

But if you allow or insist that government regulates businesses, you fundamentally take that power away from workers and consumers. The US auto industry has been irreparably damaged because through the actions of unions and government, the big three automakers were declared “too big to fail” and bailed out. There was a grand opportunity for brilliant designers and factory workers to strike out on their own, develop new technologies, and push the envelope in style, luxury, fuel economy, safety, utility, etc., and WE BLEW IT. Don’t get me started on why the hell are we still dependent on the effing internal combustion engine??? We had the opportunity to revolutionize personal transportation, and we lost it to greed. I will never get over my fury over that until we have workable, affordable, flying cars that don’t require fossil fuels. I want a warp engine, damnit, and won’t be happy until I get it. But that’s what these backwards-thinking bastards have us stuck with. Your insistence on pushing an agenda through government force is what’s keeping us from having and doing better.


Explain it to me really slowly like I'm a Canadian with both universal healthcare And maternity/paternity leave for all: How exactly is it better for me to switch to a system that leaves it up to employers whether or not they deem me worthy of healthcare Or the opportunity to take paternity/maternity leave? How is it better for my family, friends, neighbours, and the rest of society around me? Sell me on ditching basics of modern society in favour of whatever scraps some Billionaire or corporate board decide to toss my way.


He means it's better for the employers.

Image

No, I mean there are ways for everyone to win. Getting your way through force is hardly a deserved victory.

As to the graphic and cheering for billionaires, I think the worth of a human being is higher than what anyone can or should price. I don’t think becoming a billionaire is a reasonable goal for me, and I don’t define my future or present self by how much money I THINK I can make. But I do cheer for billionaires for their achievement, assuming their money came from achievement. I don’t consider cornering a market or governmental maneuvering as anything special. Independent action and standing the test of time are things that impress me. While I think Bill Gates is often misguided, he is a heroic figure in many respects. Elon Musk is another figure I admire. Pfizer and Moderna have many heroic people working for them, and they are also emblematic of successful companies victimized by politics-driven government policies (i.e. they are entirely subject to the ideology of those in governmental power). And even Rockefeller back in the day fell victim to fickle policymaking that arose from public perception that those who have achieved much are somehow evil. The genius of Rockefeller was recognizing both corrupt government policies and the true value of his company, which was worth more AFTER he got Sherman Acted. I don’t want to be anyone except myself. I just like winners. I find them inspiring.


Praise be to the golden Billionaire idols! :lol:

Maybe someday I can afford to go to a doctor. But for now, Great Going, Billionaire guys!! 8)


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roronoa79
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04 May 2021, 7:59 pm

AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Explain it to me really slowly like I'm a Canadian with both universal healthcare And maternity/paternity leave for all: How exactly is it better for me to switch to a system that leaves it up to employers whether or not they deem me worthy of healthcare Or the opportunity to take paternity/maternity leave? How is it better for my family, friends, neighbours, and the rest of society around me? Sell me on ditching basics of modern society in favour of whatever scraps some Billionaire or corporate board decide to toss my way.

First explain to me how corporations can make a profit without any employees producing goods to sell.

As far as being worthy goes, it is only up to the individual what his own worth is. If a business doesn't pay employees what they're worth, the employee has no obligation to continue to work. If all employees quit working, the company cannot make anything to sell. If it has nothing to sell, it has no profit. Without profit, it cannot exist, at least not in any meaningful way. Your individual worth is YOUR problem, not mine, and not the problem of employers. If you are not worth parental leave and other benefits, then you shouldn't ask. If you ARE worth it, then you have a moral obligation to expect it and nothing less.


Do you think that the ~70 countries with universal healthcare don't have profitable corporations in them? :?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ealth_care

Or that any of the countries that offer maternity leave don't have profitable corporations? :?

https://www.instantoffices.com/blog/ins ... und-world/

Wtf? :? You can't actually be serious. :lol: You actually believe that if people are treated like human beings by their government & employers that economies will cease to function? :? :lol:

As for the rest of your nonsense: :lol: :lol: :lol: Clearly that's not how the world works or people wouldn't be "trapped," in dead end jobs all over your country and others, barely earning enough for survival with few other options for better compensation and none of these crap employers bestowing basic benefits upon worker bees who deem themselves worthy. :lol: :lol: :lol:

People quit their jobs and relocate to more economically advantaged areas. People move up or move out all the time. So your notion that people are trapped is already debunked. As to everything else, you have an extremely poor and unreasonable outlook on humanity. If you number yourself among the rest of humanity, then you by logical necessity have a low value for yourself. Do you believe yourself to be worthless? If you do, or if you believe Canadians as a whole to be worthless, your perspective makes sense. I’m afraid I just don’t hate other people that much.

Can't believe I have to say this but moving somewhere else costs a lot of money--money you are less likely to have if your motivation for wanting to move is economic. The vast majority of us can't afford to just pick up and move when we decide we aren't being paid enough. There is also going to be a higher demand for housing in areas with more desirable jobs, which would make affording a home in such a place more expensive than a home where you already live. None of this even takes into account the very real possibility that you won't be able to find a job once there. People also, you know, tend to not want to abandon their communities for personal economic gain if they can help it. They do not want to be away from their family and friends and support network. Yet many are forced to out of capitalist-imposed necessity.

Countries with universal healthcare tend to be more prosperous than those without. Dozens of countries with robust economies have had these social safety nets in place for decades. I have never seen an advocate for purely privatized healthcare ever explain this away.

Goldfish, let me translate from Americapitalistese to Canadian for you:
"The wealthy know what is best for us! Society's problems only arise when the peasants use their numbers to bully the nobles into spending the money they made off the peasants to improve their lives. As long as the wealthy are moral, honest, and logical, everything will work out perfectly for everyone. And everyone knows that being those things is what the wealthy do best!"


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Δυνατὰ δὲ οἱ προύχοντες πράσσουσι καὶ οἱ ἀσθενεῖς ξυγχωροῦσιν
Those with power do what their power permits, while the weak have no choice but to accept it.

- Thucydides


goldfish21
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05 May 2021, 1:13 am

roronoa79 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Explain it to me really slowly like I'm a Canadian with both universal healthcare And maternity/paternity leave for all: How exactly is it better for me to switch to a system that leaves it up to employers whether or not they deem me worthy of healthcare Or the opportunity to take paternity/maternity leave? How is it better for my family, friends, neighbours, and the rest of society around me? Sell me on ditching basics of modern society in favour of whatever scraps some Billionaire or corporate board decide to toss my way.

First explain to me how corporations can make a profit without any employees producing goods to sell.

As far as being worthy goes, it is only up to the individual what his own worth is. If a business doesn't pay employees what they're worth, the employee has no obligation to continue to work. If all employees quit working, the company cannot make anything to sell. If it has nothing to sell, it has no profit. Without profit, it cannot exist, at least not in any meaningful way. Your individual worth is YOUR problem, not mine, and not the problem of employers. If you are not worth parental leave and other benefits, then you shouldn't ask. If you ARE worth it, then you have a moral obligation to expect it and nothing less.


Do you think that the ~70 countries with universal healthcare don't have profitable corporations in them? :?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ealth_care

Or that any of the countries that offer maternity leave don't have profitable corporations? :?

https://www.instantoffices.com/blog/ins ... und-world/

Wtf? :? You can't actually be serious. :lol: You actually believe that if people are treated like human beings by their government & employers that economies will cease to function? :? :lol:

As for the rest of your nonsense: :lol: :lol: :lol: Clearly that's not how the world works or people wouldn't be "trapped," in dead end jobs all over your country and others, barely earning enough for survival with few other options for better compensation and none of these crap employers bestowing basic benefits upon worker bees who deem themselves worthy. :lol: :lol: :lol:

People quit their jobs and relocate to more economically advantaged areas. People move up or move out all the time. So your notion that people are trapped is already debunked. As to everything else, you have an extremely poor and unreasonable outlook on humanity. If you number yourself among the rest of humanity, then you by logical necessity have a low value for yourself. Do you believe yourself to be worthless? If you do, or if you believe Canadians as a whole to be worthless, your perspective makes sense. I’m afraid I just don’t hate other people that much.

Can't believe I have to say this but moving somewhere else costs a lot of money--money you are less likely to have if your motivation for wanting to move is economic. The vast majority of us can't afford to just pick up and move when we decide we aren't being paid enough. There is also going to be a higher demand for housing in areas with more desirable jobs, which would make affording a home in such a place more expensive than a home where you already live. None of this even takes into account the very real possibility that you won't be able to find a job once there. People also, you know, tend to not want to abandon their communities for personal economic gain if they can help it. They do not want to be away from their family and friends and support network. Yet many are forced to out of capitalist-imposed necessity.

Countries with universal healthcare tend to be more prosperous than those without. Dozens of countries with robust economies have had these social safety nets in place for decades. I have never seen an advocate for purely privatized healthcare ever explain this away.

Goldfish, let me translate from Americapitalistese to Canadian for you:
"The wealthy know what is best for us! Society's problems only arise when the peasants use their numbers to bully the nobles into spending the money they made off the peasants to improve their lives. As long as the wealthy are moral, honest, and logical, everything will work out perfectly for everyone. And everyone knows that being those things is what the wealthy do best!"



:heart: :heart: :heart: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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XFilesGeek
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05 May 2021, 2:25 am

goldfish21 wrote:
roronoa79 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Explain it to me really slowly like I'm a Canadian with both universal healthcare And maternity/paternity leave for all: How exactly is it better for me to switch to a system that leaves it up to employers whether or not they deem me worthy of healthcare Or the opportunity to take paternity/maternity leave? How is it better for my family, friends, neighbours, and the rest of society around me? Sell me on ditching basics of modern society in favour of whatever scraps some Billionaire or corporate board decide to toss my way.

First explain to me how corporations can make a profit without any employees producing goods to sell.

As far as being worthy goes, it is only up to the individual what his own worth is. If a business doesn't pay employees what they're worth, the employee has no obligation to continue to work. If all employees quit working, the company cannot make anything to sell. If it has nothing to sell, it has no profit. Without profit, it cannot exist, at least not in any meaningful way. Your individual worth is YOUR problem, not mine, and not the problem of employers. If you are not worth parental leave and other benefits, then you shouldn't ask. If you ARE worth it, then you have a moral obligation to expect it and nothing less.


Do you think that the ~70 countries with universal healthcare don't have profitable corporations in them? :?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ealth_care

Or that any of the countries that offer maternity leave don't have profitable corporations? :?

https://www.instantoffices.com/blog/ins ... und-world/

Wtf? :? You can't actually be serious. :lol: You actually believe that if people are treated like human beings by their government & employers that economies will cease to function? :? :lol:

As for the rest of your nonsense: :lol: :lol: :lol: Clearly that's not how the world works or people wouldn't be "trapped," in dead end jobs all over your country and others, barely earning enough for survival with few other options for better compensation and none of these crap employers bestowing basic benefits upon worker bees who deem themselves worthy. :lol: :lol: :lol:

People quit their jobs and relocate to more economically advantaged areas. People move up or move out all the time. So your notion that people are trapped is already debunked. As to everything else, you have an extremely poor and unreasonable outlook on humanity. If you number yourself among the rest of humanity, then you by logical necessity have a low value for yourself. Do you believe yourself to be worthless? If you do, or if you believe Canadians as a whole to be worthless, your perspective makes sense. I’m afraid I just don’t hate other people that much.

Can't believe I have to say this but moving somewhere else costs a lot of money--money you are less likely to have if your motivation for wanting to move is economic. The vast majority of us can't afford to just pick up and move when we decide we aren't being paid enough. There is also going to be a higher demand for housing in areas with more desirable jobs, which would make affording a home in such a place more expensive than a home where you already live. None of this even takes into account the very real possibility that you won't be able to find a job once there. People also, you know, tend to not want to abandon their communities for personal economic gain if they can help it. They do not want to be away from their family and friends and support network. Yet many are forced to out of capitalist-imposed necessity.

Countries with universal healthcare tend to be more prosperous than those without. Dozens of countries with robust economies have had these social safety nets in place for decades. I have never seen an advocate for purely privatized healthcare ever explain this away.

Goldfish, let me translate from Americapitalistese to Canadian for you:
"The wealthy know what is best for us! Society's problems only arise when the peasants use their numbers to bully the nobles into spending the money they made off the peasants to improve their lives. As long as the wealthy are moral, honest, and logical, everything will work out perfectly for everyone. And everyone knows that being those things is what the wealthy do best!"



:heart: :heart: :heart: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Also, see the Just World Fallacy. As this thread demonstrates, many Americans are absolutely in love with it.

:oops:


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05 May 2021, 12:49 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
roronoa79 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Explain it to me really slowly like I'm a Canadian with both universal healthcare And maternity/paternity leave for all: How exactly is it better for me to switch to a system that leaves it up to employers whether or not they deem me worthy of healthcare Or the opportunity to take paternity/maternity leave? How is it better for my family, friends, neighbours, and the rest of society around me? Sell me on ditching basics of modern society in favour of whatever scraps some Billionaire or corporate board decide to toss my way.

First explain to me how corporations can make a profit without any employees producing goods to sell.

As far as being worthy goes, it is only up to the individual what his own worth is. If a business doesn't pay employees what they're worth, the employee has no obligation to continue to work. If all employees quit working, the company cannot make anything to sell. If it has nothing to sell, it has no profit. Without profit, it cannot exist, at least not in any meaningful way. Your individual worth is YOUR problem, not mine, and not the problem of employers. If you are not worth parental leave and other benefits, then you shouldn't ask. If you ARE worth it, then you have a moral obligation to expect it and nothing less.


Do you think that the ~70 countries with universal healthcare don't have profitable corporations in them? :?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ealth_care

Or that any of the countries that offer maternity leave don't have profitable corporations? :?

https://www.instantoffices.com/blog/ins ... und-world/

Wtf? :? You can't actually be serious. :lol: You actually believe that if people are treated like human beings by their government & employers that economies will cease to function? :? :lol:

As for the rest of your nonsense: :lol: :lol: :lol: Clearly that's not how the world works or people wouldn't be "trapped," in dead end jobs all over your country and others, barely earning enough for survival with few other options for better compensation and none of these crap employers bestowing basic benefits upon worker bees who deem themselves worthy. :lol: :lol: :lol:

People quit their jobs and relocate to more economically advantaged areas. People move up or move out all the time. So your notion that people are trapped is already debunked. As to everything else, you have an extremely poor and unreasonable outlook on humanity. If you number yourself among the rest of humanity, then you by logical necessity have a low value for yourself. Do you believe yourself to be worthless? If you do, or if you believe Canadians as a whole to be worthless, your perspective makes sense. I’m afraid I just don’t hate other people that much.

Can't believe I have to say this but moving somewhere else costs a lot of money--money you are less likely to have if your motivation for wanting to move is economic. The vast majority of us can't afford to just pick up and move when we decide we aren't being paid enough. There is also going to be a higher demand for housing in areas with more desirable jobs, which would make affording a home in such a place more expensive than a home where you already live. None of this even takes into account the very real possibility that you won't be able to find a job once there. People also, you know, tend to not want to abandon their communities for personal economic gain if they can help it. They do not want to be away from their family and friends and support network. Yet many are forced to out of capitalist-imposed necessity.

Countries with universal healthcare tend to be more prosperous than those without. Dozens of countries with robust economies have had these social safety nets in place for decades. I have never seen an advocate for purely privatized healthcare ever explain this away.

Goldfish, let me translate from Americapitalistese to Canadian for you:
"The wealthy know what is best for us! Society's problems only arise when the peasants use their numbers to bully the nobles into spending the money they made off the peasants to improve their lives. As long as the wealthy are moral, honest, and logical, everything will work out perfectly for everyone. And everyone knows that being those things is what the wealthy do best!"



:heart: :heart: :heart: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Also, see the Just World Fallacy. As this thread demonstrates, many Americans are absolutely in love with it.

:oops:

Is it a fallacy or is it a hypothesis? Karma is a thing, as is schadenfreude.



roronoa79
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05 May 2021, 4:24 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Also, see the Just World Fallacy. As this thread demonstrates, many Americans are absolutely in love with it.

:oops:

A certain brand of American will insist that life is unfair but that the market is fair--as if the market is a purely mechanical, logical entity that functions independently from the unjust world around it. Whereas a socialist might use the fact that the world is unfair to suggest that changes should be made to make it more fair, a certain brand of American will use that fact to encourage resignation to life being unfair and advocate that we place our faith in those who benefit from life being unfair.


_________________
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I guess I just wasn't made for these times.
- Brian Wilson

Δυνατὰ δὲ οἱ προύχοντες πράσσουσι καὶ οἱ ἀσθενεῖς ξυγχωροῦσιν
Those with power do what their power permits, while the weak have no choice but to accept it.

- Thucydides


AngelRho
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05 May 2021, 7:24 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Also, see the Just World Fallacy. As this thread demonstrates, many Americans are absolutely in love with it.

:oops:

A certain brand of American will insist that life is unfair but that the market is fair--as if the market is a purely mechanical, logical entity that functions independently from the unjust world around it. Whereas a socialist might use the fact that the world is unfair to suggest that changes should be made to make it more fair, a certain brand of American will use that fact to encourage resignation to life being unfair and advocate that we place our faith in those who benefit from life being unfair.

People tend to view life as they expect it to be. The reality is life is neither fair nor unfair, but optimists will tend to expect the best from it. We know we don’t always get our way, but we prefer to only expect the best. When we don’t get what we expect, we try to figure out how to bring life back within what we expect. Pessimists only expect the worst, and reality is that getting only the worst out of life takes less effort.



AngelRho
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05 May 2021, 8:47 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Explain it to me really slowly like I'm a Canadian with both universal healthcare And maternity/paternity leave for all: How exactly is it better for me to switch to a system that leaves it up to employers whether or not they deem me worthy of healthcare Or the opportunity to take paternity/maternity leave? How is it better for my family, friends, neighbours, and the rest of society around me? Sell me on ditching basics of modern society in favour of whatever scraps some Billionaire or corporate board decide to toss my way.

First explain to me how corporations can make a profit without any employees producing goods to sell.

As far as being worthy goes, it is only up to the individual what his own worth is. If a business doesn't pay employees what they're worth, the employee has no obligation to continue to work. If all employees quit working, the company cannot make anything to sell. If it has nothing to sell, it has no profit. Without profit, it cannot exist, at least not in any meaningful way. Your individual worth is YOUR problem, not mine, and not the problem of employers. If you are not worth parental leave and other benefits, then you shouldn't ask. If you ARE worth it, then you have a moral obligation to expect it and nothing less.


Do you think that the ~70 countries with universal healthcare don't have profitable corporations in them? :?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ealth_care

Or that any of the countries that offer maternity leave don't have profitable corporations? :?

https://www.instantoffices.com/blog/ins ... und-world/

Wtf? :? You can't actually be serious. :lol: You actually believe that if people are treated like human beings by their government & employers that economies will cease to function? :? :lol:

As for the rest of your nonsense: :lol: :lol: :lol: Clearly that's not how the world works or people wouldn't be "trapped," in dead end jobs all over your country and others, barely earning enough for survival with few other options for better compensation and none of these crap employers bestowing basic benefits upon worker bees who deem themselves worthy. :lol: :lol: :lol:

People quit their jobs and relocate to more economically advantaged areas. People move up or move out all the time. So your notion that people are trapped is already debunked. As to everything else, you have an extremely poor and unreasonable outlook on humanity. If you number yourself among the rest of humanity, then you by logical necessity have a low value for yourself. Do you believe yourself to be worthless? If you do, or if you believe Canadians as a whole to be worthless, your perspective makes sense. I’m afraid I just don’t hate other people that much.

Can't believe I have to say this but moving somewhere else costs a lot of money--money you are less likely to have if your motivation for wanting to move is economic. The vast majority of us can't afford to just pick up and move when we decide we aren't being paid enough.

Aw, boo hoo. Cry me a river. We got caught between the rock of not being able to afford to move and the hard place of not being able to afford to stay. When you realize that the mental and emotional toll of feeling trapped is not worth staying, you’ll leave and not consider the cost. We went from having JUST ENOUGH every month and already having our bills paid up to coming up short after having to pay for U-Haul. We had to sacrifice and cut every corner we could to scrounge up enough for loan fees and a real estate agent. Oh...and back in August my wife was 9 months pregnant while we were in the process of moving. We bought a house, moved, I started a new job, and she had a baby all in less than a month. That whole feeling trapped thing is entirely an illusion, it’s all in your head. You want out of a situation? Just leave.

Look, I get how scary it can seem. I get that there’s safety in having a plan. Once the pandemic hit, I immediately started getting job applications out and only got two interviews. We had no idea how we were going to pay for moving expenses even if I did get a job offer. But we had to choose between being miserable stuck where we were or stressed out figuring out how to stretch the little we had for a year. Struggling to make ends meet with now FOUR children won out because at least we had a chance there of having better than what we had. But when you decide you deserve better, that you will have better, and every mental and physical effort is directed towards getting better, the planning and money resources will take care of themselves. Not LITERALLY take care of themselves, I just mean that you’ll do what it takes once you’re committed to it. What you basically said is that fear, and mostly fear of success, is the driving force behind keeping people financially stuck. Conquer the fear and everything else will pretty much follow.