Why did Christianity spawn the most evil people in history

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cyberdad
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01 May 2021, 5:17 pm

salad wrote:
For all of Genghis Khan's atrocities he at least allowed other religions to flourish and practiced a form of religious tolerance


While I don't dispute some of what you are saying, you do need to keep some perspective. While Europeans certainly vanquished all opposing religions within their nation-states, this was not the case in their empires in Africa and Asia. The Portuguese and Spanish were somewhat tyrannical in this regard and did commit cultural genocide after enslaving the middle and south American tribes that lived there. However, indigenous people still maintain their pre-christian beliefs.

This is certainly not the case with islam where the ability to practice other faiths is almost impossible (despite assurances). I don't need to list the litany of acts committed against religious minorities in muslim countries. Islam is also supposed to be the religion of peace.



Redd_Kross
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01 May 2021, 5:25 pm

salad wrote:
I never ever said Atheism is Immoral

I said atheism is Amoral

There's a big difference.

Pretty sure you've just edited that.

Whatever, it's still fundamentally incorrect.



salad
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01 May 2021, 5:28 pm

cyberdad wrote:
salad wrote:
For all of Genghis Khan's atrocities he at least allowed other religions to flourish and practiced a form of religious tolerance


While I don't dispute some of what you are saying, you do need to keep some perspective. While Europeans certainly vanquished all opposing religions within their nation-states, this was not the case in their empires in Africa and Asia. The Portuguese and Spanish were somewhat tyrannical in this regard and did commit cultural genocide after enslaving the middle and south American tribes that lived there. However, indigenous people still maintain their pre-christian beliefs.

This is certainly not the case with islam where the ability to practice other faiths is almost impossible (despite assurances). I don't need to list the litany of acts committed against religious minorities in muslim countries. Islam is also supposed to be the religion of peace.


Hmmm, yeah no. The Christians most definitely forcefully converted their subjects to Christianity, heck almost 30% of the slaves who came to the Americas were Muslim yet they were all forced to abandon their mother tongues, adopt Christian names and were tortured to death if they were caught praying to Allah.

Islam definitely is the more violent religion than Christianity, and no it isn't a religion of peace, however historically non-Muslims actually did live in relative peace in Muslim lands for thousands of years barring several noteworthy exceptions. Just about every primary source, secondary source, tertiary source and history textbook ive ever read on the Muslim empires corroborates that fact, and there's plenty of evidence to prove it. Now granted non-Muslims were secondary citizens, had way less rights, and some more barbaric emperors and sultans did forcefully convert non-Muslims to Islam such as Emperor Aurengzeb in India converting the Hindus and Sikhs to Islam, but I can proudly say that historically Muslims had a relatively decent track record of tolerating religious minorities compared to Christians.

Now obviously a caveat is needed. Islam's treatment of religious minorities still paled in comparison to the Mongols and Persians who were far more tolerant, but it wasn't genocidal. It was patronizing and some more zealous emperors did enact violence, but it was never ever to a point where religious minorities were completely expunged permanently. The fact that after the Inquisition the leader of the European Jews sent a letter to his Jewish compatriots telling them to migrate en masse towards Muslim lands like Morocco and the Ottoman Empire proves my point


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Last edited by salad on 01 May 2021, 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

enz
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01 May 2021, 5:30 pm

Redd_Kross wrote:
salad wrote:
I never ever said Atheism is Immoral

I said atheism is Amoral

There's a big difference.

Pretty sure you've just edited that.

Whatever, it's still fundamentally incorrect.


I disagree. Religion has rules you must follow. Atheism is not believing in god



salad
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01 May 2021, 5:31 pm

Redd_Kross wrote:
salad wrote:
I never ever said Atheism is Immoral

I said atheism is Amoral

There's a big difference.

Pretty sure you've just edited that.

Whatever, it's still fundamentally incorrect.


I edited nothing, you just misread my post.

Atheists themselves admit that atheism is amoral. How can a rejection of a positive belief system confer any morality? And by positive I dont mean good, but I mean something that offers and promotes, the opposite of a negative which negates. Atheism is the rejection of religion, which is the only medium of objective morality. Atheism can't be used for objective morality, hence why almost all leading atheist thinkers lean towards moral relativism knowing that they dont have a belief system in place to act as an anchor for objective morality.


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Redd_Kross
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01 May 2021, 5:38 pm

salad wrote:
Atheists themselves admit that atheism is amoral. How can a rejection of a positive belief system confer any morality? And by positive I dont mean good, but I mean something that offers and promotes, the opposite of a negative which negates. Atheism is the rejection of religion, which is the only medium of objective morality. Atheism can't be used for objective morality, hence why almost all leading atheist thinkers lean towards moral relativism knowing that they dont have a belief system in place to act as an anchor for objective morality.

Amoral means having no moral code.

Why do I need to be religious to have a moral code? The two are not hardwired together.

I'm interested in your assertion that "Atheists themselves admit that atheism is amoral".

First of all, sources please.

Secondly, do you think that particular view is representative of the thoughts of ALL atheists? Or have you just cherry-picked something specific to make a generalisation?

I could play that game. Apparently, as you are religious, Pope Francis represents every opinion you have. Doesn't matter if you're actually a Catholic or not, you're religious and so is he, so it MUST be true.



cyberdad
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01 May 2021, 5:50 pm

salad wrote:
[but I can proudly say that historically Muslims had a relatively decent track record of tolerating religious minorities compared to Christians


You don't have to post a response but think objectively if you really believe this is true. I actually don't think there's much difference between the proselytisation of subject peoples invaded by muslims or christians. To claim pride in the behaviour of Arab and Turkish empires is a little strange given they were no better than the European empires that were to come after them.

You are blaming christianity but the proof of the pudding is that as a religion christianity is in decline throughout the western world. It's adherents never practiced it properly and used the bible as a tool for social control. Islam is no different but the difference today is that nation states adopt islam in their political framework making it intolerable for minorities to exist in their borders. That's nothing to be proud of.



kraftiekortie
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01 May 2021, 6:01 pm

There is evil in every religion.

There are good Christians, bad Christians, good Muslims, bad Muslims, good Jews, bad Jews.

The original Christians eschewed violence.

It’s incorrect to single out Christianity as the ultimate “evil” religion.



cyberdad
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01 May 2021, 6:06 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
There is evil in every religion.

There are good Christians, bad Christians, good Muslims, bad Muslims, good Jews, bad Jews.

The original Christians eschewed violence.

It’s incorrect to single out Christianity as the ultimate “evil” religion.


I think salad is internalising pervasive values in the society he lives in.



enz
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01 May 2021, 6:08 pm

Isn’t it more moral to do something not because you will be rewarded or punished but because it’s the right thing to do?



aghogday
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01 May 2021, 6:22 pm



"Amoral:
Lacking a moral sense;
Unconcerned with the rightness or wrongness of something."

Obviously Atheists Are Not Amoral; Otherwise,
They Wouldn't Point Out All the Evils Spawned
By The Politics of Religion; It's Worth Noting

That Neither the Quran

Or The Bible

Eradicate

Slavery Either;

It's Worth Noting Both

Profess An All Loving Forgiving

God That Burns 'His' (As If God ALL Has A Penis)
Creations That Makes Mistakes Forever In Torture;

Do i Have to Provide More Examples, Why Both Abrahamic

Religions Spawn Evil People In History Who Bury Lesbians To Their
Breasts And Stone Them In Saudi Arabia Or Tell Homosexuals In Both

Religions That Their Love Is Not Blessed By Nature And God The Same

As Perhaps The Baháʼí Faith Is as Close As Ya Get to A Practicing Religion

Of Folks Loving All, All Except of Course it Raises Its 'Guru' Above All Other

Gurus So Far too;

Back to

Favorite

Quarterbacks

For the Best NFL

Team That Just So Happens

to Be the One That Your Parents Love too...

Read the Books; Really Read the Books, If Ya

Wanna Know Why They Spawn the Most Evil People

In History As They Both At Core Threaten To Torture Folks

Who Don't Comply With the Rules Forever; That Has Nothing

To Do With All Loving Forgiving And Any Entity or Person Who

Requires Worship And Fears Criticism Is Nothing to Do With Agape

Love; Just Weak Narcissism Like Trump; No Matter Leader or God; The Authors Write

The Story

And People

Follow the

Stories as God;

Story Rules Bottom

Line; Better Lines Write A Kinder

Story; Play It; Act It; One that Is All Forgiving Loving;

No Ifs and or Buts Now For Excuses, if You Really Want

Nicer People to Come in Both Herstory And Or History True...

Haha of Course People Who Don't Go To Church Already Write, Act,

And Play Their Own Bibles of Course unless The Religion is the Politics

of Sport And the Sport of Politics; The Tribalism of Us Versus Them, God

Yes, The Human Condition,

Where Only

Outliers

Get

To Love

It All by their

Own Volition Against

The Tide; in Other Words,

Agape Love has No Tribal Place to Rest Agape Love

Now No Matter What The Politics of Religion or The Religion or Politics

Is; And To Be Clear, i have Friends from All Major Religions; The Most Consistently Loving

One, A Widowed Woman Muslim/Teacher, Mother Of Two From Egypt; Even Though i Surely Don't Agree with

The System of Her Religion Sharia That Still Has Laws For Cutting Thieve's Hands Off and the Such As That;

We Have a Relationship

of Agape Love; We

Are Able to Overlook

Our Differences As She

Doesn't Particularly Like

To View Naked People Either...

And i Most Definitely Am A Naturist;

All Of Her Is Covered And only 'The

Bear Necessities' of me for PG Audiences...

Hmm... Maybe R Depending On The Viewer's Perspectives of my Art...

The Silent Evil Is What Ya Have To Watch Out For; Like Bishops At the
Catholic Church i Used to Visit, Who Didn't Make Mask Wearing Mandatory;
Openly Chastising Folks too by Letter Who Criticize Folks Not Wearing Masks Like

It is Christian Duty to Turn The Other Cheek, While the Neighbor
Potentially Is Spreading A Deadly Disease Unmasked in Church;

The Support Endemic in the Church for A Real Father oF ALL

Lies, Donald J Trump, With the Priest Speaking For God Saying

God Says Vote For Trump In the Election; The Leader Who

Promised Folks Would Still Support Him On 5th Avenue

If He Shot Someone; So, He Models Unmasked Behavior

And The Bishop Goes Along With Not Following Safe

CDC Procedures Either, Following the Lead of A '5th Avenue

Shooter' Who Did Contribute to Hundreds of Thousands of Unnecessary Covid-19
Deaths And Incited A Deadly Insurrection to Over-Turn Democracy too;

While 'Jesus 2020' Flags And 'Jesus Saves Flags' Were Flying By A Gallows

Intended to Hang And Murder The Vice President IN THE NAME OF JESUS;

That's A Very Dangerous Name Indeed; Some Folks Use it For Love

Others Use

It to

Murder

The Sanctity

of Breathing Life,

IN Effect of A Deadly

Pandemic; Indeed Religion

Spawns the Most Evil People

IN History; The Human Condition of

Us Versus Them That Is Part of Human

Nature As Long As There Are Perceived Opposing

Tribes With Different Cultural Symbols Than Ours;

Religion Is What Binds And Bonds And By Inherent

Definition Tradition is What Excludes Others Who do

Not Follow The Same Tradition; The More Rational Question

Is Why Does the Human Condition Spawn Evil People; Us Versus

Them Because

This Is Part

of the

Human Condition;

Strife Against those

Who Are Not Like Us; Us Versus Them...

What's the Only Way Out of this; Join a Little

Church Out in the Country, Where Everyone Looks

Alike And Gossips Behind the Backs of Their Neighbors

Next Door To Make Themselves Feel A Little Bigger Than Others...

Ahem... It's rare that Someone Truly Becomes A Good Cop Jesus/Buddha/Lao Tzu

If They Ever Even Wrote A Word or Even Existed Per All Three of Those Examples...

It's Rare,

Yet i've

met a Few

in Small Groups;

Homeless Under Bridges

Who Give And Share Their

Life With Care As Together in Love

Means Basic Survival Naked As Love Breathes...

Yeah If Ya Wanna Find 'Real Jesus/Love, Go Look Under A Bridge...

The Human Condition That Needs Each Other to Survive Is Love;

It Is Technology That Has Replaced Our Need for Each Other

That Spawns the Most Evil, Overall; Naked Apes Stronger Still Together...

Bonobo Tribes Are Based on Love too; Until An Invading Tribe Comes Along too...

Most of us Live in Little Pods of 1 or 2 or 3 Humans Anyway in Four Walls; Yes

That

Works

Well Enough

To Survive too;

And In A Pandemic

Technology Is Our True Savior

And What Helps Birth Pandemics too...

The True Evil is Humans Are Evolved to Live

In Small Groups in Balance With Nature; The

True Evil is the Cultures We Have Created That

Are Eating the Real Face of God Nature That Is Our

Face too; Where The Zombie Apocalypse Started That Way Hundreds of Years ago...

And Most Definitely Beginning With Agriculture And Hoarding Grains In Silos For 'Time' To 'Rape' God's Face'...

Ya Gotta Get

to the Root

of the Problem

Baby,To Understand

Where All This Comes From;

Square Root Problem One; Humans

Are Evolved to Live Foraging, Giving
Sharing, Caring Together in Small Groups

In Balance With Nature; Imbalance Is The Root of Most All Problems Now In Existence...



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Last edited by aghogday on 01 May 2021, 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kraftiekortie
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01 May 2021, 6:41 pm

I feel like many atheists ARE moral. Many atheists believe in human-conceived moral values.

To call an atheist amoral merely by virtue of being an atheist is not right.



cyberdad
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01 May 2021, 6:43 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
To call an atheist amoral merely by virtue of being an atheist is not right.


Agreed



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01 May 2021, 7:02 pm

The A in Atheism merely means there's no morality prescribed by a fictional character named 'God'.

The blanket statement that Atheism is inherently immoral can easily be refuted by a counterexample. I pick Humanism and Ayn Rand.
Humanism obviously has a moral code, and so does Ayn Rand. The two codes however could not be more different.
The moral code of Hinduism and Scientology are both deistic but also, couldn't be more different.
So... The spectra of moral codes are wide and overlapping. Theism or Atheism is no useful gauge for moral code - I mean 'do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law' is the moral code of the church of Satan. You could argue that's amoral, but theism.


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01 May 2021, 7:28 pm

salad wrote:
Redd_Kross wrote:
Ghengis Khan? Pol Pot? Idi Amin? Joseph Stalin? Vlad the Impaler?

I think your analysis is rather selective.


Vlad the Impaler was a Christian.

Idi Amin was still a puppet of Britain, a Christian nation.

For all of Genghis Khan's atrocities he at least allowed other religions to flourish and practiced a form of religious tolerance unheard of since the days of Cyrus the Great himself, something Christians failed to do.

Pol Pot and Joseph Stalin were nasty fellows and do put most of history's villains to shame, and im the 1st to admit that the atheist communist dictators of the 20th century were also among history's worst monsters. However here's why I didnt call them out:

Christianity is a religion that by and large supports love and peace. For most of history's worst atrocities to be committed by Christians rings worse than if Atheists did the same because atheists don't adhere to an objective moral paradigm enshrining the sanctity of life and love. Atheism is inherently amoral and thus does not lend itself to objective morals. Christians who believe in objective morals promoting pacifism and love yet going on to commit history's most barbaric atrocities is much more confounding and thus more warranting of greater investigation to resolve such an anomaly.


Nah, not really.
Christianity is strucurally a doomsday cult - give away your wealth, kiss your enemy etc.
You can't build a society on 'give away all your wealth'. That only makes sense if you die sometime soon, or jesus returns.
But societies are intergenerational, they can't be built on the same rules that apply to mortal individuals.
So, Christianity had a cognitive dissonance to bridge built into it. That's possibly the reason why Christianity eventually developed "modern" societies, because it's inherently unstable. I put "modern" in inverted commas to emphasize I'm trying to use it as a name for the societies, and less as a descriptive term. After all, it's "modern" societies who decided to call themselves "modern", not an evaluation by some neutral observer.


If you look at Genghis khan's empire: it rose and collapsed so fast, the mongols had no time creating institutions to terroroze citizens, or force their religion on anyone with any lasting effect. They were pillaging horsemen. They did however rape any eoman they could get their hands on.

And when it comes to evil *individuals*, unit 731 probably leads the pack.
Speaking if which, neither the Rwandan genocide, nor the rape of Nanjing or the very recent Rohingya genocide have anything to do with Christianity.


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cyberdad
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01 May 2021, 7:41 pm

shlaifu wrote:
Christianity is strucurally a doomsday cult - give away your wealth, kiss your enemy etc.
You can't build a society on 'give away all your wealth'. That only makes sense if you die sometime soon, or jesus returns.


:lol:

This precisely illustrates why christianity is declining. If you take the literal meaning of the bible its often crazy talk and those who claim to follow it know this.

I think you are beating a dead horse, Gandhi said it best.....when asked about christianity he replied "it's a good idea" (meaning nobody actually ever practiced it).