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Jamaica's PM Tells Prince William: 'We're Moving on'

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funeralxempire
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23 Mar 2022, 2:04 pm

Jamaica's Prime Minister Tells Prince William: 'We're Moving on': 'We Intend to Become an Independent Country'

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Prince William and Kate Middleton were faced with the controversy that has followed them on their tour of the Caribbean during their official meeting with Jamaica's Prime Minister, Andrew Holness, on Wednesday.

During their meeting, Holness directly addressed his country's intention to break away from the British monarchy, referencing the anti-colonial protests that took place amid the couple's arrival in Jamaica on Tuesday and the call for the country to drop William's grandmother Queen Elizabeth as head of state.

"We're very, very happy to have you and we hope you've received a warm welcome of the people," he said. "Jamaica is a very free and liberal country and the people are very expressive —and I'm certain that you would have seen the spectrum of expressions yesterday," he said, referencing the couple's warm welcome in Trench Town, which followed a protest calling for slave reparations from the British monarchy in the country's capital.

...


Good on 'em. I sincerely hope Canada considers becoming a republic in the near future.


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Mikah
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23 Mar 2022, 3:06 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Good on 'em. I sincerely hope Canada considers becoming a republic in the near future.


What would change?


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funeralxempire
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23 Mar 2022, 3:30 pm

Mikah wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Good on 'em. I sincerely hope Canada considers becoming a republic in the near future.


What would change?


Well, at the very least it would keep Chuckles' face off of our money once his mother finally kicks the bucket.

Overall it would be an affirmation of Canada as independent and not merely a colony, even better it might serve to encourage more places to reconsider if a hereditary monarchy makes any sense.


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The_Walrus
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23 Mar 2022, 4:57 pm

I don't think any citizens should be considered inherently, heriditarily superior to others.

Unfortunately our monarchy probably isn't even in our top five issues with our democratic system.



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25 Mar 2022, 5:43 am

Mikah wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Good on 'em. I sincerely hope Canada considers becoming a republic in the near future.


What would change?


My thoughts exactly.



funeralxempire
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25 Mar 2022, 11:46 am

Is there any benefit to keeping it? Except for a small number of monarchists seething when the obsolete tradition is abandoned I don't see any negatives to leaving it and I see no positives to maintaining it.

Why keep a tradition that has no meaning except for serving as a reminder of colonialism and little popular support?


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25 Mar 2022, 12:08 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Is there any benefit to keeping it? . . .
I do not know . . . financial support, maybe?  Haiti is independent . . . how are they doing?



funeralxempire
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25 Mar 2022, 12:17 pm

Fnord wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Is there any benefit to keeping it? . . .
I do not know . . . financial support, maybe?  Haiti is independent . . . how are they doing?


Bad example, Haiti was forced to pay damages to the French after winning their war of independence. Can you imagine if America was forced to do that?

If anything France owes Haiti reparations in double.

The Crown doesn't provide any monies to any of the Dominions, so the financial support you're imagining doesn't exist.


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Fnord
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25 Mar 2022, 12:22 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Fnord wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Is there any benefit to keeping it? . . .
I do not know . . . financial support, maybe?  Haiti is independent . . . how are they doing?
Bad example, Haiti was forced to pay damages to the French after winning their war of independence. Can you imagine if America was forced to do that?  If anything France owes Haiti reparations in double.  The Crown doesn't provide any monies to any of the Dominions, so the financial support you're imagining doesn't exist.
I did not know that.  So, Jamaica would not have to pay the Crown . . . did the Crown have to pay the EU for Brexit?



funeralxempire
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25 Mar 2022, 12:32 pm

Fnord wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Fnord wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Is there any benefit to keeping it? . . .
I do not know . . . financial support, maybe?  Haiti is independent . . . how are they doing?
Bad example, Haiti was forced to pay damages to the French after winning their war of independence. Can you imagine if America was forced to do that?  If anything France owes Haiti reparations in double.  The Crown doesn't provide any monies to any of the Dominions, so the financial support you're imagining doesn't exist.
I did not know that.  So, Jamaica would not have to pay the Crown . . . did the Crown have to pay the EU for Brexit?


The two aren't really comparable in any meaningful way. The UK joined the EU voluntarily, their membership wasn't imposed without sovereignty.

Trinidad and Tobago became a republic and is doing quite well for themselves.


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25 Mar 2022, 12:32 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Is there any benefit to keeping it? Except for a small number of monarchists seething when the obsolete tradition is abandoned I don't see any negatives to leaving it and I see no positives to maintaining it.


The "Orwell argument" always held sway with me. Where the glory and adoration that naturally orbit the head of state are separated from any real power. Where the Queen gets a palace, a gilded carriage and is largely protected from criticism while the Prime Minister gets a terraced house and blasted in the paper for his every mistake. Having a foreign monarch might feel a little awkward, but then again you don't have to pay for its upkeep either.


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25 Mar 2022, 12:35 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Fnord wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Fnord wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Is there any benefit to keeping it? . . .
I do not know . . . financial support, maybe?  Haiti is independent . . . how are they doing?
Bad example, Haiti was forced to pay damages to the French after winning their war of independence. Can you imagine if America was forced to do that?  If anything France owes Haiti reparations in double.  The Crown doesn't provide any monies to any of the Dominions, so the financial support you're imagining doesn't exist.
I did not know that.  So, Jamaica would not have to pay the Crown . . . did the Crown have to pay the EU for Brexit?
The two aren't really comparable in any meaningful way. The UK joined the EU voluntarily, their membership wasn't imposed without sovereignty.  Trinidad and Tobago became a republic and is doing quite well for themselves.
It will be interesting to see how Jamaica turns out in 50 years or so.



funeralxempire
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25 Mar 2022, 2:15 pm

Mikah wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Is there any benefit to keeping it? Except for a small number of monarchists seething when the obsolete tradition is abandoned I don't see any negatives to leaving it and I see no positives to maintaining it.


The "Orwell argument" always held sway with me. Where the glory and adoration that naturally orbit the head of state are separated from any real power. Where the Queen gets a palace, a gilded carriage and is largely protected from criticism while the Prime Minister gets a terraced house and blasted in the paper for his every mistake. Having a foreign monarch might feel a little awkward, but then again you don't have to pay for its upkeep either.


A figurehead president or governor-general can serve that role just as easily and without forever being junior to a foreign power.

That relationship might contribute to your nation's prestige but it takes from my nation's prestige.


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Mikah
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25 Mar 2022, 2:46 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
A figurehead president or governor-general can serve that role just as easily and without forever being junior to a foreign power.


I don't think that has quite the same effect, I also can't see how such people could be chosen without the choosing becoming mired in politics of the day and ruining it.

funeralxempire wrote:
That relationship might contribute to your nation's prestige but it takes from my nation's prestige.


Yeah I can understand that. But then again, as rabid republicans love to remind us, the British Royal Family is in truth German of all things...


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funeralxempire
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25 Mar 2022, 3:19 pm

Mikah wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
A figurehead president or governor-general can serve that role just as easily and without forever being junior to a foreign power.


I don't think that has quite the same effect, I also can't see how such people could be chosen without the choosing becoming mired in politics of the day and ruining it.


I feel like if the head of state is understood to be a non-political office that's little more than a national mascot it's unlikely to be caught up in whatever partisanship that impacts the rest of the political system. The office of the Governor General already effectively serves that role without needing to be viewed as a representative of the Crown.

Mikah wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
That relationship might contribute to your nation's prestige but it takes from my nation's prestige.


Yeah I can understand that. But then again, as rabid republicans love to remind us, the British Royal Family is in truth German of all things...


That seems like an element that's more likely to appear to English or Scottish or British nationalism but not relevant outside. Our monarch is inherently not one of us because she doesn't even live here; even though it's the same person, since she actually lives there that angle doesn't apply within the UK.

I'm not really concerned with what the ancestry of person holding the office is, my problem is with the office itself, especially considering why it exists in the first place. Various Commonwealth realms can't actually relate to the UK as equals so long as the British Head of State is also enshrined as our Head of State with our actual Head of State only viewed as their representative, which is to say inherently their junior.


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The_Walrus
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25 Mar 2022, 3:33 pm

Do Presidents experience more glory and adoration than Prime Ministers? I don't really notice the Americans or the French glorifying their heads of state.

Sure the Queen doesn't actively make things bad and basically blends into the political background, but to me that's that's mitigation rather than an active reason to maintain a monarchy.

Personally I wouldn't have a separate Head of State. Merge the duties with those of the Prime Minister. Maybe some could be shared with presently-ceremonial roles like the Deputy Prime Minister, Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Lord Chancellor, or even some of those weird positions currently associated with the House of Lords.