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babybird
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06 Oct 2021, 10:56 am

I've noticed sometimes that on the forums some people get preoccupied with semantics and the conversation gets derailed into an argument about what one person has inferred and what their opinion is on what they believe the other person has implied in their post.

I sometimes find this to be more interesting than the original topic.

Am I using the word semantics correctly for this topic?

Does anyone else notice this?

Is this a common reason for thread derailment?

Is thread derailment generally intended or is it a case of a misunderstanding between what is inferred and what is implied?



Mr Reynholm
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06 Oct 2021, 11:29 am

I have noticed this. Many definitions seem to be inferred.



funeralxempire
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06 Oct 2021, 12:16 pm

People sometimes define jargon terms differently, beyond that some of us are prone to reading jargon terms literally.

Also, there's posters who will rely on the fact the above occurs unintentionally to be dishonest and purposely shift definitions in hopes no one else will notice.


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Fnord
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06 Oct 2021, 12:19 pm

babybird wrote:
... Is thread derailment generally intended or is it a case of a misunderstanding between what is inferred and what is implied?
Deliberate thread derailment seems to be a common tactic among those who know they have already lost the argument.



babybird
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06 Oct 2021, 12:52 pm

Fnord wrote:
babybird wrote:
... Is thread derailment generally intended or is it a case of a misunderstanding between what is inferred and what is implied?
Deliberate thread derailment seems to be a common tactic among those who know they have already lost the argument.


Yes I'll look put for that one.



kraftiekortie
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06 Oct 2021, 2:37 pm

Semantics is the meaning of words, in basic terms.

"Inference" and "implication" are more than the mere meaning of words, to me.

The science of discerning "inference" and "implication" is known as "formal semantics."



Mr Reynholm
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06 Oct 2021, 2:52 pm

Often times things are assumed to be synonyms when in fact they are linked only by the readers own preconceptions.



naturalplastic
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06 Oct 2021, 3:26 pm

Mr Reynholm wrote:
I have noticed this. Many definitions seem to be inferred.


Including...the definition of the word "infer" itself. Folks today wrongly infer what the word infer means. And its annoying.

To "infer" means to "find clues" or to "figure something out". Newton inferred the laws of Gravity from seeing an apple fall from a tree (or thats the story).

To "imply" means "to lay something between the lines", or "to say something without directly stating it".

If the person speaking to you implies something then they expect you to infer what they are implying.

But folks today constantly confuse the two words and wrongly use "infer" to mean "imply".

No less than our current vice president did that at a congressional hearing.



Kamala does a masterful job of nailing Barr to the wall and making him squirm, but...she meant "hinted, implied...". NOT "hinted, inferred...". DAMN! Sour note on the piano! Lol!



aghogday
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06 Oct 2021, 3:56 pm



Words Are Used in Meaning As Metaphor

Differently, Depending on the Context of

What The Intent of the Message Is...

On A Website Where the

Very Nature of 'the

Condition' Lends

Problems for Some Folks

Understanding Metaphor this way;

The Simple Solution is to Clarify And Validate Communication;

Instead of Being too Dam Lazy to Learn Something New in Life Now...

Or Even More Ignorantly, Suggest that Something Doesn't Make Sense, Just Because

'You' Don't Understand it...

That's No Way to Enhance One's Human Potentials in Life... One Will Expect to See A Lot

of Clarification and Validation in Communication

On Sites for Folks On the Autism

Spectrum, if The Discussion is

Civil And Patient Enough; And

Wanting to Further Human Potential, Overall;

And Yes, it Seems Some Folks Intentionally Act
Obtuse, Just to try to prove they are correct; Yet,
My Issue is not Problems With Metaphors; So Perhaps,

They Really Don't Understand, All Literal And Restricted As Such.

Never the Less,

Rationally
At Least,

Don't Put the
Blame on Someone
Who Doesn't Have 'the Issue'...

And It is NOT NORMAL TO DISCUSS
PHILOSOPHY Without using Very DEEP Metaphors;

Unless Ya wanna discuss it in Shallow Ways; That Takes
Away the Whole Greater Meanings And Purposes... Yes,

Obviously

Politics

Will Be
VERY SHALLOW, I.E. TRUMP...

And Some Folks Like to Insist
That There is No Mystical Deeper

More Holistic Parts Whole of Religion to Discuss Either;

Hehe, Yet that's What Philosophy is For, to See Another View...

To See

Another

Metaphor

For What

Existence

And Reality Even Is...

Elementary Dear Watson;

Yet Very Complex And Deep Dear 'Sherlock' too...

i Enjoy Being Challenged By People i Do Not Understand

And i Wish Those Folks Would Come Along More Often too..

On This Site They Occasionally Do; When They Do, i Rejoice

And Literally Thinking Folks Do Come in Handy in Many Ways too...

Like Repairing My Car By The Manual; And Perhaps Heart Surgery, if i ever Need that too..

Yet This isn't A Car Repair Shop or A Hospital; It Is A Forum For Discussing More Metaphorical Existence Stuff;

And If Some Folks Want to Limit It to Car Repair Mentality Only; More Power to THEM too; As They so Will too...

Yet
not me...



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Blue_Star
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06 Oct 2021, 4:05 pm

Most people can't manage to keep fewer & less, you're & your, or can & may straight. Why would we expect them to get imply & infer when they are incapable of getting the little things that are easier correct?

eta: Oh yeah, also who & whom. :sigh:



Fnord
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06 Oct 2021, 4:16 pm

Blue_Star wrote:
Most people can't manage to keep fewer & less, you're & your, or can & may straight. Why would we expect them to get imply & infer when they are incapable of getting the little things that are easier correct?

eta: Oh yeah, also who & whom. :sigh:
Anyone who paid attention in high school English class would know the difference.

(Also: Literal / Practical / Virtual; Decimate / Devastate; Rationality / Rationalization; and Cure / Treatment / Vaccine.)



DeepHour
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07 Oct 2021, 2:39 am

naturalplastic wrote:



To "infer" means to "find clues" or to "figure something out". Newton inferred the laws of Gravity from seeing an apple fall from a tree (or thats the story).

To "imply" means "to lay something between the lines", or "to say something without directly stating it".

If the person speaking to you implies something then they expect you to infer what they are implying.

But folks today constantly confuse the two words and wrongly use "infer" to mean "imply".




In fact, 'Infer' and 'Imply' in a sense have opposite meanings.


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League_Girl
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07 Oct 2021, 2:04 pm

babybird wrote:
I've noticed sometimes that on the forums some people get preoccupied with semantics and the conversation gets derailed into an argument about what one person has inferred and what their opinion is on what they believe the other person has implied in their post.

I sometimes find this to be more interesting than the original topic.

Am I using the word semantics correctly for this topic?

Does anyone else notice this?

Is this a common reason for thread derailment?

Is thread derailment generally intended or is it a case of a misunderstanding between what is inferred and what is implied?



I've noticed it on forums in general especially on Reddit. To me why does it even matter how it was said when it's clear what they meant. For example, a man said he helps out with the kids and people got all hung out on "helping out" and it didn't matter if he was doing his share of the parenting so she could go out and have fun so he got off work early to be home by six. But however, this man was incompetent as a dad and didn't put them to bed and didn't really feed them other than pretzels for dinner so of course his wife was mad and his excuse was "you should have told me what was expected, I'm not a kind reader." I mean really? Does he not know how to parent and he acted like a baby sitter lol. But luckily it was a s**t post because I found it hard to believe someone can be that stupid after having kids for ten years. But still people were all hung up on "helping out" and that s**t always annoys me. I even bed if he were not a incompetent dad and it was a genuine post and his wife still got mad at him over trivial things, people would have still gotten hung up on the words.

I also think NTs do this on purpose just to argue and be right and to discredit you or because they don't like you so they do it to troll you. I am not saying people with neuordivergent don't do it too, I am sure all humans do. People also do it as a joke but there is difference doing it for humor and doing it for an argument and to discredit someone or to find an excuse to not listen to them. Kids do this as part of testing their limits. "You told me to go to bed but you didn't say I needed to go to sleep." People may also do it as part of malicious compliance when the person is being unreasonable so they do exactly as they say to make a point. I am fine with that part. Be an ass, get treated like one.


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07 Oct 2021, 2:19 pm

I know that. You know that. They apparently weren't awake for those lessons in elementary, let alone in middle or high school.

Fnord wrote:
Anyone who paid attention in high school English class would know the difference.

(Also: Literal / Practical / Virtual; Decimate / Devastate; Rationality / Rationalization; and Cure / Treatment / Vaccine.)



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07 Oct 2021, 6:15 pm

yes, all of it and also: language is difficult.
a hundred years ago, the Mathematician Ludwig Wittgenstein wrote a book about it - he was convinced that language had certain limits - but within those limits, anything could be expressed with utter clarity.
He then returned to maths, only to write another book late in life in which he completely contradicted his previous thesis and stated that language is like a game - and like a game, it only works if we're playing by the same rules.
Sadly, the rules are never explicit, and basically, every person is on their own,making their own rules and trying to navigate through language games with others, not knowing what rules they play by.

one person's compliment is another person's veiled insult.


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07 Oct 2021, 8:49 pm

I find it jarring hearing folks misuse a word that it would seem to me that they should know.

For example a certain person on a certain website spoke at length about a certain treatment being offered by the British National Health. But the said thing had been shown to be too flawed to be implemented. So he concluded by saying "so the program is useless".

Except he didnt say "useless". He said "so the program is redundant".

He went out of his way...to sound illiterate...just because "redundant" is apparently a vogue word to use in the UK.

Trouble is that "redundant" doesnt mean "useless". Its like saying red when you mean blue.

Number one: you can break words down to figure out what they mean. The word "re...dun...dant" SOUNDS like it means "something that is a redo of something else". And thats exactly what it DOES mean...for chrissakes!

Second -everyone in the English speaking world constantly hears the word "redundant" used correctly. Newscasters constantly tell us about how "this submarine has many redundant systems", and how "the International space station has redundant systems", and how "passenger jets have many redundant systems". Jet airliners have duplicate and triplicate systems as emergency backups. They are not "useless" systems. They are functioning systems( electric, electronic, hydrollic, computer, etc) that are duplicates in case of emergency.

If this therapy system offered by the National Health were perfectly good, BUT the National Health already had had another perfectly good system already in place that didnt need to be replaced that did the same thing, THEN it would be correct to say that the new thing is "redundant". But no such thing was in place. So the new thing was not be a redo of anything. So it couldnt be "redundant".
.....

My guess... lotsa folks in the UK loose their jobs- and loose their jobs to either automation, or to foreign competition. And when they loose their jobs- they are told by officialdom that "you have just been rendered redundant". Redundant being used correctly to mean "what you do for a living is now a duplication of what someone/something else now does". Either automation, or foreign competition. We now can get the widgets you used to make at the factory from robots, or from brown skinned children working for slave wages in the third world. But the folks loosing the said jobs take it the wrong way, and maybe folks in the UK have come to take the word "redundant" to mean "useless". So its become a vogue word, but that gets used incorrectly.