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Tim_Tex
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03 Aug 2021, 10:39 am

naturalplastic wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
I hear the foreskins are kept for their collagen, and are used in collagen injections.


God must have a perdy complexion. :nerdy:

He has big sensual lips. Or am I am confusing collagen with botox?


Not sure, but it reminds me of the very first episode of Family Guy where Meg got the lip injections


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Misslizard
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03 Aug 2021, 12:41 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
What does God do with all of those foreskins anyways? :chin:



He is collecting them so he can use the material in them (combined with all of those fruitcakes folks give each other but never eat on Xmas) to ...create a whole second universe!

You forgot the missing socks the dryer takes.Those are the fabric for the second universe.


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naturalplastic
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03 Aug 2021, 12:49 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Religious liberty is a natural extension of the right to bodily autonomy. You can believe what you like, and you can do what you like with your own body.

Your right to bodily autonomy does not extend to the bodies of others. You do not have the right to force your religion upon others. You do not have the right to subjugate others. You do not have the right to remove other people’s body parts without their consent.


Sentence one is nonsense. You absolutely DO have the right to indoctrinate (ie force) your religion upon your underaged children because ...thats how its done. The only way any religion propagates.


It doesn't matter how religion needs to propagate.

Suppose everyone has the right to food, but even if the only way for some people to get something to eat, is by eating other human beings, it is still no excuse for killing/cannibalism.

The same thing applies to religion. It doesn't matter how the religion needs to propagate, if they need a child's consent to religious rituals imposed on that child - that's what they'll need. It's no excuse for the use of force that their religion will eventually die, if they cannot get the child's consent.


Exactly. Canibalism is such an egregious crime that stopping it over rides the state's respect for freedom of religion- and justifies the state making an exception for the purpose of curtailing freedom of religion. LIMITING "freedom of religion". Not expanding freedom of religion.

Same with body deforming rituals like circumcision. Imposing an age limit on when children can be circumcised (even if its to the age of consent) is a constraint upon freedom of religion. Not an expansion of freedom of religion. May well be the right thing for the govt to do- intrude - and enforce that rule against the will of the religious community in question. But even if its right it is what it is... a contraction of, and not an expansion of, "freedom of religion".



naturalplastic
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03 Aug 2021, 12:52 pm

Misslizard wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
What does God do with all of those foreskins anyways? :chin:



He is collecting them so he can use the material in them (combined with all of those fruitcakes folks give each other but never eat on Xmas) to ...create a whole second universe!

You forgot the missing socks the dryer takes.Those are the fabric for the second universe.


That too. I dont loose socks like most folks. But my handkerchiefs vanish.

But thats what the space continuum is made of:the vanished socks and handkerchiefs from the previous cosmos.



funeralxempire
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03 Aug 2021, 12:57 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
I hear the foreskins are kept for their collagen, and are used in collagen injections.


God must have a perdy complexion. :nerdy:

He has big sensual lips. Or am I am confusing collagen with botox?


Not sure, but it reminds me of the very first episode of Family Guy where Meg got the lip injections




Back when Meg was Lacey Chabert.


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Misslizard
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03 Aug 2021, 1:40 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
What does God do with all of those foreskins anyways? :chin:



He is collecting them so he can use the material in them (combined with all of those fruitcakes folks give each other but never eat on Xmas) to ...create a whole second universe!

You forgot the missing socks the dryer takes.Those are the fabric for the second universe.


That too. I dont loose socks like most folks. But my handkerchiefs vanish.

But thats what the space continuum is made of:the vanished socks and handkerchiefs from the previous cosmos.

It has my best Godzilla t-shirt.
https://www.teepublic.com/t-shirt/36494 ... f-kanagawa
It’s went missing.I have looked everywhere. I haven’t been anywhere to lose it and no one has been here to steal it.


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ToughDiamond
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03 Aug 2021, 3:09 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
I wouldn’t class taking your (young) children along to religious services or giving them religious lessons to be “forcing” a religion upon them. If there isn’t an element of force then it isn’t force. I think everything that could constitute “forcing” a religion would constitute child abuse in any context.

I think if the child isn't allowed to opt out, then it's force of some kind. There's also the question of whether or not the church is brainwashing the kids. It's a rare church service that doesn't talk as if their deity existed for sure. Repeat that to a young enough child and you'll very likely end up with a believer. Ideally I'd like it if parents didn't talk about their religion to their kids, and if they must, to at lease precede their assertions by "I think....." and to openly admit to them that nobody really knows. But it's not going to happen. A lot of religious people are convinced that they're doing their kids a favour by raising them in their religious persuasion, and it's hard to know how they could be stopped.

I don't know how parents could actively discourage the kids trying to follow in their footsteps if they were religious. Kids will copy their parents. I never mentioned religion to my son till he asked, and then I didn't say much, just a brief explanation that I didn't believe it. He grew up to be secular, and I still don't know how much of that was my doing, even though I never tried to persuade him one way or the other. I was quite relieved at his choice.

He never even dabbled in religion as far as I know. I'd always hoped he'd be a vegetarian like I am, but again I left it to him and he certainly ate his share of sausages, fish fingers and beefburgers for several years. To my surprise he eventually became vegan, and now when he visits me I feel guilty that I'm not quite that ethical. And ironically he's influencing me in that direction these days, in a mild way, and without any attempt to persuade me, simply by his personal eating habits.



Harry Haller
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03 Aug 2021, 3:19 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
So why do the U.S and EU not ban circumcision of children, until the child can voluntarily agree to the surgical procedure?

You are trying to think, and that is an activity universally outlawed by religions everywhere.



ToughDiamond
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03 Aug 2021, 6:55 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
So why do the U.S and EU not ban circumcision of children, until the child can voluntarily agree to the surgical procedure?

Even assuming that those governing bodies care one way or the other, they wouldn't want to risk a religious backlash.



naturalplastic
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04 Aug 2021, 2:23 am

ToughDiamond wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
So why do the U.S and EU not ban circumcision of children, until the child can voluntarily agree to the surgical procedure?

Even assuming that those governing bodies care one way or the other, they wouldn't want to risk a religious backlash.


That.

But also infant male circumcision is thousands of years old, and has not ended the world yet. So the powers at be dont see an urgent reason to outlaw it.

But there is another thing. In the 20 the century the medical establishment in the western world had a fad theory it was unhealthy NOT to circumcise male babies. So it became the norm to do it automatically- not just for the tiny minority of Jews and (and the tiny number of Muslim kids then in Western countries)- but for every newborn baby in the whole majority Gentile population of the US and other western countries. Whole generations of Gentiles got the treatment.

Its only recently stopped being mandatory for EVERYONE (even Gentiles). So it would be too radical a thing to jerk society around that much: go from "everybody automatically gets it" to "NO body- even the communities who have done for thousands of years, can have it now".



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04 Aug 2021, 4:52 am

naturalplastic wrote:
I was talking about modern western Europe/North America.
There is no state control of religion.
Even in the UK where public schools teach religion and the head of state is also the leader of the state church?
naturalplastic wrote:
You absolutely DO have the right to indoctrinate (ie force) your religion upon your underaged children because ...thats how its done. The only way any religion propagates.
No it's not. People are free to join a religion that their parents weren't involved in. Ever read Epistles? There's a whole lot of converting people whose parents didn't have that religion.

What about those modern cults? How do they get members if the parents weren't involved? If parent to child was the only way religion propagated then no new religions would ever have been able to get started. We wouldn't have religion because even the first religion wouldn't have been able to get started.

If you believe those evangelistic types new people are joining their churches all the time from their own free will. Not because their parents made them go.

If you don't believe those evangelistic types, well, no church has a right to keep going if people don't choose to join at a rate fast enough to make up for old members leaving or dying off.


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The_Walrus
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04 Aug 2021, 2:09 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
So why do the U.S and EU not ban circumcision of children, until the child can voluntarily agree to the surgical procedure?

Even assuming that those governing bodies care one way or the other, they wouldn't want to risk a religious backlash.


That.

But also infant male circumcision is thousands of years old, and has not ended the world yet. So the powers at be dont see an urgent reason to outlaw it.

But there is another thing. In the 20 the century the medical establishment in the western world had a fad theory it was unhealthy NOT to circumcise male babies. So it became the norm to do it automatically- not just for the tiny minority of Jews and (and the tiny number of Muslim kids then in Western countries)- but for every newborn baby in the whole majority Gentile population of the US and other western countries. Whole generations of Gentiles got the treatment.

Its only recently stopped being mandatory for EVERYONE (even Gentiles). So it would be too radical a thing to jerk society around that much: go from "everybody automatically gets it" to "NO body- even the communities who have done for thousands of years, can have it now".

I think you're overestimating how common circumcision is in Western countries other than the US.

US: 71%
New Zealand: 33%
Canada: 32%
Australia: 26.5%
Belgium: 22.5%
UK: 21%
France: 14%
Germany: 10%

In most of Europe, and Central and South America, circumcision rates aren't significantly different from the portion of the population who are Jewish or Muslim. And it's only the US which circumcised most people for generations in recent memory.

Source: https://pophealthmetrics.biomedcentral. ... 5/tables/1



naturalplastic
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04 Aug 2021, 7:26 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
So why do the U.S and EU not ban circumcision of children, until the child can voluntarily agree to the surgical procedure?

Even assuming that those governing bodies care one way or the other, they wouldn't want to risk a religious backlash.


That.

But also infant male circumcision is thousands of years old, and has not ended the world yet. So the powers at be dont see an urgent reason to outlaw it.

But there is another thing. In the 20 the century the medical establishment in the western world had a fad theory it was unhealthy NOT to circumcise male babies. So it became the norm to do it automatically- not just for the tiny minority of Jews and (and the tiny number of Muslim kids then in Western countries)- but for every newborn baby in the whole majority Gentile population of the US and other western countries. Whole generations of Gentiles got the treatment.

Its only recently stopped being mandatory for EVERYONE (even Gentiles). So it would be too radical a thing to jerk society around that much: go from "everybody automatically gets it" to "NO body- even the communities who have done for thousands of years, can have it now".

I think you're overestimating how common circumcision is in Western countries other than the US.

US: 71%
New Zealand: 33%
Canada: 32%
Australia: 26.5%
Belgium: 22.5%
UK: 21%
France: 14%
Germany: 10%

In most of Europe, and Central and South America, circumcision rates aren't significantly different from the portion of the population who are Jewish or Muslim. And it's only the US which circumcised most people for generations in recent memory.

Source: https://pophealthmetrics.biomedcentral. ... 5/tables/1


I was talking about the US, and just mentioned other western countries as an afterthought-just to cover my bases. Thats interesting that most other western countries never bought into it. But my point still stands. Certain religious groups have done in for millenia, and for a couple generations a big population of nonbelieving people had it done (namely the whole male half of the USA). So its kinda normalized so its not high priority to ban the practice. The way that say female circumcision would be (rare in the industrialized west and stands out and has more obvious bad health consequences), or that canibalism would be, etc.



naturalplastic
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04 Aug 2021, 7:29 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
I was talking about modern western Europe/North America.
There is no state control of religion.
Even in the UK where public schools teach religion and the head of state is also the leader of the state church? .


Tell Retro that. Not ME! You messed up the quote mechanism, and made it look like I said that. But he said it to counter what I said. If anything...I agree with you. There is some state pressure about religion even in the advanced countries of the west.



Redd_Kross
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04 Aug 2021, 7:30 pm

Calamari.



RetroGamer87
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04 Aug 2021, 7:34 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
So why do the U.S and EU not ban circumcision of children, until the child can voluntarily agree to the surgical procedure?

Even assuming that those governing bodies care one way or the other, they wouldn't want to risk a religious backlash.


That.

But also infant male circumcision is thousands of years old, and has not ended the world yet. So the powers at be dont see an urgent reason to outlaw it.

But there is another thing. In the 20 the century the medical establishment in the western world had a fad theory it was unhealthy NOT to circumcise male babies. So it became the norm to do it automatically- not just for the tiny minority of Jews and (and the tiny number of Muslim kids then in Western countries)- but for every newborn baby in the whole majority Gentile population of the US and other western countries. Whole generations of Gentiles got the treatment.

Its only recently stopped being mandatory for EVERYONE (even Gentiles). So it would be too radical a thing to jerk society around that much: go from "everybody automatically gets it" to "NO body- even the communities who have done for thousands of years, can have it now".

I think you're overestimating how common circumcision is in Western countries other than the US.

US: 71%
New Zealand: 33%
Canada: 32%
Australia: 26.5%
Belgium: 22.5%
UK: 21%
France: 14%
Germany: 10%

In most of Europe, and Central and South America, circumcision rates aren't significantly different from the portion of the population who are Jewish or Muslim. And it's only the US which circumcised most people for generations in recent memory.

Source: https://pophealthmetrics.biomedcentral. ... 5/tables/1


Are you sure that the UK is 21% Jewish? I think some gentiles might be getting circumcised to get the numbers that high. Same for France, Germany and Belgium.


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