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There is something wrong with "workers mentality"

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Fnord
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07 Sep 2021, 9:24 am

magz wrote:
Fnord wrote:
magz wrote:
Making unemployment illegal was tried here. It resulted in extremely poor work culture. People went to work to drink and socialize, often without doing what they were supposed to do.
Funny ... that is exactly what happened in the USSR and Cuba when the Communists took over.
Lemme see... where did Poland land after WWII? Oh, in Soviet ring of influence. No coincidence. I'm talking about these times.
People who advocate for Communism either seem to have never experienced Communism directly, or they seem to have no marketable skills to compete in a capitalist society.


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Fnord
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07 Sep 2021, 9:27 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
No, I'm saying that people should not be left on unemployment benefits with work-duty in return for their benefits. [...]
No, you said...
thinkinginpictures wrote:
That's where the government has its place: To ban employers from hiring cheap labor.
If you put some thought into what you post before you post it, your posts would not be so easy to refute.


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thinkinginpictures
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07 Sep 2021, 9:28 am

Fnord wrote:
magz wrote:
Fnord wrote:
magz wrote:
Making unemployment illegal was tried here. It resulted in extremely poor work culture. People went to work to drink and socialize, often without doing what they were supposed to do.
Funny ... that is exactly what happened in the USSR and Cuba when the Communists took over.
Lemme see... where did Poland land after WWII? Oh, in Soviet ring of influence. No coincidence. I'm talking about these times.
People who advocate for Communism either seem to have never experienced Communism directly, or they seem to have no marketable skills to compete in a capitalist society.


I never talked about communism.

You're the only ones talking about communism and accusing me of holding communist ideas.

Communism is bad, not because of its egalitarian view - but because communism implies work-duty (people who refuse work are sent to concentration camps).



magz
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07 Sep 2021, 9:31 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
I say a minimum wage of no less than $4000/month should do the work... of attracting workers.

Minimum wage of no less than $4000/month would do the work of making these $4000/month worthless. Money prone to supply-demand rules just like any other good.
Or it would stall the parts of economy where jobs of lower value than $4000/month have to be done.
Or it would feed a rich black market of illegal or semi-legal jobs below minimum wage.

Likely all of the above in some proportions.


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thinkinginpictures
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07 Sep 2021, 9:31 am

Fnord wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
No, I'm saying that people should not be left on unemployment benefits with work-duty in return for their benefits. [...]
No, you said...
thinkinginpictures wrote:
That's where the government has its place: To ban employers from hiring cheap labor.
If you put some thought into what you post before you post it, your posts would not be so easy to refute.


If employers are forced to only hire people at a high minimum wage, that means everybody will get a chance to work and feed themselves.

But right now, employers are trying to hire cheap labor, to keep wages low, while they complain about lack of workers.



magz
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07 Sep 2021, 9:34 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
If employers are forced to only hire people at a high minimum wage, that means everybody will get a chance to work and feed themselves.

No. If employers are forced to hire people at a high minimum wage, they reconsider employing them at all and reconsider doing their businesses at all.

The state can shift the equation a bit but it won't stop these mechanisms from working.


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Fnord
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07 Sep 2021, 9:35 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
I never talked about communism.
Oh, really?  What about...
thinkinginpictures wrote:
People should rise up against all types of forced labor: Conscription, work-duty, wage-slavery/cheap labor. The Means of Production should be seized by the Common People and the former employers should be tried by The People's Revolutionary Tribunal.
These are the same principles espoused by the Communist Workers' Parties in several countries and at the beginning of the Bolshevik Revolution which put Russia on the path to Communist rule.
thinkinginpictures wrote:
You're the only ones talking about communism and accusing me of holding communist ideas.
YOU presented the ideas first; we are just responding to them.
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Communism is bad, not because of its egalitarian view - but because communism implies work-duty (people who refuse work are sent to concentration camps).
The only culture in which people are rewarded for being non-productive is in a Socialist Welfare State -- is THAT what you are advocating?


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Fnord
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07 Sep 2021, 9:38 am

magz wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
If employers are forced to only hire people at a high minimum wage, that means everybody will get a chance to work and feed themselves.
No. If employers are forced to hire people at a high minimum wage, they reconsider employing them at all and reconsider doing their businesses at all.
Or just replace the workers with robots.


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magz
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07 Sep 2021, 9:39 am

Fnord wrote:
magz wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
If employers are forced to only hire people at a high minimum wage, that means everybody will get a chance to work and feed themselves.
No. If employers are forced to hire people at a high minimum wage, they reconsider employing them at all and reconsider doing their businesses at all.
Or just replace the workers with robots.
That's not that bad IMO, if robots can do the job.
I like my sweeping robot.


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Nades
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07 Sep 2021, 9:40 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Fnord wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
No, I'm saying that people should not be left on unemployment benefits with work-duty in return for their benefits. [...]
No, you said...
thinkinginpictures wrote:
That's where the government has its place: To ban employers from hiring cheap labor.
If you put some thought into what you post before you post it, your posts would not be so easy to refute.


If employers are forced to only hire people at a high minimum wage, that means everybody will get a chance to work and feed themselves.

But right now, employers are trying to hire cheap labor, to keep wages low, while they complain about lack of workers.



You'll tag the new minimum wage as a new measurement for labour equivalent. Someone making 50k a year now has a pretty good lifestyle and is probably very productive. All that making minimum wage at 50k a year does is devalue the currency as production per capita for 50k is suddenly a lot lower.

Before 50k a year might have represented a years pay for a junior doctor about to finish training (in the UK at least) or it could represent a skilled tradesman pay who regularly worked weekends. If it's the new minimum wage it just means X number of burgers flipped or tons on shelves.

All that will happen with a 50k a year minimum wage is that the people who where on 50k a year previously who you aspired to have the same lifestyle as are now on 100k a year......while people on minimum wage struggle like they always have.



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07 Sep 2021, 9:48 am

I'm advocating a Socialist Welfare State without Conscription and without Work-Duty.
This is not communism.



thinkinginpictures
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07 Sep 2021, 9:51 am

Nades wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Fnord wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
No, I'm saying that people should not be left on unemployment benefits with work-duty in return for their benefits. [...]
No, you said...
thinkinginpictures wrote:
That's where the government has its place: To ban employers from hiring cheap labor.
If you put some thought into what you post before you post it, your posts would not be so easy to refute.


If employers are forced to only hire people at a high minimum wage, that means everybody will get a chance to work and feed themselves.

But right now, employers are trying to hire cheap labor, to keep wages low, while they complain about lack of workers.



You'll tag the new minimum wage as a new measurement for labour equivalent. Someone making 50k a year now has a pretty good lifestyle and is probably very productive. All that making minimum wage at 50k a year does is devalue the currency as production per capita for 50k is suddenly a lot lower.

Before 50k a year might have represented a years pay for a junior doctor about to finish training (in the UK at least) or it could represent a skilled tradesman pay who regularly worked weekends. If it's the new minimum wage it just means X number of burgers flipped or tons on shelves.

All that will happen with a 50k a year minimum wage is that the people who where on 50k a year previously who you aspired to have the same lifestyle as are now on 100k a year......while people on minimum wage struggle like they always have.


There's no devaluation of money.
If you pay the workers a high minimum wage, those money needs to be taken from the wealthy elite, who cannot have as much money.

By your logic, the more money rich people have, the more should money be devaluated as well.

I'm merely advocating taking money from the rich and giving it to the poor. There's no shame in that opinion.



kraftiekortie
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07 Sep 2021, 9:54 am

It would be nice if society were more egalitarian......but a minimum wage of $4,000 a month would not work under present conditions.



Nades
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07 Sep 2021, 9:56 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Nades wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Fnord wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
No, I'm saying that people should not be left on unemployment benefits with work-duty in return for their benefits. [...]
No, you said...
thinkinginpictures wrote:
That's where the government has its place: To ban employers from hiring cheap labor.
If you put some thought into what you post before you post it, your posts would not be so easy to refute.


If employers are forced to only hire people at a high minimum wage, that means everybody will get a chance to work and feed themselves.

But right now, employers are trying to hire cheap labor, to keep wages low, while they complain about lack of workers.



You'll tag the new minimum wage as a new measurement for labour equivalent. Someone making 50k a year now has a pretty good lifestyle and is probably very productive. All that making minimum wage at 50k a year does is devalue the currency as production per capita for 50k is suddenly a lot lower.

Before 50k a year might have represented a years pay for a junior doctor about to finish training (in the UK at least) or it could represent a skilled tradesman pay who regularly worked weekends. If it's the new minimum wage it just means X number of burgers flipped or tons on shelves.

All that will happen with a 50k a year minimum wage is that the people who where on 50k a year previously who you aspired to have the same lifestyle as are now on 100k a year......while people on minimum wage struggle like they always have.


There's no devaluation of money.
If you pay the workers a high minimum wage, those money needs to be taken from the wealthy elite, who cannot have as much money.

By your logic, the more money rich people have, the more should money be devaluated as well.

I'm merely advocating taking money from the rich and giving it to the poor. There's no shame in that opinion.


Nope it causes inflation. Wages go up along with everyone else's and the labour needed to earn a dollar plummets. Inflation soon gets out of control and the currency devalues.

Link here.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price/wage_spiral

Secondly 50k is nuts. That's about what I make doing 55 hour weeks semi skilled. I would be off to McDonald's pretty quickly if I got the same flipping burgers.



magz
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07 Sep 2021, 9:58 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
There's no devaluation of money.
If you pay the workers a high minimum wage, those money needs to be taken from the wealthy elite, who cannot have as much money.
Wealthy elite won't be wealthy elite forever.
With this politics, it will likely disappear (stop being the wealthy elite) quite soon.
What then?

thinkinginpictures wrote:
By your logic, the more money rich people have, the more should money be devaluated as well.
The more money on the market, the less valuable it is. Supply-demand-price equilibrium.
Also, workers' wages are in prices of products.

thinkinginpictures wrote:
I'm merely advocating taking money from the rich and giving it to the poor. There's no shame in that opinion.
No shame. In small, caucious doses, it can even work a bit.
If implemented radically, it just ends with everyone becoming poor.


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07 Sep 2021, 10:04 am

You need to take taxation into account.

The more money the workers earn, the more taxes the workers pay. The state gets more wealthy.