Lia Thomas Record setting trans swimmer controversy

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magz
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23 Mar 2022, 2:48 am

 ! magz wrote:
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01 Jun 2022, 8:40 am

Transgender swimmer Lia Thomas says she didn't transition to gain advantage in college sport

Quote:
Transgender swimmer Lia Thomas, who made headlines after winning an NCAA Division I national championship, responded to critics who say that she gained an unfair advantage competing against women.

The biggest misconception, I think, is the reason I transitioned," Thomas told ABC News and ESPN. "People will say, 'Oh, she just transitioned so she would have an advantage, so she could win.' I transitioned to be happy, to be true to myself."

Trans women competing in women's sports does not threaten women's sports as a whole," Thomas said. "Trans women are a very small minority of all athletes. The NCAA rules regarding trans women competing in women's sports have been around for 10- plus years. And we haven't seen any massive wave of trans women dominating."

"Trans people don’t transition for athletics. We transition to be happy and authentic and our true selves. Transitioning to get an advantage is not something that ever factors into our decisions.”

It's no different than a cis (cisgender) woman taking a spot on a travel team or a scholarship. It's a part of athletics, where people are competing against one each other. It's not taking away opportunities from cis women really," Thomas said. "Trans women are women, so it's still a woman who is getting that scholarship or that opportunity."

Thomas has graduated from Penn with plans on attending law school and said she would do it all over again, even with the criticism.

"I've been able to do the sport that I love as my authentic self," she said.


LIA THOMAS’ TEAMMATE BLASTS PENN, CLAIMS WOMEN’S OBJECTIONS WERE SILENCED
Quote:
A teammate of transgender swimmer Lia Thomas is speaking out against the University of Pennsylvania, claiming the school was more concerned with swim meet wins and attention than the feelings of those women swimming with and against Thomas.

“If you even bring up the fact that Lia swimming might not be fair, you are immediately shut down as being called a hateful person, or transphobic,” a Thomas teammate, who wished to remain anonymous, told author Matt Walsh.

The comments from Thomas’ teammate were aired in a trailer for Walsh’s new film “What Is A Woman,” premiering Wednesday evening.

Lia obviously helps us do better. Lia’s swimming really fast,” said her anonymous teammate. “Lia’s performance helps the University of Pennsylvania swim team.

“The feeling of winning doesn’t feel as good anymore because it feels tainted.”

There’s a lot of things you couldn’t talk about that were very concerning, like a locker room situation,” Walsh was told by Thomas’ teammate. “If you even brought up concerns about it you were transphobic.”

When Walsh asked if the University of Pennsylvania ever sat the swimmers down to acknowledge their emotions, the interviewee said an LGBTQ representative spoke to the team, along with someone from the school’s psychological services department.

Those meetings however, appeared to be one-sided. “They said, ‘Look, we understand there’s an array of emotions, but Lia’s swimming is a non-negotiable. However we can help you make that OK, that’s what we’re here for,’” Thomas’ teammate added.


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01 Jun 2022, 12:41 pm

Quote:
Those meetings however, appeared to be one-sided. “They said, ‘Look, we understand there’s an array of emotions, but Lia’s swimming is a non-negotiable. However we can help you make that OK, that’s what we’re here for,’” Thomas’ teammate added.

My respect for the University of Pennsylvania just went up massively. You kind of can’t really put it better than that.



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01 Jun 2022, 1:13 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Does one really lose strength and endurance when one undergoes a transformation from a man to a woman?


It seems to be the case they don't lose a considerable amount of strength. Men have significant skeletal and size advantages over women along with the muscle mass needed to bulk out their naturally larger frames.

Once a male passes through puberty, the permanent changes in their development will always give them an advantage over females. No amount of hormone drugs will ever change that.

Lia Thomas indeed seems to have a considerable size advantage and it's much heavier set in the shoulders due to being male through puberty. It's cheating plain and simple.

Check these pictures for how huge Lia is.

There should be a separate trans class in any sporting event.



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01 Jun 2022, 9:34 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Quote:
Those meetings however, appeared to be one-sided. “They said, ‘Look, we understand there’s an array of emotions, but Lia’s swimming is a non-negotiable. However we can help you make that OK, that’s what we’re here for,’” Thomas’ teammate added.

My respect for the University of Pennsylvania just went up massively. You kind of can’t really put it better than that.


Why though? I am all for trans-people having the right to adjust their bodies to fit their brain-gender, and in social circumstances, it is right to treat a person as the person they are, not as the body they were born into, but it's a misunderstanding to assume a trans-body can do the same things a cis-body can, or, can't do.
Professional sports however is all about what bodies can do, and the seperation by gender assigned at birth is arbitrary and therefore debatable.
It's not non-negotiable, but rather, it has to be negotiated, urgently.


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01 Jun 2022, 10:10 pm

Nades wrote:
There should be a separate trans class in any sporting event.

That would effectively make it impossible for trans people to participate in sports.

shlaifu wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Quote:
Those meetings however, appeared to be one-sided. “They said, ‘Look, we understand there’s an array of emotions, but Lia’s swimming is a non-negotiable. However we can help you make that OK, that’s what we’re here for,’” Thomas’ teammate added.

My respect for the University of Pennsylvania just went up massively. You kind of can’t really put it better than that.


Why though? I am all for trans-people having the right to adjust their bodies to fit their brain-gender, and in social circumstances, it is right to treat a person as the person they are, not as the body they were born into, but it's a misunderstanding to assume a trans-body can do the same things a cis-body can, or, can't do.
Professional sports however is all about what bodies can do, and the seperation by gender assigned at birth is arbitrary and therefore debatable.
It's not non-negotiable, but rather, it has to be negotiated, urgently.

Simply put, it is wrong to pander to bigots at the expense of inclusion. Yes, not everyone’s bodies can do the same things. As you say, that’s what professional sports is all about. I can’t compete with Michael Phelps but that doesn’t mean he should be banned from competing.



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02 Jun 2022, 1:06 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Nades wrote:
There should be a separate trans class in any sporting event.

That would effectively make it impossible for trans people to participate in sports.

shlaifu wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Quote:
Those meetings however, appeared to be one-sided. “They said, ‘Look, we understand there’s an array of emotions, but Lia’s swimming is a non-negotiable. However we can help you make that OK, that’s what we’re here for,’” Thomas’ teammate added.

My respect for the University of Pennsylvania just went up massively. You kind of can’t really put it better than that.


Why though? I am all for trans-people having the right to adjust their bodies to fit their brain-gender, and in social circumstances, it is right to treat a person as the person they are, not as the body they were born into, but it's a misunderstanding to assume a trans-body can do the same things a cis-body can, or, can't do.
Professional sports however is all about what bodies can do, and the seperation by gender assigned at birth is arbitrary and therefore debatable.
It's not non-negotiable, but rather, it has to be negotiated, urgently.

Simply put, it is wrong to pander to bigots at the expense of inclusion. Yes, not everyone’s bodies can do the same things. As you say, that’s what professional sports is all about. I can’t compete with Michael Phelps but that doesn’t mean he should be banned from competing.



It does make competing in sport very difficult but over the years a trans only category might become possible.

I wouldn't consider it bigotry to raise concerns over, even if they're a desire to ban someone over an unfair advantage. Lia clearly has much larger chest and back muscles that are possible by the support of broader shoulder bones.

Even with modest swimming the muscles will fill in the space the shoulders allow.

It's cheating basically.



Last edited by Nades on 02 Jun 2022, 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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02 Jun 2022, 1:24 am

Nades wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Does one really lose strength and endurance when one undergoes a transformation from a man to a woman?


It seems to be the case they don't lose a considerable amount of strength. Men have significant skeletal and size advantages over women along with the muscle mass needed to bulk out their naturally larger frames.

Once a male passes through puberty, the permanent changes in their development will always give them an advantage over females. No amount of hormone drugs will ever change that.

Lia Thomas indeed seems to have a considerable size advantage and it's much heavier set in the shoulders due to being male through puberty. It's cheating plain and simple.

Check these pictures for how huge Lia is.

There should be a separate trans class in any sporting event.


A simple and rational answer to this controversy.


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And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

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Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
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02 Jun 2022, 1:27 am

shlaifu wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Quote:
Those meetings however, appeared to be one-sided. “They said, ‘Look, we understand there’s an array of emotions, but Lia’s swimming is a non-negotiable. However we can help you make that OK, that’s what we’re here for,’” Thomas’ teammate added.

My respect for the University of Pennsylvania just went up massively. You kind of can’t really put it better than that.


Why though? I am all for trans-people having the right to adjust their bodies to fit their brain-gender, and in social circumstances, it is right to treat a person as the person they are, not as the body they were born into, but it's a misunderstanding to assume a trans-body can do the same things a cis-body can, or, can't do.
Professional sports however is all about what bodies can do, and the seperation by gender assigned at birth is arbitrary and therefore debatable.
It's not non-negotiable, but rather, it has to be negotiated, urgently.


Ignoring the facts is non-negotiable to me, meaning the facts are imperative. 8)


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Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
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Pepe
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02 Jun 2022, 1:30 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Simply put, it is wrong to pander to bigots at the expense of inclusion. Yes, not everyone’s bodies can do the same things.


An illogical slur.
An Ad hominem.
Binarism at its worst. 8)


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Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


Pepe
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02 Jun 2022, 1:34 am

Nades wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Nades wrote:
There should be a separate trans class in any sporting event.

That would effectively make it impossible for trans people to participate in sports.

shlaifu wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Quote:
Those meetings however, appeared to be one-sided. “They said, ‘Look, we understand there’s an array of emotions, but Lia’s swimming is a non-negotiable. However we can help you make that OK, that’s what we’re here for,’” Thomas’ teammate added.

My respect for the University of Pennsylvania just went up massively. You kind of can’t really put it better than that.


Why though? I am all for trans-people having the right to adjust their bodies to fit their brain-gender, and in social circumstances, it is right to treat a person as the person they are, not as the body they were born into, but it's a misunderstanding to assume a trans-body can do the same things a cis-body can, or, can't do.
Professional sports however is all about what bodies can do, and the seperation by gender assigned at birth is arbitrary and therefore debatable.
It's not non-negotiable, but rather, it has to be negotiated, urgently.

Simply put, it is wrong to pander to bigots at the expense of inclusion. Yes, not everyone’s bodies can do the same things. As you say, that’s what professional sports is all about. I can’t compete with Michael Phelps but that doesn’t mean he should be banned from competing.



It does make competing in sport very difficult but over the years a trans only category might become possible.

I wouldn't consider it bigotry to raise concerns over, even if they're a desire to ban someone over an unfair advantage. Lia clearly has much larger chest and back muscles that are possible by the support of broader shoulders bones.

Even with modest swimming the muscles will fill in the space the shoulders allow.

It's cheating basically.


To say it is bigotry is absolute nonsense.
It is a valid consideration. 8)


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


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02 Jun 2022, 2:04 am

Pepe wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Simply put, it is wrong to pander to bigots at the expense of inclusion. Yes, not everyone’s bodies can do the same things.


An illogical slur.
An Ad hominem.
Binarism at its worst. 8)

It’s neither illogical nor ad hominem to say that discrimination against trans people is bigotry.

Ad hominem is when you attack the person rather than the argument. For example, if I said that we should get rid of seat belts because Jiminy Cricket likes them and he cheated on his wife, that would be an ad hominem. I am claiming that seat belts are bad because of the characteristics of Mr Cricket, rather than the characteristics of seat belts. Contrastingly, when I describe transphobes as bigoted I am not saying “transphobia is wrong because these people are bad”, I am saying the opposite - “these people are bad because they are transphobic”.



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02 Jun 2022, 2:08 am

Nades wrote:

It does make competing in sport very difficult but over the years a trans only category might become possible.

I wouldn't consider it bigotry to raise concerns over, even if they're a desire to ban someone over an unfair advantage. Lia clearly has much larger chest and back muscles that are possible by the support of broader shoulder bones.

Even with modest swimming the muscles will fill in the space the shoulders allow.

It's cheating basically.

Trans people make up such a tiny portion of the population, and an even smaller portion of elite athletics, that it will never be viable to have separate categories.

Bluntly, yes, the things you are saying are bigotry. Someone’s gender is not cheating. Being good at sports is not cheating. If Lia was cis, nobody would say she was cheating. The fact that people are only complaining about a trans woman shows that their complaints boil down to bigotry, mixed in with sour grapes.



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02 Jun 2022, 2:14 am

Pepe wrote:
Nades wrote:


It does make competing in sport very difficult but over the years a trans only category might become possible.

I wouldn't consider it bigotry to raise concerns over, even if they're a desire to ban someone over an unfair advantage. Lia clearly has much larger chest and back muscles that are possible by the support of broader shoulders bones.

Even with modest swimming the muscles will fill in the space the shoulders allow.

It's cheating basically.


To say it is bigotry is absolute nonsense.
It is a valid consideration. 8)


You can see why this debate started.

Image

It's of questionable fairness. A clear advantage. Those shoulders and muscles they support are huge. Lia also seems to be six foot high.

Lia's skeleton is never going to change. The women competing against a body like that just can't hold their own toe to toe.



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02 Jun 2022, 2:16 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Nades wrote:

It does make competing in sport very difficult but over the years a trans only category might become possible.

I wouldn't consider it bigotry to raise concerns over, even if they're a desire to ban someone over an unfair advantage. Lia clearly has much larger chest and back muscles that are possible by the support of broader shoulder bones.

Even with modest swimming the muscles will fill in the space the shoulders allow.

It's cheating basically.

Trans people make up such a tiny portion of the population, and an even smaller portion of elite athletics, that it will never be viable to have separate categories.

Bluntly, yes, the things you are saying are bigotry. Someone’s gender is not cheating. Being good at sports is not cheating. If Lia was cis, nobody would say she was cheating. The fact that people are only complaining about a trans woman shows that their complaints boil down to bigotry, mixed in with sour grapes.


Sports and it's fairness is about biological sex and not gender though.

If Lia was cis there wouldn't be an issue as lia would be competing fairly.

I also don't see any born women coming out as trans and competing with the men. It'l always seems to be born men coming out as trans and competing with women.



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02 Jun 2022, 2:18 am

Nades wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Nades wrote:


It does make competing in sport very difficult but over the years a trans only category might become possible.

I wouldn't consider it bigotry to raise concerns over, even if they're a desire to ban someone over an unfair advantage. Lia clearly has much larger chest and back muscles that are possible by the support of broader shoulders bones.

Even with modest swimming the muscles will fill in the space the shoulders allow.

It's cheating basically.


To say it is bigotry is absolute nonsense.
It is a valid consideration. 8)


You can see why this debate started.

Image

It's of questionable fairness. A clear advantage. Those shoulders and muscles they support are huge. Lia also seems to be six foot high.

Lia's skeleton is never going to change. The women competing against a body like that just can't hold their own toe to toe.


At least she isn't winning any events.
Oh, wait. 8O

I am totally in favour of equality, but this is not equality.
Clearly, Lia has an unfair advantage, and if anyone can't see this, I have to wonder why not.
Has "reason" been banned from this thread? :scratch:


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Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.