Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Lia Thomas Record setting trans swimmer controversy

Page 4 of 5 [ 72 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Nades
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Jan 2017
Age: 1933
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,813
Location: wales

05 Jun 2022, 11:16 am

hurtloam wrote:
Nades wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
All this could be solved by allowing trans people to transition before puberty.

The same people who want to keep trans people out of sport are the same who would cry bloody murder if a prepubescent trans child were allowed access to hormone blockers.

Knowingly or unknowingly, their double combination of "you can't compete in women's sports because you're too strong" and "you can't have access to hormone blockers during the time they are most effective" is excluding transwomen from sports.



You mean 12 year olds or younger? That's completely insane. They don't even know what sexuality is at that age.


Feeling like you're in the wrong body isn't about sexuality.

Sexuality is about who you are sexually attracted to.

If you are going to make an argument you need to use the correct language and terms. Imagine if you were debating cricket and calling an LBW something it wasn't. No one would listen. If you want people to listen, engage with the topic.

Bad debating. I'm marking you down.


I think people can only really know if they're in the wrong body once they develop a sense of sexual attraction. Deciding to change gender at an incredibly young age without even developing any sense of of who or what someone is attracted to seems like a bad idea.

Imagine an 11 year old boy turning into 11 year old girl only to realise he was into women all along and faces a lifetime of alienating himself from them due to years of hormone replacement drugs and possible surgery?

Gender, sex and sexuality goes hand in hand. I wouldn't say they're separate tangents but rather closely linked.



Nades
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Jan 2017
Age: 1933
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,813
Location: wales

05 Jun 2022, 11:23 am

hurtloam wrote:
I've got no strong feelings on this, but you're bad debaters here.

Using the word "cheating" is counterproductive.

In a competition cheating is when one schemes to win by bending the rules. It's premeditated.

The decision to swim with the women's team wasn't made so that the rules could be flaunted. There was no sneaky, "ha ha, if I do this I'll win".

I'll give an example of cheating. Deliberately taking performance enhancing drugs. That's pre-meditated.

This person feels that they are a woman and wants to swim with women. They do it because they love swimming and they are following all the set rules to a T. The motivation isn't, "I wasn't winning in the men's team, maybe I should compete with women so I can win." The motivation was, "I love swimming. How can I be who I feel I am and still keep swimming?"

Imagine if you had to stop one of your special interests one day. How would that make you feel? That's how Lia feels about swimming.

Whether that's fair on the other women is another matter entirely. But it's not cheating.


I think the this individual has knowingly began competing against women with a significant advantage. I think this is a big motivator for Lia competing against them in the first place.

I consider it cheating. The odds of Lia being oblivious to being 6 foot 1 (supposedly) and having shoulders and arms like a gantry crane seems remote.

Lia can still swim, but fairly and perhaps like Pepe suggested against similar weight classes or something.

I'm surprised the women who have trained for years are putting up with this situation for so long.



Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

05 Jun 2022, 7:15 pm

Nades wrote:
hurtloam wrote:
Nades wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
All this could be solved by allowing trans people to transition before puberty.

The same people who want to keep trans people out of sport are the same who would cry bloody murder if a prepubescent trans child were allowed access to hormone blockers.

Knowingly or unknowingly, their double combination of "you can't compete in women's sports because you're too strong" and "you can't have access to hormone blockers during the time they are most effective" is excluding transwomen from sports.



You mean 12 year olds or younger? That's completely insane. They don't even know what sexuality is at that age.


Feeling like you're in the wrong body isn't about sexuality.

Sexuality is about who you are sexually attracted to.

If you are going to make an argument you need to use the correct language and terms. Imagine if you were debating cricket and calling an LBW something it wasn't. No one would listen. If you want people to listen, engage with the topic.

Bad debating. I'm marking you down.


I think people can only really know if they're in the wrong body once they develop a sense of sexual attraction. Deciding to change gender at an incredibly young age without even developing any sense of of who or what someone is attracted to seems like a bad idea.

Imagine an 11 year old boy turning into 11 year old girl only to realise he was into women all along and faces a lifetime of alienating himself from them due to years of hormone replacement drugs and possible surgery?

Gender, sex and sexuality goes hand in hand. I wouldn't say they're separate tangents but rather closely linked.


I made this point in another thread a while ago.
But it is a little more complicated when you consider lesbian and gay individuals.
I don't think you can say they are in the "wrong body" in that situation.
It is a case of sexual diversity due to the evolutionary process, imo. 8)



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,811
Location: London

06 Jun 2022, 4:34 pm

Nades wrote:

I think people can only really know if they're in the wrong body once they develop a sense of sexual attraction. Deciding to change gender at an incredibly young age without even developing any sense of of who or what someone is attracted to seems like a bad idea.

Imagine an 11 year old boy turning into 11 year old girl only to realise he was into women all along and faces a lifetime of alienating himself from them due to years of hormone replacement drugs and possible surgery?

Gender, sex and sexuality goes hand in hand. I wouldn't say they're separate tangents but rather closely linked.

No, that's pseudoscientific nonsense.

For starters I think most people are aware of their sexual attraction before the age of 12! And for another, asexual trans people exist. And for another, trans lesbian, gay, and bisexual people exist. You don't have to be a man to be "into women".

We don't allow 11 year olds to receive gender-affirming surgery or (outside of extreme circumstances) hormone. We only allow them to take puberty blockers, which are fully reversible.



Nades
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Jan 2017
Age: 1933
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,813
Location: wales

07 Jun 2022, 4:09 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Nades wrote:

I think people can only really know if they're in the wrong body once they develop a sense of sexual attraction. Deciding to change gender at an incredibly young age without even developing any sense of of who or what someone is attracted to seems like a bad idea.

Imagine an 11 year old boy turning into 11 year old girl only to realise he was into women all along and faces a lifetime of alienating himself from them due to years of hormone replacement drugs and possible surgery?

Gender, sex and sexuality goes hand in hand. I wouldn't say they're separate tangents but rather closely linked.

No, that's pseudoscientific nonsense.

For starters I think most people are aware of their sexual attraction before the age of 12! And for another, asexual trans people exist. And for another, trans lesbian, gay, and bisexual people exist. You don't have to be a man to be "into women".

We don't allow 11 year olds to receive gender-affirming surgery or (outside of extreme circumstances) hormone. We only allow them to take puberty blockers, which are fully reversible.


Drugs that interfere with sex hormones sound pretty much the same. I wouldn't describe interfering with sex hormones possibly for the entire duration of puberty as reversible.

12 year olds have a basic understanding of their sexuality but nowhere near the level needed to make a decision on blocking hormones. Plenty probably even feel attracted to cartoon characters. For all intents and purposes, a 12 year old knows nothing about attraction.

It applies to whatever or whoever someone is into as well. Children just can't decide.



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,811
Location: London

07 Jun 2022, 4:44 am

Nades wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Nades wrote:

I think people can only really know if they're in the wrong body once they develop a sense of sexual attraction. Deciding to change gender at an incredibly young age without even developing any sense of of who or what someone is attracted to seems like a bad idea.

Imagine an 11 year old boy turning into 11 year old girl only to realise he was into women all along and faces a lifetime of alienating himself from them due to years of hormone replacement drugs and possible surgery?

Gender, sex and sexuality goes hand in hand. I wouldn't say they're separate tangents but rather closely linked.

No, that's pseudoscientific nonsense.

For starters I think most people are aware of their sexual attraction before the age of 12! And for another, asexual trans people exist. And for another, trans lesbian, gay, and bisexual people exist. You don't have to be a man to be "into women".

We don't allow 11 year olds to receive gender-affirming surgery or (outside of extreme circumstances) hormone. We only allow them to take puberty blockers, which are fully reversible.


Drugs that interfere with sex hormones sound pretty much the same. I wouldn't describe interfering with sex hormones possibly for the entire duration of puberty as reversible.

12 year olds have a basic understanding of their sexuality but nowhere near the level needed to make a decision on blocking hormones. Plenty probably even feel attracted to cartoon characters. For all intents and purposes, a 12 year old knows nothing about attraction.

It applies to whatever or whoever someone is into as well. Children just can't decide.

Well, again, these views do not have an empirical basis. There is a huge difference between puberty blocking and hormone replacement. It should also be noted that puberty itself is an irreversible process. Does it not make more sense to allow people to choose which puberty they go through when they are old enough to make that decision, rather than forcing them to go through one particular puberty?

There is also a serious contradiction in your positions. You claim that you’re opposed to transition before puberty, but you’re also opposed to transition after puberty on the grounds that it is “cheating”. Opposition to transition is of course always bigoted by definition, but previously I think you’d tried to carve out a space where you were only opposed to transition in some circumstances. Now frankly I’m struggling to see what remains?



Nades
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Jan 2017
Age: 1933
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,813
Location: wales

07 Jun 2022, 5:40 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Nades wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Nades wrote:

I think people can only really know if they're in the wrong body once they develop a sense of sexual attraction. Deciding to change gender at an incredibly young age without even developing any sense of of who or what someone is attracted to seems like a bad idea.

Imagine an 11 year old boy turning into 11 year old girl only to realise he was into women all along and faces a lifetime of alienating himself from them due to years of hormone replacement drugs and possible surgery?

Gender, sex and sexuality goes hand in hand. I wouldn't say they're separate tangents but rather closely linked.

No, that's pseudoscientific nonsense.

For starters I think most people are aware of their sexual attraction before the age of 12! And for another, asexual trans people exist. And for another, trans lesbian, gay, and bisexual people exist. You don't have to be a man to be "into women".

We don't allow 11 year olds to receive gender-affirming surgery or (outside of extreme circumstances) hormone. We only allow them to take puberty blockers, which are fully reversible.


Drugs that interfere with sex hormones sound pretty much the same. I wouldn't describe interfering with sex hormones possibly for the entire duration of puberty as reversible.

12 year olds have a basic understanding of their sexuality but nowhere near the level needed to make a decision on blocking hormones. Plenty probably even feel attracted to cartoon characters. For all intents and purposes, a 12 year old knows nothing about attraction.

It applies to whatever or whoever someone is into as well. Children just can't decide.

Well, again, these views do not have an empirical basis. There is a huge difference between puberty blocking and hormone replacement. It should also be noted that puberty itself is an irreversible process. Does it not make more sense to allow people to choose which puberty they go through when they are old enough to make that decision, rather than forcing them to go through one particular puberty?

There is also a serious contradiction in your positions. You claim that you’re opposed to transition before puberty, but you’re also opposed to transition after puberty on the grounds that it is “cheating”. Opposition to transition is of course always bigoted by definition, but previously I think you’d tried to carve out a space where you were only opposed to transition in some circumstances. Now frankly I’m struggling to see what remains?


12 years olds are not old enough to even know what puberty is, yet alone know the long term ramifications of choosing male or female.

I've never mentioned anything about being opposed to Lia's transition, the entirety of what I've said is opposition to Lia competing against a demographic that will always be at a disadvantage to her.

Trans people can do what they like as long as they don't use their new status as male or female to their advantage. This includes sports.



kitesandtrainsandcats
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2016
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,965
Location: Missouri

07 Jun 2022, 9:31 pm

CBS Austin
Female skateboarder says trans competitors are taking prize money away from her and others
by ZACHARY ROGERS | The National DeskFriday, May 20th 2022
https://cbsaustin.com/news/nation-world ... oman-girls
"
WASHINGTON (TND) — A female skateboarder took to social media to speak out about transgender athletes competing in her sport and winning, taking thousands of dollars of prize money away from her and other biologically female skaters.

“I am sick of being bullied into silence,” Taylor Silverman, 27, said in her post on Wednesday.

At the last contest series I did for Redbull, I placed second. The trans competitor who won took $1000 dollars in qualifiers, $3000 in finals, and $1,000 in best trick," Silverman writes in her post. "This totaled to $5000 of the prize money meant for the female athletes.
"
...

"
Others disagree, going so far as to label the skateboarder a "transphobe." Some have even begun targeting and attacking Silverman online.

Blogger Christina Buttons tweeted “the amount of vitriol Taylor Silverman has received is exactly why more women don’t come forward when biological males enter their sports category.”

“Every hour, 100’s of abusive comments come in for every few offering support,” Buttons added, saying Silverman was “incredibly brave for speaking up to defend her sports category. Not many can tolerate the onslaught of abuse she’s endured.”
"


_________________
"There are a thousand things that can happen when you go light a rocket engine, and only one of them is good."
Tom Mueller of SpaceX, in Air and Space, Jan. 2011


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

07 Jun 2022, 10:55 pm

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
CBS Austin
Female skateboarder says trans competitors are taking prize money away from her and others
by ZACHARY ROGERS | The National DeskFriday, May 20th 2022
https://cbsaustin.com/news/nation-world ... oman-girls
"
WASHINGTON (TND) — A female skateboarder took to social media to speak out about transgender athletes competing in her sport and winning, taking thousands of dollars of prize money away from her and other biologically female skaters.

“I am sick of being bullied into silence,” Taylor Silverman, 27, said in her post on Wednesday.

At the last contest series I did for Redbull, I placed second. The trans competitor who won took $1000 dollars in qualifiers, $3000 in finals, and $1,000 in best trick," Silverman writes in her post. "This totaled to $5000 of the prize money meant for the female athletes.
"
...

"
Others disagree, going so far as to label the skateboarder a "transphobe." Some have even begun targeting and attacking Silverman online.

Blogger Christina Buttons tweeted “the amount of vitriol Taylor Silverman has received is exactly why more women don’t come forward when biological males enter their sports category.”

“Every hour, 100’s of abusive comments come in for every few offering support,” Buttons added, saying Silverman was “incredibly brave for speaking up to defend her sports category. Not many can tolerate the onslaught of abuse she’s endured.”
"


How does a male physiology help in skateboarding?



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,811
Location: London

09 Jun 2022, 1:20 am

Nades wrote:

12 years olds are not old enough to even know what puberty is, yet alone know the long term ramifications of choosing male or female.

Nah, in my experience twelve year olds have a very good understanding of puberty - they’re living at the sharp end of it, after all.

In any case, blocking puberty is the thing that allows them to make a decision when they are old enough, rather than being forced into one puberty. Surely the logical conclusion of your argument is that all teenagers should be on puberty blockers?



Nades
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Jan 2017
Age: 1933
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,813
Location: wales

09 Jun 2022, 9:30 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Nades wrote:

12 years olds are not old enough to even know what puberty is, yet alone know the long term ramifications of choosing male or female.

Nah, in my experience twelve year olds have a very good understanding of puberty - they’re living at the sharp end of it, after all.

In any case, blocking puberty is the thing that allows them to make a decision when they are old enough, rather than being forced into one puberty. Surely the logical conclusion of your argument is that all teenagers should be on puberty blockers?


I honestly can't envision the possible harm caused by delaying puberty until the age of 20 or something. How can it be assumed as safe when it's so new? Sounds like it might cause organ damage and permanently cause skeletal problems as old age starts kicking in.

Better to go through the "wrong" puberty than be an underdeveloped 20 year old both male or female.

12 year olds don't really understand puberty too. They're on the sharp end because puberty is only just beginning and not coming to an end. Same how I was on the sharp end of driving when learning to drive and facing the biggest critique of my driving I ever had. I still didn't have much of a clue regardless.



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,811
Location: London

09 Jun 2022, 12:47 pm

Well, going through puberty isn't safe. It's associated with all sort of negative outcomes - mental health issues, sexually transmitted diseases, violent criminality, homelessness.

Is there any evidence that delaying it is harmful? Because I'd rather act based on evidence, not failures of imagination.



slam_thunderhide
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 5 Dec 2014
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 307

11 Jun 2022, 8:18 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Well, going through puberty isn't safe. It's associated with all sort of negative outcomes - mental health issues, sexually transmitted diseases, violent criminality, homelessness.

Is there any evidence that delaying it is harmful? Because I'd rather act based on evidence, not failures of imagination.


"Well, going through puberty isn't safe" has got to be the lamest defence of puberty blockers I've ever seen.



slam_thunderhide
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 5 Dec 2014
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 307

11 Jun 2022, 8:21 am

Should we just make WP a trans forum already? It seems to me that the sensibilities of the trans community are given greater consideration in here than even those of the 'autistic community' WP supposedly serves.



shortfatbalduglyman
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,749

11 Jun 2022, 8:26 am

There are plenty of reasons why someone could have an unfair advantage at athletic competitions

Genetics

Nature versus nurture

Besides someone cisgender women are naturally faster swimmers than some cisgender women

__________________________________

To make the playing field level, get rid of athletic competitions



shlaifu
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 May 2014
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,659

11 Jun 2022, 11:21 am

shortfatbalduglyman wrote:
There are plenty of reasons why someone could have an unfair advantage at athletic competitions

Genetics

Nature versus nurture

Besides someone cisgender women are naturally faster swimmers than some cisgender women

__________________________________

To make the playing field level, get rid of athletic competitions


Yes. That's sort of the nature of an athletic competition: to determine who's got the best genes, nurture, training, mental state.
If all of that were exactly the same, down to the turbulence of the wateratoms in the pool. - then the competition would end in a tie, to the femtosecond, every time.
But: it's not worth having a competition to determine who's got the most fitting genes and training etc., if one person is 6'1" and has 60% more muscle mass.


_________________
I can read facial expressions. I did the test.