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IsabellaLinton
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29 Jul 2021, 11:10 pm

Bradleigh wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
I know, right! Do couples actually go on dates and talk about international economics?

I don't get it.


International economics sounds like a fun date topic to me, I did study economics after all, and there can be a lot interesting discussion that can come from different points of view.

I can say that on the dating app I started using it can include information people enter about their politics, just if anything might be a deal breaker. And certain political issues can be deal breakers for certain people, such that I am probably not going to date someone who believes very strongly in things like traditional gender roles. It doesn't mean not dating someone of a different politics.


OK, I understand that. I would want to agree about gender roles as well ... but is that "politics" ?

Isn't that just your personal value system? Isn't that a relationship issue?

I didn't know that my role as a woman was governed by politics.

I thought it was free will, and personal choice? I have the legal right to be whoever I want to be, whether single or in a relationship. If the other person feels the same way, that's their personal choice as well. Why does it matter what's happening in Washington DC ?



IsabellaLinton
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29 Jul 2021, 11:13 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

My mom's mom married the 20 something guy who knocked her up at 14. Her mom made her take two siblings with her when she moved out and was neglectful and abusive beforehand. My grandma was 'the idiot' in her first marriage but I'm not sure I blame her for resenting the prudish, spendthrift workaholic she married given the circumstances.

In think in that time the healthiest relationships incorporated the principals we'd agree are healthy, but understood through the lens of the time. If they were as progressive as we'd like to idealize them as that would mean there's never actually been any need for progress and I think history disproves that.

Healthy ones would have definitely involved respect for each others contributions, but most of those would have still expected those contributions within the roles as defined. To be fair, strictly adhering to those roles involved a degree of privilege (poor people or frontier people were more likely to buck trends than families that could afford to not work with their hands).

When I try to navigate my family tree it's traumatized kids who grow up to fail as parents all the way down, no wonder I don't want kids. :oops:


I have a similar family tree, especially on my dad's side of the family. My paternal grandmother got pregnant on her first date with my grandfather. I don't know if the sex was consensual but I haven't heard otherwise. Regardless it was the 1930s. My grandmother's parents threw her out homeless, and disinherited her from a sizeable family estate. She married my grandfather because she was homeless. I don't know if he married her out of obligation or affection, but their marriage was never very happy. I won't blame their unhappiness on gender roles or the fact he worked to support her and their baby (my aunt). I think they were just incompatible. My grandfather was very likely autistic. He experienced profound depression and mental illness throughout his life, and eventually abandoned us all to go into reclusive hiding, when I was five years old. He later killed himself. I can't say there was strict adherence of any roles in this marriage. They stayed together as long as they could. She watched him deteriorate, and watched him disappear when she already had grown children and grandkids. They cooperated as much as they could, given the circumstance. Mental health and pregnancy shaped this marriage, but I wouldn't blame gender roles or say that my grandfather was a cruel husband.


My dad's dad's mom sounds like she had autism (and same with those two), she also suffered a mental breakdown later in life which doesn't seem that far-fetched for an undiagnosed woman in that era.

I wouldn't blame any single factor on how any of them dealt with life but I do believe the same pressures we talk about now existed then, it's just fewer people talked about them openly.

The discussion and the vocabulary didn't create the problems though, it's just identified some of them.


Have you read The Bell Jar?



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29 Jul 2021, 11:32 pm

So as far as the notion goes that ring wing men are said because women are too conservative for them, could the argument be made on the opposite political end of the spectrum that left wing men are sad, because they go for left wing misandrist women, and bend over for them?



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29 Jul 2021, 11:36 pm

ironpony wrote:
So as far as the notion goes that ring wing men are said because women are too conservative for them, could the argument be made on the opposite political end of the spectrum that left wing men are sad, because they go for left wing misandrist women, and bend over for them?


Is there any evidence of that though? How many left wing men end up bitter incels but still left leaning?


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funeralxempire
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29 Jul 2021, 11:38 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Have you read The Bell Jar?


No but it sounds interesting.


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29 Jul 2021, 11:48 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
ironpony wrote:
So as far as the notion goes that ring wing men are said because women are too conservative for them, could the argument be made on the opposite political end of the spectrum that left wing men are sad, because they go for left wing misandrist women, and bend over for them?


Is there any evidence of that though? How many left wing men end up bitter incels but still left leaning?


Oh I wasn't talking about incels, but left wing men who end up with women that that seem to angry and bitter towards men it seems, compared to right wing women, who although may be more conversative, still seem to like men more.



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29 Jul 2021, 11:52 pm

ironpony wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
ironpony wrote:
So as far as the notion goes that ring wing men are said because women are too conservative for them, could the argument be made on the opposite political end of the spectrum that left wing men are sad, because they go for left wing misandrist women, and bend over for them?


Is there any evidence of that though? How many left wing men end up bitter incels but still left leaning?


Oh I wasn't talking about incels, but left wing men who end up with women that that seem to angry and bitter towards men it seems, compared to right wing women, who although may be more conversative, still seem to like men more.


I dunno, I guess what I mean is can you find an example of what you're describing or is it just a hypothetical that could potentially exist, logically speaking?


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29 Jul 2021, 11:53 pm

From people I know. They have really left wing politics and it seems that on that side of the spectrum the women seem to hate men, or not think much of them, and the men do the women want to please them too much. But only going by more left wing people I know personally.



IsabellaLinton
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29 Jul 2021, 11:55 pm

There are lots of women who are bitter toward men these days, and many of them would identify as leftwing or liberal.

The only question is whether or not those women would want to date a man at all.



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29 Jul 2021, 11:56 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
When I try to navigate my family tree it's traumatized kids who grow up to fail as parents all the way down, no wonder I don't want kids. :oops:


Wow that sucks. All of us go back far enough in our family trees there will be skeletons in the old closet.
I had a relative of an ancestor who poured kerosine over his wife while she next to a hearth (old stove) and she caught fire and was burned. The memory of that murder still impact the grandkids who try to cope by writing poetry among other stuff.

My great grandfather and my uncle were physically violent men.



IsabellaLinton
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29 Jul 2021, 11:57 pm

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
When I try to navigate my family tree it's traumatized kids who grow up to fail as parents all the way down, no wonder I don't want kids. :oops:


Wow that sucks. All of us go back far enough in our family trees there will be skeletons in the old closet.
I had a relative of an ancestor who poured kerosine over his wife while she next to a hearth (old stove) and she caught fire and was burned. The memory of that murder still impact the grandkids who try to cope by writing poetry among other stuff.

My dad's dad and my uncle were physically violent men.


That's awful too.

My great aunt was accused of murdering both her husbands. She put the ashes from one of them down her garbage disposal. She also kidnapped my mother and aunts in the trunk of her car.

Women can be whack jobs too.



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29 Jul 2021, 11:58 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
There are lots of women who are bitter toward men these days, and many of them would identify as leftwing or liberal.

The only question is whether or not those women would want to date a man at all.


Yeah, I'd assume women working though those issues might not be very interested in dating men. WGTOW so to speak.


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30 Jul 2021, 12:00 am

ironpony wrote:
From people I know. They have really left wing politics and it seems that on that side of the spectrum the women seem to hate men, or not think much of them, and the men do the women want to please them too much. But only going by more left wing people I know personally.


For what it's worth I've never had to bend over backwards in a relationship or dated anyone who seemed like a misandrist.


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30 Jul 2021, 12:02 am

Oh okay. I'm just going by people I know who describe their women as very left wing.



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30 Jul 2021, 12:03 am

Mikah wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
The 80s? Seriously you have nothing better than stuff that happened almost 40 years ago, only being relevant recently for a person apologising for what happened back then? That is piss poor evidence, especially in the current climate information is more freely available via things like the internet. Not to mention that the investigators finding these things were commissioned by the party itself to find these things.


The people involved were still active in politics when it all came to light, so it's modern enough and its roots go far deeper and wider than you know. You will no doubt forever try to move the goalposts to save face, but I think that article alone meets the criteria for

Bradleigh wrote:
credible allegations of accepted movements on the Left Wing in pushing for paedophilia.


I suggest you keep reading before you start defending them. That article tastefully left out the most sordid details of that particular scandal and the more recent one where Left wing politicians allowed and later tried to cover up a scheme to deliberately place children with known paedophiles believing the sexual relationship would be beneficial. The last such fostering was still in progress after the turn of the century.



The article did say that the person "signed off" on a "platform arguing that sex between adults and children, in some cases, be legal", which I would be curious about what that means. I was hoping for a reference to what the platform was, since you could similarly argue that conservative pushes to keep it legal for parents to marry off their daughters that got them pregnant, can mean the exact same thing. I would like the clarification to see at as more than say a platform that might have said an 18 year old having sex with their 17 year old girlfriend they were dating before their birthday. I will believe that whatever it was was probably gross though.

The article itself talks about how those particular people were mostly kicked out of the party by 85 via feminists, it wouldn't be surprising if this is mostly cases of paedophiles taking advantage of the creation of the Greens party at the time to push ideology, when they were forming it, but were found to not be in line with the actual beliefs. This was all still like around 40 years ago, you probably at this time could have used used 40 years before that to say that those in the Right are all literal Nazis.

The article goes back even further to talk about junk psychology science of the 60s, and is kind of implying that these researches were Left wing at the time, and somehow still represent the Left after there has been a lot to discredit all of these beliefs. We are talking Freud level stuff here, where psychologists used to think gay people were too close to their mothers and thus wanted to emulate them by being penetrated.

Could you point me to the covering up of facilitating abuse? Especially something that would be unique to the Left, because for example the Catholic church covered up a lot of similar things. A lot of the rest of the article just seems to be cherry picking things, because it would probably be easy to cherry pick a whole lot of people paedophile facilitating beliefs on any political spectrum, and most of them again seemed to end in the 80s. Again, 8Chan was was very Right and did a lot of child pornography, and you can find a lot of Republican politicians who defend the laws to keep child marriages.



Mikah wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There is no real correlation between pedophilia and politically “left” ideology.


Oh but there is. It's not ubiquitous, neither is it central to Leftism, but it has always been there, arm in arm with all the other sexual rights movements and is probably still is lurking in dark corners, waiting for their moment.

https://www.spiegel.de/international/ge ... 99544.html

He is a boy, roughly 10 years old, with a pretty face, full lips, a straight nose and shoulder-length hair. The wings of an angel protrude from his narrow back, and a penis is drawn with thin lines on the front of his body.

The 1986 image was printed in the newsletter of the Green Party's national working group on "Gays, Pederasts and Transsexuals," abbreviated as "BAG SchwuP." It wasn't just sent to a few scattered party members, but was addressed to Green Party members of the German parliament, as well as the party's headquarters in Bonn.

Documents like this have become a problem for the Greens today. Some 33 years after the party was founded, it is now being haunted by a chapter in its history that many would have preferred to forget. No political group in Germany promoted the interests of men with pedophile tendencies as staunchly as the environmental party. For a period of time in the mid-1980s, it practically served as the parliamentary arm of the pedophile movement.

A look at its archives reveals numerous traces of the pedophiles' flirtation with the Green Party. They appear in motions, party resolutions, memos and even reports by the party treasurer. That is because at times the party not only supported its now forgotten fellow campaigners politically, but also more tangibly, in the form of financial support.

When the Green Party was founded in 1980, pedophiles were part of the movement from the start -- not at the center of its activities, but always hovering along the periphery. At the first party convention in the southwestern German city of Karlsruhe, pacifists, feminists and opponents of nuclear energy were joined by the so-called "Urban Indians," who advocated the "legalization of all affectionate sexual relations between adults and children." From then on, pedophiles, noisy and wearing colorful body paint, were often a visible part of Green Party gatherings.


And this is just Germany again. There was a similar scandal in the UK for the New Labour party after they came to power in 1997, but that was buried by their allies in the media. Keep digging anywhere in the counter culture movements of the 60s onwards and there you find them.


Some interesting additions to this article, such as it mentioned that the Greens played a key role in demanding answers for allegations of sexual abuse by the Catholic church, clearly after they no longer had the pro-pedophile platform people. The article also mentions that at the time the Greens were the only hope for the pedophiles at the time due to the fact it stood up for sexual minorities at the time (so gay and trans people), so the pedophiles kind of just forced themselves into the party. Especially the end of the article mentions how the rest of the party were sick of being lumped with them.

Also, curious, why is it only the German Greens party? If this is indicative of an inherent element of the Left, shouldn't there be other examples from Green/progressive parties that were similar in platforms? Kind of just looks like an example specific 1980s Germany, coming from the specific culture from the 1960s for ending sexual repression (which is a good thing), that happened in this particular part of the world a specific of abusive sexual freedom tried to sneak in. And ended in the mid 80s with the feminist movement, which put much more focus on victims. Unless there are other examples, kind of seems a bit intellectually dishonest to pretend that this is representative of the Left in general.


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IsabellaLinton
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30 Jul 2021, 12:05 am

funeralxempire wrote:
ironpony wrote:
From people I know. They have really left wing politics and it seems that on that side of the spectrum the women seem to hate men, or not think much of them, and the men do the women want to please them too much. But only going by more left wing people I know personally.


For what it's worth I've never had to bend over backwards in a relationship or dated anyone who seemed like a misandrist.


and for what it's worth when I meet misandrists or any -ists, I have a word or two with them. :twisted: