There is something wrong with "workers mentality"
07 Sep 2021, 10:09 am
thinkinginpictures wrote:
You need to take taxation into account.
The more money the workers earn, the more taxes the workers pay. The state gets more wealthy.
The more money the workers earn, the more taxes the workers pay. The state gets more wealthy.
But the problem is that they're not earning it. They just make two dollars instead of one for the same productivity. The money will just have half the spending power and the situation will never change.
If someone wants the same lifestyle as an accountant then they need to earn it somehow. They can't just be given the money in a weird Robin hood free for all.
07 Sep 2021, 10:11 am
thinkinginpictures wrote:
You need to take taxation into account. The more money the workers earn, the more taxes the workers pay. The State gets more wealthy.
That is called "Socialism". Are you advocating for Socialism?
_________________
07 Sep 2021, 10:15 am
Fnord wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
You need to take taxation into account. The more money the workers earn, the more taxes the workers pay. The State gets more wealthy.
That is called "Socialism". Are you advocating for Socialism?I'm advocating Welfare Socialism, yes.
Private companies allowed, but high taxation and high wages + generous social benefits.
This has worked in Denmark in many, many years. In-fact it has worked for decades - until some people disagreed with it. But it worked out quite well. No reason to change what's already working. If it works, don't fix it.
07 Sep 2021, 10:19 am
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Fnord wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
You need to take taxation into account. The more money the workers earn, the more taxes the workers pay. The State gets more wealthy.
That is called "Socialism". Are you advocating for Socialism?That which government does not own it controls with regulation. The creation of a business will require all sorts of permits and approvals. If the applicant happens to be a foreigner, the procedure will require years. Bureaucratic procedures will become so complex and uncertain that there will evolve a new profession of "experts" who, for a fee, will handle them. No citizen would think of processing his own retirement application, or attempting to register a new car. An expert who knows all the forms and procedures is hired to do it instead. Importing, exporting, and manufacturing will require lengthy bureaucratic approval procedures. The delays will be long that the original product may be obsolete by the time approvals are granted.
_________________
07 Sep 2021, 10:22 am
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Fnord wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
You need to take taxation into account. The more money the workers earn, the more taxes the workers pay. The State gets more wealthy.
That is called "Socialism". Are you advocating for Socialism?I'm advocating Welfare Socialism, yes.
Private companies allowed, but high taxation and high wages + generous social benefits.
This has worked in Denmark in many, many years. In-fact it has worked for decades - until some people disagreed with it. But it worked out quite well. No reason to change what's already working. If it works, don't fix it.
Denmark is not socialist. It's a high tax state which allows private enterprise. Many Danes think their taxes are stupid too.
You're proposing the wealth being plundered from companies and individuals. They will own companies and property in all but name. The only time when someone will own a business in your ideal nation is when the government comes to collect taxes and bills need to be paid. When it comes to profit the owners seem to own nothing "What business?????? You have a business??????" Fingers in ears, lalalala."Oh yeah, about that tax you need to pay for company profts........."
07 Sep 2021, 10:41 am
If taxes get too high in a country that a wealthy person lives in, she or he is very likely to vote with their feet and move to some other country where they aren't taxed as heavily. I live in Finland, where the taxes are high, and that's one of our society's main problems today: highly skilled people leave the country because they get far more money for their demanding work in other countries where they don't have to pay as much taxes, like the USA.
Of course, our high taxes make school (technically) free ´till ninth grade and this year secondary education became free for first timers born in 2005 (I think it was) and after. Going to university is cheaper too 'cause tax money is used to those, so people here have more equal chances at success. Medical care isn't free, but again, thanks to high taxes, it's way cheaper than in most countries.
Of course, the people who get most use out of any of these are the low earning people and the ones who need a lot of medical care. If you're a high earning and perfectly able bodied, you pay for more than you get... though of course, if they suddenly hit the rock bottom due to illness or something, the society would (in theory) be there to catch them. Honestly, it's no wonder so many people want to live elsewhere.
07 Sep 2021, 10:57 am
Fireblossom wrote:
Of course, our high taxes make school (technically) free ´till ninth grade and this year secondary education became free for first timers born in 2005 (I think it was) and after. Going to university is cheaper too 'cause tax money is used to those, so people here have more equal chances at success. Medical care isn't free, but again, thanks to high taxes, it's way cheaper than in most countries.
Here, education up to university level is state-funded (or you can pay for private ed which is posh for lower education and mainly a way to legally buy a diploma at college level), medical care is state-funded (you can mix it with private appointments to avoid waiting lists) and taxes are high but the economy is pretty resilient - neither financial crises nor covid disrupted it as much as I hear from other countries.
The main problem are, currently, shortages of people to work in education and healthcare and making it political in the public dispute.
_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.
<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>
08 Sep 2021, 5:01 pm
Fnord wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
You need to take taxation into account. The more money the workers earn, the more taxes the workers pay. The State gets more wealthy.
That is called "Socialism". Are you advocating for Socialism?No it's not. Under capitol "S" Socialism, the collective (usually the state) owns all the industry. If the state already owns the industry, they just use the money they make to pay people. There's no need for taxes. Taxing the rich isn't communism. It's what every modern state does.
08 Sep 2021, 5:03 pm
NoClearMind53 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
You need to take taxation into account. The more money the workers earn, the more taxes the workers pay. The State gets more wealthy.
That is called "Socialism". Are you advocating for Socialism?_________________
08 Sep 2021, 5:09 pm
magz wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
There's no devaluation of money.
If you pay the workers a high minimum wage, those money needs to be taken from the wealthy elite, who cannot have as much money.
Wealthy elite won't be wealthy elite forever.If you pay the workers a high minimum wage, those money needs to be taken from the wealthy elite, who cannot have as much money.
With this politics, it will likely disappear (stop being the wealthy elite) quite soon.
What then?
The wealthy elite don't sit on piles of cash. They own assets. Their assets don't go away unless they're either 1.) destroyed or 2.) sold to others. The tendency has been for fewer and fewer people to own more and more assets. Rather than work a normal job, they use their mass of assets to obtain cash. Things like recessions and pandemics keep making the problem worse.
Quote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
I'm merely advocating taking money from the rich and giving it to the poor. There's no shame in that opinion.
No shame. In small, caucious doses, it can even work a bit.If implemented radically, it just ends with everyone becoming poor.
Yep. At this point all it does is counter the tendency of the rich to obtain more and more. As it is now, it barely makes a dent. We are hardly anywhere near "radical redistribution". The rich are good at avoiding taxes altogether, and they pay the politicians bribes to keep it that way forever.
08 Sep 2021, 5:19 pm
Fnord wrote:
NoClearMind53 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
You need to take taxation into account. The more money the workers earn, the more taxes the workers pay. The State gets more wealthy.
That is called "Socialism". Are you advocating for Socialism?Anyone can call themselves socialist. It doesn't mean they've actually created a socialist economy. Was FDR socialist? People in the US have a habit of calling everything socialist or communist as a scare-tactic. I'm not advocating for or against. I just wish people would stop using words in a misleading way. If you want to use the capital "S", stick to the old-school Marxist definition (the one where the collective of workers owns the entire means of production). Stop labelling forms of social democracy that heavily tax the rich "Socialism".
08 Sep 2021, 5:29 pm
Fireblossom wrote:
If taxes get too high in a country that a wealthy person lives in, she or he is very likely to vote with their feet and move to some other country where they aren't taxed as heavily. I live in Finland, where the taxes are high, and that's one of our society's main problems today: highly skilled people leave the country because they get far more money for their demanding work in other countries where they don't have to pay as much taxes, like the USA.
Of course, our high taxes make school (technically) free ´till ninth grade and this year secondary education became free for first timers born in 2005 (I think it was) and after. Going to university is cheaper too 'cause tax money is used to those, so people here have more equal chances at success. Medical care isn't free, but again, thanks to high taxes, it's way cheaper than in most countries.
Of course, the people who get most use out of any of these are the low earning people and the ones who need a lot of medical care. If you're a high earning and perfectly able bodied, you pay for more than you get... though of course, if they suddenly hit the rock bottom due to illness or something, the society would (in theory) be there to catch them. Honestly, it's no wonder so many people want to live elsewhere.
Of course, our high taxes make school (technically) free ´till ninth grade and this year secondary education became free for first timers born in 2005 (I think it was) and after. Going to university is cheaper too 'cause tax money is used to those, so people here have more equal chances at success. Medical care isn't free, but again, thanks to high taxes, it's way cheaper than in most countries.
Of course, the people who get most use out of any of these are the low earning people and the ones who need a lot of medical care. If you're a high earning and perfectly able bodied, you pay for more than you get... though of course, if they suddenly hit the rock bottom due to illness or something, the society would (in theory) be there to catch them. Honestly, it's no wonder so many people want to live elsewhere.
I don't think well-paid professionals should be the most heavily taxed. People who make loads of passive income should be taxed. Even Adam Smith criticized landlords.
09 Sep 2021, 1:34 am
NoClearMind53 wrote:
magz wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
There's no devaluation of money.
If you pay the workers a high minimum wage, those money needs to be taken from the wealthy elite, who cannot have as much money.
Wealthy elite won't be wealthy elite forever.If you pay the workers a high minimum wage, those money needs to be taken from the wealthy elite, who cannot have as much money.
With this politics, it will likely disappear (stop being the wealthy elite) quite soon.
What then?
The wealthy elite don't sit on piles of cash. They own assets. Their assets don't go away unless they're either 1.) destroyed or 2.) sold to others. The tendency has been for fewer and fewer people to own more and more assets. Rather than work a normal job, they use their mass of assets to obtain cash. Things like recessions and pandemics keep making the problem worse.
Quote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
I'm merely advocating taking money from the rich and giving it to the poor. There's no shame in that opinion.
No shame. In small, caucious doses, it can even work a bit.If implemented radically, it just ends with everyone becoming poor.
Yep. At this point all it does is counter the tendency of the rich to obtain more and more. As it is now, it barely makes a dent. We are hardly anywhere near "radical redistribution". The rich are good at avoiding taxes altogether, and they pay the politicians bribes to keep it that way forever.
Yip it's usually the case that the wealthy are cash poor and asset rich. The problem is where does the cutoff pont end from being a normal folk to a wealthy elite? Sadly, if the general attitudes of woke left are anything to go by, the cutoff point is a lot lower than most realise.
09 Sep 2021, 2:40 am
NoClearMind53 wrote:
magz wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
There's no devaluation of money.
If you pay the workers a high minimum wage, those money needs to be taken from the wealthy elite, who cannot have as much money.
Wealthy elite won't be wealthy elite forever.If you pay the workers a high minimum wage, those money needs to be taken from the wealthy elite, who cannot have as much money.
With this politics, it will likely disappear (stop being the wealthy elite) quite soon.
What then?
The wealthy elite don't sit on piles of cash. They own assets. Their assets don't go away unless they're either 1.) destroyed or 2.) sold to others.
NoClearMind53 wrote:
The tendency has been for fewer and fewer people to own more and more assets. Rather than work a normal job, they use their mass of assets to obtain cash. Things like recessions and pandemics keep making the problem worse.
We live in different parts of the world, with different histories of the last 100 years, so we know two different ways things can become unhealthy.My country doesn't have much of "wealthy elite" the way you describe it. However, we still remember how too much socialism can end in empty shelves and worthless money.
_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.
<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>
09 Sep 2021, 3:34 am
magz wrote:
NoClearMind53 wrote:
magz wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
There's no devaluation of money.
If you pay the workers a high minimum wage, those money needs to be taken from the wealthy elite, who cannot have as much money.
Wealthy elite won't be wealthy elite forever.If you pay the workers a high minimum wage, those money needs to be taken from the wealthy elite, who cannot have as much money.
With this politics, it will likely disappear (stop being the wealthy elite) quite soon.
What then?
The wealthy elite don't sit on piles of cash. They own assets. Their assets don't go away unless they're either 1.) destroyed or 2.) sold to others.
NoClearMind53 wrote:
The tendency has been for fewer and fewer people to own more and more assets. Rather than work a normal job, they use their mass of assets to obtain cash. Things like recessions and pandemics keep making the problem worse.
We live in different parts of the world, with different histories of the last 100 years, so we know two different ways things can become unhealthy.My country doesn't have much of "wealthy elite" the way you describe it. However, we still remember how too much socialism can end in empty shelves and worthless money.
And No5 is that once company directors lose control over a business after a state decides it can help itself to its profits, there is a huge financial route of panicking investors pulling their money out of the nation. If companies can be plundered at the whims of a state, all financial credibility of that state is lost.
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