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Dox47
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02 Sep 2021, 3:41 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
What I'm saying is that political correctness is just a reflection of the Overton window. Some ideas, positions, ideals, etc will always be too outrageous to be able to be easily advocated for or defended because they're fundamentally at odds with how that society (or other group of people) views things.

If the outsider is correct about something, bitching about PC-this and PC-that won't make their case more compelling (think Copernicus and the heliocentric universe).

If the outsider is wrong complaining about political correctness might be all they have, so they'll rely on it (think Donald Trump whining about being deplatformed while using many platforms to make those complaints).


I don't think that's quite right, many of the things that will get you in trouble on social media are well within the Overton window, but extremely vocal minorities have made so much noise that they're de facto able to control the discourse despite their position being the actual outlier one. Trans issues are the poster child here, even something as mild as suggesting that some of the massive increase in young people identifying as trans or non-binary might be socially driven is enough to get you labeled as transphobic and unleash a small army poring over everything about you they can find in an attempt to destroy your life.


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funeralxempire
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02 Sep 2021, 3:55 pm

Dox47 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
What I'm saying is that political correctness is just a reflection of the Overton window. Some ideas, positions, ideals, etc will always be too outrageous to be able to be easily advocated for or defended because they're fundamentally at odds with how that society (or other group of people) views things.

If the outsider is correct about something, bitching about PC-this and PC-that won't make their case more compelling (think Copernicus and the heliocentric universe).

If the outsider is wrong complaining about political correctness might be all they have, so they'll rely on it (think Donald Trump whining about being deplatformed while using many platforms to make those complaints).


I don't think that's quite right, many of the things that will get you in trouble on social media are well within the Overton window, but extremely vocal minorities have made so much noise that they're de facto able to control the discourse despite their position being the actual outlier one. Trans issues are the poster child here, even something as mild as suggesting that some of the massive increase in young people identifying as trans or non-binary might be socially driven is enough to get you labeled as transphobic and unleash a small army poring over everything about you they can find in an attempt to destroy your life.


A community that has long been treated with hostility and antagonism has many members who are intolerant of being antagonized? 8O


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King0fSpades
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02 Sep 2021, 3:59 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
What I'm saying is that political correctness is just a reflection of the Overton window. Some ideas, positions, ideals, etc will always be too outrageous to be able to be easily advocated for or defended because they're fundamentally at odds with how that society (or other group of people) views things.

If the outsider is correct about something, bitching about PC-this and PC-that won't make their case more compelling (think Copernicus and the heliocentric universe).

If the outsider is wrong complaining about political correctness might be all they have, so they'll rely on it (think Donald Trump whining about being deplatformed while using many platforms to make those complaints).


I don't think that's quite right, many of the things that will get you in trouble on social media are well within the Overton window, but extremely vocal minorities have made so much noise that they're de facto able to control the discourse despite their position being the actual outlier one. Trans issues are the poster child here, even something as mild as suggesting that some of the massive increase in young people identifying as trans or non-binary might be socially driven is enough to get you labeled as transphobic and unleash a small army poring over everything about you they can find in an attempt to destroy your life.


A community that has long been treated with hostility and antagonism has many members who are intolerant of being antagonized? 8O


But what about being intolerant of simple criticism? I'm a gay man who has been accused of being transphobic simply because I didn't think it was right when a transgender woman lied to her partner on TV and then humiliated him on Jerry Springer. I also have been shamed by the LGBTQ community because I did not think it was right for New York to ban all gay cops from attending Pride Week.


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funeralxempire
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02 Sep 2021, 4:04 pm

King0fSpades wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
What I'm saying is that political correctness is just a reflection of the Overton window. Some ideas, positions, ideals, etc will always be too outrageous to be able to be easily advocated for or defended because they're fundamentally at odds with how that society (or other group of people) views things.

If the outsider is correct about something, bitching about PC-this and PC-that won't make their case more compelling (think Copernicus and the heliocentric universe).

If the outsider is wrong complaining about political correctness might be all they have, so they'll rely on it (think Donald Trump whining about being deplatformed while using many platforms to make those complaints).


I don't think that's quite right, many of the things that will get you in trouble on social media are well within the Overton window, but extremely vocal minorities have made so much noise that they're de facto able to control the discourse despite their position being the actual outlier one. Trans issues are the poster child here, even something as mild as suggesting that some of the massive increase in young people identifying as trans or non-binary might be socially driven is enough to get you labeled as transphobic and unleash a small army poring over everything about you they can find in an attempt to destroy your life.


A community that has long been treated with hostility and antagonism has many members who are intolerant of being antagonized? 8O


But what about being intolerant of simple criticism? I'm a gay man who has been accused of being transphobic simply because I didn't think it was right when a transgender woman lied to her partner on TV and then humiliated him on Jerry Springer. I also have been shamed by the LGBTQ community because I did not think it was right for New York to ban all gay cops from attending Pride Week.


People can make accusations but that doesn't mean every accusation holds water.


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Bradleigh
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02 Sep 2021, 9:53 pm

What is politically correct changes on the time and culture, right? Whatever happens to be the politics.

For instance, for while it may not be politically correct to talk down about gay people now, it used to be politically correct to not even acknowledge gay people. If something is considered politically correct, it is probably more useful to figure out why it is considered that way, and or why it is controversial.

As other examples, a dislike of even police that may be LGBT in a civil rights movement like Pride, may have more to do with the controversy over police as an organisation that has a long standing problem as a barrier to similar encompassing civil rights that are at more risk of being weakened from a whitewashing the police. That many consider the police itself to have turned into a gang that focuses on protecting its own at the expense of minority groups that interact with the Pride movement as an aspect of intersectionality. And the show of a gay police officer only works to excuse the police of blame from discrimination of other kinds.

Things have quickly moved to a point in politics where to actually bring change, many people are seeing that trying to change the police from within is a lost cause, and may not even be able to trust those who are willing to stand by the gang mentality. And as much as I think the recent changes to the Pride flag are a bit cringe with additions for ethnicity, it isn't difficult to see how Pride is more than LGBT, it is about anyone being able to be proud and live as who they are, which should include the protection of ethnicities that get targeted by the police.

All of that to say that to focus on the point of critiquing something as politically correct or not, you do have to understand why people consider certain truths as political, and why you might socially break a rule and receive criticism yourself for taking a certain stance. Whether something is a truth, a half truth designed for a certain politics, or an entirely misplaced belief that may be overturned in a more enlightened era, people like simple answers, and whatever simple answer can be made widely adopted can have wide ramifications.

Such that maybe even back in WWII a lot of Nazi soldiers could have been wonderful people that treated themselves well and loved their family and their country that they would die to protect. But what good does that do when there are a whole of goddamn evil things that come out of the ideology and movement? Different politically correct things can be ideologically opposed. Where one stance of political correctness from a side of politics is to not let Israel be made into a bogyman, which can mean not allowing too much criticism of Israel. But another stance is that it isn't politically correct to ignore criticism of Israel when they are literally doing their own genocide of Palestine in a number of atrocities. It is a complicated subject with a lot of truths, half truths and things that are probably going to look downright awful in a more enlightened era, but a centrist take no sides in terms of political correctness or just randomly picking a simple answer from one side, isn't going to necessarily come to the right answer.

Political correctness is at best an attempt by someone of an informed opinion trying to make a topic simple enough for everyone to understand to reach a good answer, and at worst someone acting out of fear/hate of something they don't understand and not even wanting that questioned. Political correctness itself is not good or evil, only a stance to give the more educated and enlightened people the ability to reach better results without needing to fight with a bunch of people that think something like horse de-wormer can get ride of a virus.


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King0fSpades
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02 Sep 2021, 10:06 pm

Sometimes I think I would be much better off not giving a damn about the horrible things that are going on in the world, but I can't help myself. This thing called 'empathy' is such a curse and people everywhere will treat you like a bad person for having it. :shrug:


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Bradleigh
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02 Sep 2021, 10:36 pm

King0fSpades wrote:
Sometimes I think I would be much better off not giving a damn about the horrible things that are going on in the world, but I can't help myself. This thing called 'empathy' is such a curse and people everywhere will treat you like a bad person for having it. :shrug:


It depends on what one might prioritise empathy towards. Does one act on the empathy of the dragon having a family over the maiden that it kidnapped?

It might not always be so black and white, but if you want to criticise the call to slay the dragon you are going to have to interact with a far more complicated discussion and understand the likely ramifications. Turning the other cheek and taking a purely no violence approach may work, but you might be asking a lot of people to needlessly sacrifice themselves for a future that isn't just going to materialise itself.

If you do care so much about the awful things happening in the world, then you are probably going to have to face either just accepting some political correctness that as far as you can see does the least harm. Or you are going to be involved in a lot of complicated discussions that will have people telling you that you are defending bad things.


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King0fSpades
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02 Sep 2021, 10:46 pm

Bradleigh wrote:
King0fSpades wrote:
Sometimes I think I would be much better off not giving a damn about the horrible things that are going on in the world, but I can't help myself. This thing called 'empathy' is such a curse and people everywhere will treat you like a bad person for having it. :shrug:


It depends on what one might prioritise empathy towards. Does one act on the empathy of the dragon having a family over the maiden that it kidnapped?

It might not always be so black and white, but if you want to criticise the call to slay the dragon you are going to have to interact with a far more complicated discussion and understand the likely ramifications. Turning the other cheek and taking a purely no violence approach may work, but you might be asking a lot of people to needlessly sacrifice themselves for a future that isn't just going to materialise itself.

If you do care so much about the awful things happening in the world, then you are probably going to have to face either just accepting some political correctness that as far as you can see does the least harm. Or you are going to be involved in a lot of complicated discussions that will have people telling you that you are defending bad things.


I'm not defending 'bad things'. And frankly I find it insulting if you are implying that I do.


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Bradleigh
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02 Sep 2021, 10:48 pm

To pull from examples of fantasy fiction, because that is where my headspace is in digesting complicated issues. You have the Witcher series, you have the main character Geralt who takes an infamous enlightened centrist view of “Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all.”

The thing is that the view sounds really nice, and a lot of people might even think it is super noble, but a lot of them I think miss the actual stance in the story. The entire franchise actually sets itself as there being so much grey, despite being a world with literal monsters, and titular warriors that kill the monsters to protect people. The actual effect of the story was that despite Geralt saying he would choose neither evil, was that despite that he did have to choose an evil, whether by inaction or something else, and in doing so he might have actually enabled the greater evil.

And to bring about the greatest good sometimes you are going to have to pick an evil, even side with who might look like the more obvious monster, because sometimes a man could be worse than a literal monster. To actually do the right thing, taking the centrist or easy route is only going to enable the bad guys.


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Bradleigh
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02 Sep 2021, 10:58 pm

King0fSpades wrote:
I'm not defending 'bad things'. And frankly I find it insulting if you are implying that I do.


Not saying that you are, just that sometimes things can be complicated, and if you want to not just defend something bad but allow something good, be ready for either a complicated discussion with a lot of thinking and understanding that you might have to support a "lesser evil". Or someone is going to say that you are allowing something bad.

Me? I am not sure what your stances are. And I am not going to make any judgements on whether some particular stance you have said comes from whatever level of educated on a subject, or you think a good result can be reached ideally without even doing an evil. The ends do not always justify the means.

I really have just said a bunch of things about how topics can be complicated, and something being considered politically correct or incorrect can just be a stance taken to bring about the better good and the lesser evil, and just bluntly saying that all political correctness as a rule is stupid can be a rather ignorant take. If you take that as an insult, then sorry but I haven't said anything personal or as I said above pass judgement.


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Dox47
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03 Sep 2021, 1:18 am

funeralxempire wrote:
A community that has long been treated with hostility and antagonism has many members who are intolerant of being antagonized? 8O


Moving the goalposts and special pleading. My rule is nobody is special, but everyone seems to want some sort of carve out these days because things are totally different when they do them.


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03 Sep 2021, 3:46 am

Some communities have been more maligned than others. That's a fact.

When one's identity is more often under attack, it is reasonable that they tend to react more strongly to perceived criticism.


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03 Sep 2021, 3:53 am

King0fSpades wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
What I'm saying is that political correctness is just a reflection of the Overton window. Some ideas, positions, ideals, etc will always be too outrageous to be able to be easily advocated for or defended because they're fundamentally at odds with how that society (or other group of people) views things.

If the outsider is correct about something, bitching about PC-this and PC-that won't make their case more compelling (think Copernicus and the heliocentric universe).

If the outsider is wrong complaining about political correctness might be all they have, so they'll rely on it (think Donald Trump whining about being deplatformed while using many platforms to make those complaints).


I don't think that's quite right, many of the things that will get you in trouble on social media are well within the Overton window, but extremely vocal minorities have made so much noise that they're de facto able to control the discourse despite their position being the actual outlier one. Trans issues are the poster child here, even something as mild as suggesting that some of the massive increase in young people identifying as trans or non-binary might be socially driven is enough to get you labeled as transphobic and unleash a small army poring over everything about you they can find in an attempt to destroy your life.


A community that has long been treated with hostility and antagonism has many members who are intolerant of being antagonized? 8O


But what about being intolerant of simple criticism? I'm a gay man who has been accused of being transphobic simply because I didn't think it was right when a transgender woman lied to her partner on TV and then humiliated him on Jerry Springer. I also have been shamed by the LGBTQ community because I did not think it was right for New York to ban all gay cops from attending Pride Week.


I am confused.

Are you saying that the LBGTQ community is AGAINST gay cops participating in a gay pride event?

And that the community agrees with the city for banning gay cops from participating?



Last edited by naturalplastic on 03 Sep 2021, 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

cyberdad
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03 Sep 2021, 4:05 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Why is speaking the Truth not allowed?
.


What truth do you want to speak that you can't now?



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03 Sep 2021, 4:24 am

naturalplastic wrote:
I am confused.

Are you saying that...the LGBTQ community is AGAINST gay cops attending the NYC Gay pride march?


I might not know the exact case, but I might be able to make some guesses.

Reasons might be that it confusion is a case that Pride is not necessarily synonymous with LGBTQ. Pride is about people being able to live as who they really are, that people can be LGBTQ, but also be outside of those, which has recently had some focus on race relations. There concern is within Pride about things like police brutality towards minority races, and it has reached a point where there is an increasing opinion that playing nice with the police has not worked to bring any change, rather just placated some pretty words so that something will happen again.

Thus amongst Pride there could be opinions that highlighting gay police officers in Pride only works to redeem their image. Kind of like if Pride allowed a highlight for gay literal Nazis, which might show that they are not all bad. And I suppose that is it, the ACAB (All Cop Are Bad) movement, which doesn't mean that all cops are violent racists, but the general endorsement of being a cop at this point, is a representation of things like police unions that have actively fought against social and systematic change.

Some people in Pride might no longer be willing allow the whitewashing of cops, before something is done to stop the injustices that keep on getting committed. It really isn't that confusing.


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03 Sep 2021, 4:33 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
Some communities have been more maligned than others. That's a fact.

When one's identity is more often under attack, it is reasonable that they tend to react more strongly to perceived criticism.


And?


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