Whole Self-Relation
if there are separate things, then they cannot interact, by definition, because they are separate.
if there are not separate things, they still cannot interact because they are just different parts of the same thing.
causality is incoherent.
the appearance of change is simply difference throughout a whole. difference is not the same as separation.
difference is relative variation, separation is independent origination and nature.
difference is coherent and it is a fundamental expression of reality. separation is incoherent and it is not real.
just as up and down can only exist in relation to each other and their midpoint, all things are patterns of self-relational difference. when self relates to self, a semi-permeable membrane of association exists between the considerations.
the semi-permeable membrane between up and down is the plane of the observer. the semi-permeable membrane is an X shape when left and right are added. we are at 2D. step into 3D with forward and backward and suddenly the semi-permeable membrane is a double inverted cone structure (think an X shape that is rotated around the vertical axis).
this is the fundamental core structure of the torus.
step further into dimensionality and suddenly the opening of the up cone leads back to the opening of the bottom cone, thus the true torus emerges..
within these structures of self-relational necessity you find the point, the bubble, the direction, the current, the galactic plane, the fountain or jet, the magnetic field, etc..
o ~ w
the 6 ways that make the 12 moves that make the 24 wave lay in emptiness so empty that it can fall into itself.
the eye seed of perfect nothing sees itself infinity.
so the seed is the flower and the tree. it be.
beware the cult of Fear Of Fear that compulsively seeks to feel in control, the parent of agriculture, the parent of industry, the parent of government, the parents of institution, the parent of lies.
how much innocence does it take to admit fear and sadness?
By what definition? Seems to me that separate things interact all the time.
causality is incoherent.
Why can't different parts of the same thing interact? Seems to me that happens all the time also.
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If my fingers are separate things, then they cannot interact, by definition, because they are separate.
If there are not separate things such as my fingers, they still cannot interact because they are just different parts of the same thing; Me.
If i am incoherent. It is because human language is imprecise, amorphous and not fit to describe quantum realities.
_________________
AQ: 27 Diagnosis:High functioning (just on the cusp of normal.) IQ:131 (somewhat inflated result but ego-flattering) DNA:XY Location: UK. Eyes: Blue. Hair: Brown. Height:6'1 Celebrity I most resemble: Tom hardy. Favorite Band: The Doors. Personality: uhhm ....(what can i say...we asd people are strange)
by the definition of being separate. it's not hard to understand. interact is just an inaccurate description of what exists. nothing ever interacts, you are just calling phenomena interaction, and I am clarifying that the word interact is inappropriate. your fingers can't interact, just like you and another person can't interact.
causality is simply not a real idea. it never has been. it is an empty imagining of origination.
all subjectivity is objective. that doesn't mean all subjectivity is the same, it just means that every different perspective is necessary as what it is and it is not defined by anything. all relativity is absolute.
Truly Refreshing to Hear A "Whole Self-Relation",
More Mystical Philosophy Associated With Quantum Mechanics
On A Website That Discusses Philosophy, Politics, And Religion.
In General, One May Expect Folks More Restricted to Left Brain Processes
Will Be More Apt to Categorize Existence Dualistically Versus More of A Mystical
"Whole Self-Relation" As the Op Here Eloquently Describes in Poetry, A Metaphor i Love
To Use that Both Expresses The 'Circle of Life' And 'The Whole of Existence' is the Leaf Feeds
the Tree
And The
Seed; So the
Tree And the Seed and
The Leaf Are One; Perhaps More
of An Easy Trinity to Understand Than
The Father and Son And Holy Ghost Are
One; However, the Metaphor "The Father And i
Are One" is Easier to Understand By that Original
Religious Book Script, if One Understand The Father Is the
Whole and
The Son
Is A Fractal of the
Whole as in this Way
We Are Leaf, Seed, And Tree
That is One As Well; And as Carl Sagan
So Simply Relates, "We Are All Connected", From
The Stars Above to the Particles That Orbit Nucleuses
And the Empty Space Spread As Far Within the Orbits As
The Planets, Stars, And Galaxies Above With Dark Space Holding
All of Existence
Together
This Way
MaKinG LiGHT
And Life Possible For Us All
To Be The All in All Now For Real;
Our DNA Holding Our Life Stories in every Cell
(Some Chapters Left Unexplored By Us as Well)
This Way too; True, Nature is More Beautiful Than
Just A Word in A Book And Poetry May Be Required to Describe
The Beauty
of the All in
All that Truly
Makes All Dark Thru LiGHT Love
For The Miracle of Our Existence Now,
Where No Part May Be Truly Separated
From the Beginning That Never Ends or
Finishes as the Start of Eternal Now Altogether New;
There Are Unlimited Ways to Describe The Essence Whole; And The Illusions
of Separation Folks Hold As "Gospel" Truth And Chosen Separate From the
Rest are Just As Real to Them
As Hallucinations
As the Reality
Others See;
So Yes,
Truth is Relative,
Depending on How Large
The Small of Existence One
Comes to See So Separated
Or The Center oF iT All; The All In All We aRe...
True, Some Folks Will Understand this in their Own
Identifiable Ways, Differently, Through Eyes Like Carl Sagan;
The Story of Buddha; The Story of Jesus; The Story of Krishna;
What Rumi, A Mystic Sufi Relates; What Iain McGilchrist, A Brain Researcher,
Literature Professor, And Psychiatrist Relates; What Richard Rohr, A Franciscan
Catholic Monk Relates As Well; The Leaf Is The Tree And The Seed, The Separation Folks See
Is Their Illusion
of Reality
And The
Whole of the All In All
Is the Place Others Only
Find As Unity And Love For
All DarK Thru LiGHT As Their Reality too...
Obviously, As Human Beings, For Order, We Must
Sort, Label, And Count Our Reality For Order Out of
What Might Otherwise Seem As Overall Chaos to Fear;
Yet True,
How Close
'We' aRe (me) to the
All in All, When We (me) Understand
We aRe Eternally Now the Leaf, The Tree, And The Seed
As We aRe Surely Star Dust From Super Nova Explosions
Resurrecting Still From The Crucible Fire of those Events;
Iron From that Gaseous Dust Flowing in our
Blood Stream, Same As Core of Earth;
Atoms From Various
Star Systems
Comprising
Who We aRe Still Now
As Star FLoWeRS Bursting
And Star Seeds Still Resurrecting
As the Peace We Inhale and Love
We Exhale Now or Some Illusion that
Is Less Than the Whole of the Miracle That We Even Exist;
Yet You See These Words i Relate As The Whole of the All in All
Is Just one
View of
A Fractal of The All;
Yet It's True, the All And i Is one
And Sure That All includes You
And The Rest of Existence As Well...
i Suppose One May Describe That As
'God' If They See ALL As A Three Letter Word Will Be;
For Other Folks, It's Just An Empty Shell on a Beach to
Worship With Three Letters, Missing Parts of the Leaf, Seed, And Tree...
And Again That Illusion
Is As Real to them
As the Reality
i Perceive
Where
No Separation Exists...
They Still Breathe And So Do i...
However, Most Always i Breathe
By Inhaling Peace And Exhaling Love
For i Understand Just How Very Special
i Am And The Rest of Existence Who i am As Well...
It's A Miracle
Worth Living
And Dying For to
me; Yet Like The Leaf,
i Shall Feed The Tree and Seed,
As Long As i Exist In this Form And Essence at Least...
Typically, Quantum Mechanics Understands My View of Reality
And What i Call As 'The Metaphor of God' As A Cross-Culturally
Understood Relatable Term At Least, Than All the Religions that
(As Interpreted
From the Pulpit
In Dualistic
Categorical
Labeled Ways)
i Visit in my
Local Area
That Include the Word
'God'; However, When We
Sing Together The Tune
Sounds Identical to me;
Yet It's True i Hear the
MuSiC of the All In All
In Every Voice
That
Is Mine
And THeir's
The Same And This
iS How We May Ascend
And Transcend Our Illusions
of Separation Through The Oldest Simplest
Ways of Dancing And Singing Freely Together in Tune
of the
MuSiC
of the All
in All As Dance
Brings Song From
DarK to LiGHT Evermorenow...
Not Surprising the Farther East i Go
With Words Like this Where Folks are
Raised in Religions And Philosophies that
Do Not Separate themselves from the Whole;
These Words Will Be Treasure to their More Right
Brained Processes of Mind; Whereas, a Left Brain
More Black and White, Tall or Short, Dualistic
Thinker Will Only See it Ironically
As Word
Salad
And Empty
Shells on the Beach;
All they Will Be Missing
Is the Sea Creature, i Breathe Alive and Real...
What is My Advantage In Such A Dualistic
Thinking Culture; It's Pretty Obvious.
i Didn't Speak Until 4 Years-Old,
So i Had
A Few
Years to
See Without
Words of Speak
That Reduce the
World to Symbols
Folks Worship Separate
From the All In All Eternally Now...
Yawn, It took me Long Years and
Decades to Return to What i Understood at Age 3...
Poetry Through the Ages is Truly Gold as it Does Provide
Helpful Hints...
Quantum
Physics
Removes
Veils oF iGNoRaNCE as well
By Original Greek Definition
We Do LiVE iN An Apocalyptic World NoW iNDeeD...
Yet We Better Remember The All In All When We Forget
The Folks Who Are Us Around the World Wear The Same
Mutations of A Virus That
Will Spread
to Us Without
Regard to Different Forms of
Philosophy, Politics, or Religion
That Provide An Illusion We Are Separate Somehow...
Oh, What the Leaf Teaches the Tree And Seed For THere is No 'Real' Separation...
Yet on The Other Hand, Illusions Are As Real as Any Reality For Folks We Come To Breathe
We Come
To Breathe
We Do Breathe
And When We Inhale
Peace And Exhale Love
Generally Speaking We Rest in Peace Alive...
So Really It Comes Down And Up to How We Dance
And Sing Together Free As Peace And Love or Less
And Nah, i Don't Have to Be A Member of 'YouR' Choir
to Do This Either
With SMiLes...
Yet
i STiLL AM;
Anyway, Yes, Don't
Let Smaller Views
Scare You Out of the All
As It's True What Illudes
ITself As Separate TEnds to Do...
For On 'The Other Hand', It's All Love
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Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !
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Last edited by aghogday on 28 Nov 2021, 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
consider that the dimensionality of time is part of reality. it is not something separate nor independent, that doesn't even make sense. the appearance of change is difference across time, but this is not a true example of change. all differences are necessarily as they are in their particular relation with the rest of the whole.
when you experience a fruit fall from its tree, the pattern of the fruit occupies a different location, related to the location you saw it previously, in each moment of time. the sequential experience of differences from an incomplete observation (a human experience) appears to be a process of development, but truly it is not. it is just an expression of what must be in that part of reality. there was no beginning, there is no end, there is no origin. there is only relational patterns of the emptiness so empty that it can fall into itself, which is identical to the fullness so full that it returns to itself.
aghogday, I didn't see your reply until after posting my last one.
I don't fully understand all of what you're trying to convey, but I do agree that the misunderstandings are real as misunderstandings; that the illusions are real as illusions in people's experience. that said, it is still necessary for those who see them as misunderstandings and want to present an alternative that is more accurate to be that, to express that alternative. it does not originate change, but it is possible that being this will be in relation to a difference in local humanity towards accuracy. or maybe that won't be here.
anyway...
Dao De Jing: 1 -
道可道,非常道。名可名,非常名。
無名天地之始;有名萬物之母。
故常無欲,以觀其妙;常有欲,以觀其徼。
此兩者,同出而異名,同謂之玄。
玄之又玄,衆妙之門。
Derek Lin's translation:
"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
Thus, constantly free of desire
One observes its wonders
Constantly filled with desire
One observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders"
I would suggest that perhaps the wording may be more precise if it was translated as
"The Tao that can be spoken is not the fundamental Tao,
The name that can be named is not a fundamental name.
The nameless is the truth of Fundamental Reality and Personal Experience,
The named is what gives rise to myriad things.
Thus, constantly without pull
ONE observes its mystery.
Constantly with pull
one observes its manifestations.
These two emerge together but differ in name,
The unity is said to be the mystery.
Mystery of mysteries, the door to All."
From Scientists to Mystics to Everyday people. I think that's something we can all agree on.
99.9999999% of your readers head hurts from reading this thread. I'm willing to bet. I think that's something we can all agree on.
Density of words only occludes understanding when trying to convey information effectively in linguistic communication between sentient biological systems operating on the same experiential frequency bandwidth. I think that's something we can all agree on.
_________________
AQ: 27 Diagnosis:High functioning (just on the cusp of normal.) IQ:131 (somewhat inflated result but ego-flattering) DNA:XY Location: UK. Eyes: Blue. Hair: Brown. Height:6'1 Celebrity I most resemble: Tom hardy. Favorite Band: The Doors. Personality: uhhm ....(what can i say...we asd people are strange)
I don't have the capacity to change myself to fit how you want me to be. Maybe you should go talk to neurotypicals if that's what you're looking for. I selected my language with intention and I do not think it is unreasonable or difficult to understand if it is given real attention. This isn't a casual topic to distract from stress.
Assumed i want you to be a certain way, totally assumption on your part, intro-pshyic machinations at work. I had no such thoughts enter my consciousness. I think that might be the the subjectivity of two different observers, demonstrated in real life , as indicated by quantum physic experiments.
I detect a defensive tone. stubbornness of position, is not a strength by the way. inflexibility is weakness. a quote a bout bamboo sticks come to mind, but i cant quite remember the details. I think i might have heard bruce lee say it; but I digress.
I randomly generate words spontaneously and let them fall where they may. We all have our styles of communication, and mine can get quite verbose. But i was just saying if communication is what you want (aka transfering of infomation) you method is highly ineffective. I have taken into consideration your point about diluting your message but deemed it irrelevant, for why post something if you don't care if it is accessible to people, if only for egoistic self gratification, and to sit back and admire your own intellect. Question, do you think you are special? that you are superior type of being?
Ah yes dopamine, we all slaves to it. yes Cortisol is Bad also.
_________________
AQ: 27 Diagnosis:High functioning (just on the cusp of normal.) IQ:131 (somewhat inflated result but ego-flattering) DNA:XY Location: UK. Eyes: Blue. Hair: Brown. Height:6'1 Celebrity I most resemble: Tom hardy. Favorite Band: The Doors. Personality: uhhm ....(what can i say...we asd people are strange)
I don't fully understand all of what you're trying to convey, but I do agree that the misunderstandings are real as misunderstandings; that the illusions are real as illusions in people's experience. that said, it is still necessary for those who see them as misunderstandings and want to present an alternative that is more accurate to be that, to express that alternative. it does not originate change, but it is possible that being this will be in relation to a difference in local humanity towards accuracy. or maybe that won't be here.
anyway...
Dao De Jing: 1 -
道可道,非常道。名可名,非常名。
無名天地之始;有名萬物之母。
故常無欲,以觀其妙;常有欲,以觀其徼。
此兩者,同出而異名,同謂之玄。
玄之又玄,衆妙之門。
Derek Lin's translation:
"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
Thus, constantly free of desire
One observes its wonders
Constantly filled with desire
One observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders"
I would suggest that perhaps the wording may be more precise if it was translated as
"The Tao that can be spoken is not the fundamental Tao,
The name that can be named is not a fundamental name.
The nameless is the truth of Fundamental Reality and Personal Experience,
The named is what gives rise to myriad things.
Thus, constantly without pull
ONE observes its mystery.
Constantly with pull
one observes its manifestations.
These two emerge together but differ in name,
The unity is said to be the mystery.
Mystery of mysteries, the door to All."
Language Divides, THere is No
Doubt As Language is Culture
And Culture is Tradition
And By Very Nature
Tradition, Culture,
And Langauge
Excludes That Which
Does Not Fit And What
Is Seen Alien to Language,
Culture, Tradition; Yes, Religions,
Philosophies, And Politics The Same
my FRiEnD
And True
The Part of Our Mind
That Understands The
Whole the Most Without
Separation Is the Part
That Does Not
Communicate
In Words At All;
The Part That Is Whole
Indeed, Not Separated So Much
By Language, Culture, And Tradition
That Inherently Excludes, Divides, And Separates...
Anyway, Thanks For
Including the Tao
As i Surely Left
Out A Very Influential
Human Icon, Lao Tzu,
For Whatever Ghost Authors
May Have Contributed What
We See of Words Attributed to
that 'Name' as Well...
SMiLes
My FRiEnD,
It's Much Easier
For Folks to At Least
Feel and Sense What i Relate
Here With No Words At All; Just
A Flow Of Oneness in Ecstatic
Autotelic Meditating Contemplating Free Dance...
Of Course i am An Only One Who Dances By my Finger
Prints
Same
As Words
i Leave Behind
As Footprints of
The "SonG oF mY SoUL"; Yes,
This Is me, i Make No Excuses
For my Existence And as the Naysayers
May Come and Go And Understandably So
Those Who Have Problems Understanding
The Depth of the "SonG oF mY SoUL" As that
Relates My Unique Leaf Feeding The Tree And Seed
That is me
i Simply
Respond
With Falling Leaves
As That Comes Still Feeding
my Tree And Seed Naked, Enough, Whole Complete...
However, If i Were To Stay Static And Not Grow For
the Benefit of Other Leaves Refusing Growth; What An
Offense
to Nature
i Will Surely Be...
Reducing The Size
of The Entire Living Loving Tree...
And No, i for one, Have No Problems Understanding You...
Yet of Course, One Will Expect Someone Soon Perhaps
Identifying Your Words Similar to Mine As 'Word Salad'
And That's Okay For In Their World They Don't 'See' What i or You Do...
There Are Many
Kinds of
Color Blindness
Indeed as i Surely
No Longer Will be
Limited to What 'They' Breathe...
For Again That is Precisely What
Language, Culture, And Tradition Does
Limiting the
Size of
The
LiVinG Entire Tree
Nameless iNdeed my FRiEnD..
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Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !
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This picture is similar to one of the nano-materials I work with in my research. If you changed the squares inside the tube to hexagons, you would have an accurate approximation of the view inside a carbon nanotube. (They can be left hollow or filled with atoms.) Usually one end is closed, but that can be removed to make a nano-straw version. Multi-walled versions can be grown if the right conditions exist during the formation process.
Interesting, and not too surprising to me. I made that image based on 12-fold symmetry of a spiral with a growth pattern following the fibonacci sequence.
12 because that is the primary set of steps: 101123584371
which when mirrored forms the 24 part fibonacci root sequence: 011235843718988764156281
which loops in expanding form to create the infinite fibonacci growth sequence.
techstepgenr8tion
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Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,183
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I almost feel odd mentioning this because I'm only 60-some pages into a 3000 page book but Iain McGilchrist's 'The Matter with Things' touts this issue as a major theme, particularly in dealing with individual 'things' as limit-cases of reality rather than reality itself.
Obviously that's a lot of reading (have yet to prove that I'll make it even 1/3 of the way through myself although I've taken on big reading tasks before), you might perhaps check out some of his interviews on the book and see if you can glean his meaning from some of those but this builds on Master and His Emissary and gets into how individual 'things' as more of a left-brained approach, holism as more of a right-brained approach, that we use each lens for different purposes (such as finding food/prey with the 'things' left brain and monitoring for novelty and predators with the right brain).
I can see where if it's like that, and we're trying to decide between two semi-opponent processes that our minds are divided into that the best we can perhaps do is establish meaningful things that can be said about things vs. wholes and the relationships to each other rather than saying which is more fundamental, IMHO that seems almost like a misuse of grammar - ie. like what's better, simple derivatives or using Euler's formula for complex numbers? Best answer perhaps - it depends what you're trying to do.
_________________
“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin
my point is not that there are no different things, my point is that different things are necessarily an expression of whole and that difference is not the same as separation. the expressions that are associated at the level of personal experience to be individual forms are not truly independent forms, they are part of a larger pattern. that doesn't mean that the pattern doesn't include those appearances, it just means that they are factually part of the larger pattern. there are plenty of meaningful things that can be said about things as they are experienced as different forms, and that is BECAUSE they are relational expressions of whole. if they weren't relational expressions of whole, then there would be no experience of them and they would have no relevance to anything else because they would be independent. wholeness is more fundamental because it is not an expression of personal experience, it is that which expresses ALL things, including all personal experiences and all emergences of difference.
that said, I do think that in some situations in the present, it is only possible to address phenomena at the human experience level by using language that frames things as cause and effect. that is not inherently necessary though. I would be interested to see what a culture would look like that spoke accurately without conflating correlation and causation.
thanks for the suggestion, I will look into his interviews on the subject.