Nobody interested in the Russia-Ukraine conflict?

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naturalplastic
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24 Sep 2022, 6:56 am

goldfish21 wrote:
According to the fb post these are Polish football fans:

Image
this or that pictures


That new necktie would be VERY becoming on him :D !



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24 Sep 2022, 7:37 am

The former President of Mongolia accused Russia of using ethnic minorities as cannon fodder
https://twitter.com/b_nishanov/status/1573361332480782336

Summarize

Quote:
1. The Turkic (Tuva, Yakut) and Mongolian (Buryat, Kalmyk) minorities were unjustly involved in Putin's war

2. The Mongolian people open their arms to welcome the Russians who fled the mobilization to take refuge

3. Call on Russia to mobilize soldiers not to harm any Ukrainian men, women, old and young, and not to destroy Ukraine's freedom. Ukraine has the right to exist

4. Thank you for the courage of the Ukrainian people and the leadership of President Zelensky. Best side of the world is on your side. No dictatorship will last long. The victory of Ukraine is the victory of the world

Interesting cold knowledge: In the 1980s, little Zerensky went to primary school with his parents in Erdente, Mongolia, and at the same time Elbegdorj, as a reporter of the Red Star of the Mongolian People's Army, was sent to the Lvov Military and Political College in Ukraine to study abroad


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goldfish21
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24 Sep 2022, 11:46 am

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funeralxempire
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24 Sep 2022, 1:13 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
The former President of Mongolia accused Russia of using ethnic minorities as cannon fodder
https://twitter.com/b_nishanov/status/1573361332480782336

Summarize
Quote:
1. The Turkic (Tuva, Yakut) and Mongolian (Buryat, Kalmyk) minorities were unjustly involved in Putin's war

2. The Mongolian people open their arms to welcome the Russians who fled the mobilization to take refuge

3. Call on Russia to mobilize soldiers not to harm any Ukrainian men, women, old and young, and not to destroy Ukraine's freedom. Ukraine has the right to exist

4. Thank you for the courage of the Ukrainian people and the leadership of President Zelensky. Best side of the world is on your side. No dictatorship will last long. The victory of Ukraine is the victory of the world

Interesting cold knowledge: In the 1980s, little Zerensky went to primary school with his parents in Erdente, Mongolia, and at the same time Elbegdorj, as a reporter of the Red Star of the Mongolian People's Army, was sent to the Lvov Military and Political College in Ukraine to study abroad


It's telling that neighbouring regimes have to stick up for Russia's minorities while their own government views them as expendable cannon fodder.


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funeralxempire
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24 Sep 2022, 1:14 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Image


Yeah, that's not going to end worse than it began. :?


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goldfish21
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24 Sep 2022, 1:44 pm

Could it really be much worse than the current version?

I mean, maybe, but then they can just revolution again and again until they figure something better out.


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24 Sep 2022, 1:50 pm

russia has a long history of using the minority ethic groups in their country as cannon fodder. The soviets loved to send ethnic minorities, especially those from the east, into machine gun fire unarmed at the gunpoint of ethnic russians.



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24 Sep 2022, 2:13 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Could it really be much worse than the current version?


Ab-so-fucking-lutely. You could always (and most likely will) get an even more concentrated nationalist, 'Third Rome' informed Russian state that's less stable, even more ideologically extreme and now dedicated to avenging the slight it feels the west inflicted upon it (regardless of the fact that it was self-inflicted).

This regime would feel further even incentive to behave in the same paranoid manner the Russian state has traditionally behaved in. This regime would likely lean further into the idea that they're a Christian state under persecution by the godless liberal west (as the wackos to the right of Putin already claim, like the father of the lady who was carbombed). This regime would almost certainly behave with a heavier hand towards any regions that might seek to separate.

Think of the difference between the current Iranian or Saudi regime, and ISIS, only with an arsenal of ICBMs.
Think of the difference between the most conservative and pragmatic members of the NSDAP vs. the ones who were obsessed with mysticism, UFOs and pseudo-pagan rituals, only with an arsenal of ICBMs.

There's a good chance that whatever replaces Putin's regime will be a less rational actor.
They're all s**t sandwiches until you realize some of the s**t sandwiches also carry rabies.

Evil and stable is less dangerous than evil and batshit insane.

goldfish21 wrote:
I mean, maybe, but then they can just revolution again and again until they figure something better out.


It's not that easy, there's enormous human and other costs associated with that, if that's seriously something you view as a solution. Maybe from where your sitting those costs won't be felt, but that doesn't mean those costs won't be felt by a lot of innocent people, many of them outside of Russia.

The collapse of the Russian state, along with the disruptions to food, fertilizer and energy exports it would cause would be catastrophic to the world's economy. It would likely trigger a refugee crisis in Europe (from Russians fleeing) and it would likely trigger ethnic conflicts in Siberia and other regions that Russia stole and filled with colonists.

It might not be your problem, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a massive problem.

In a lot of ways Russia as a society behaves like a person who's experienced repeated overwhelming trauma (given that they have). If that analogy also works literally, it's understandable why certain coping mechanisms (both on an individual and on a collective level) end up so deformed. It doesn't mean the rest of the world has to tolerate antisocial actions their state undertakes, but it does mean it's likely that curbstomping Russia and repeatedly causing them to feel humiliated is unlikely to benefit anyone, not us, not Russia, not Russians and not ethnic minorities within Russia.

If that's the case we shouldn't do it, at least if we have any moral authority.


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goldfish21
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24 Sep 2022, 3:07 pm

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24 Sep 2022, 3:10 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Could it really be much worse than the current version?


Ab-so-fucking-lutely. You could always (and most likely will) get an even more concentrated nationalist, 'Third Rome' informed Russian state that's less stable, even more ideologically extreme and now dedicated to avenging the slight it feels the west inflicted upon it (regardless of the fact that it was self-inflicted).

This regime would feel further even incentive to behave in the same paranoid manner the Russian state has traditionally behaved in. This regime would likely lean further into the idea that they're a Christian state under persecution by the godless liberal west (as the wackos to the right of Putin already claim, like the father of the lady who was carbombed). This regime would almost certainly behave with a heavier hand towards any regions that might seek to separate.

Think of the difference between the current Iranian or Saudi regime, and ISIS, only with an arsenal of ICBMs.
Think of the difference between the most conservative and pragmatic members of the NSDAP vs. the ones who were obsessed with mysticism, UFOs and pseudo-pagan rituals, only with an arsenal of ICBMs.

There's a good chance that whatever replaces Putin's regime will be a less rational actor.
They're all s**t sandwiches until you realize some of the s**t sandwiches also carry rabies.

Evil and stable is less dangerous than evil and batshit insane.

goldfish21 wrote:
I mean, maybe, but then they can just revolution again and again until they figure something better out.


It's not that easy, there's enormous human and other costs associated with that, if that's seriously something you view as a solution. Maybe from where your sitting those costs won't be felt, but that doesn't mean those costs won't be felt by a lot of innocent people, many of them outside of Russia.

The collapse of the Russian state, along with the disruptions to food, fertilizer and energy exports it would cause would be catastrophic to the world's economy. It would likely trigger a refugee crisis in Europe (from Russians fleeing) and it would likely trigger ethnic conflicts in Siberia and other regions that Russia stole and filled with colonists.

It might not be your problem, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a massive problem.

In a lot of ways Russia as a society behaves like a person who's experienced repeated overwhelming trauma (given that they have). If that analogy also works literally, it's understandable why certain coping mechanisms (both on an individual and on a collective level) end up so deformed. It doesn't mean the rest of the world has to tolerate antisocial actions their state undertakes, but it does mean it's likely that curbstomping Russia and repeatedly causing them to feel humiliated is unlikely to benefit anyone, not us, not Russia, not Russians and not ethnic minorities within Russia.

If that's the case we shouldn't do it, at least if we have any moral authority.


Probably one of your best posts funeralxempire. I agree.


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goldfish21
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24 Sep 2022, 4:07 pm

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good image hosting


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naturalplastic
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24 Sep 2022, 4:57 pm

KitLily wrote:
Worthless wrote:
KitLily wrote:
It was 1642-1651, about 370 years ago, which is the early modern period of history in Britain. We have a looooong history. It was also very bloody, the worst battles in English history of course, because all deaths were English people on both sides.

We have long memories, we are still annoyed with the French for invading us in 1066! :lol:

The good thing is that the English Civil War is when our government set up serious gun controls. They noticed people were wandering around with Civil War weapons randomly killing people, so they made it illegal to carry guns. That is the legacy from the Civil War and probably what's stopping Brits shooting each other now days.



I would have thought that the limitations on the crown and the establishment of the power of parliament were been the main benefit...


It is possible to have more than one benefit from the Civil War.


I heard that there already were lots of controls on the king prior to the English civil war. And that that was one of the reasons Oliver Cromwell refused to be crowned king, and opted to become...England's only dictator...because if he had been crowned king he wouldve LOST power.



funeralxempire
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24 Sep 2022, 5:37 pm

goldfish21 wrote:


It's disappointing that this is all you've got.


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goldfish21
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24 Sep 2022, 11:23 pm

Most memes I see these days are either inappropriate to post or trump related. This was the best fresh russia/Ukraine meme I spotted in a while.

It does speak tho.. a bunch of pro war ppl months ago, but now none of them want to go to war.

I suppose it’s possible they’ve realized they were duped months ago.


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24 Sep 2022, 11:26 pm

As for revolution, I dunno.. Russians might be ready for a little shakeup and be willing to make a few sacrifices along the way to get rid of their current system of government and maybe implement actual democracy or something.

Or maybe the group, whatever they’re called, that Really run the show over there will get rid of putin and install someone else and carry on, only a little less crazily.


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funeralxempire
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24 Sep 2022, 11:49 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Most memes I see these days are either inappropriate to post or trump related. This was the best fresh russia/Ukraine meme I spotted in a while.

It does speak tho.. a bunch of pro war ppl months ago, but now none of them want to go to war.

I suppose it’s possible they’ve realized they were duped months ago.


It's dumb given the context you're using it in. You're not using it to criticize formerly pro-war Russians when you use it in this thread, so it just seems like an attack on people who haven't dehumanized the Russian people adequately and who support a peaceful resolution.

The endless dehumanizing of Russians by many supporters of Ukraine isn't a good look and only feeds the paranoia about the west and it's motives; and I say that as someone who feels Ukraine is fully entitled to strike whatever Russian assets they see fit in order to ensure all territory is returned. You don't need to dehumanize a foe in order to defeat them, and not doing so makes it easier to pursue healthier relations later.

goldfish21 wrote:
As for revolution, I dunno.. Russians might be ready for a little shakeup and be willing to make a few sacrifices along the way to get rid of their current system of government and maybe implement actual democracy or something.

Or maybe the group, whatever they’re called, that Really run the show over there will get rid of putin and install someone else and carry on, only a little less crazily.


Neither of those are likely or realistic outcomes though, that's the problem. Ukraine so-far defeating Russia is a rare example of things unfolding better than most people anticipated. Hope isn't enough to make things turn out favourably.

We can hope Russia cures themselves of a number of multi generational issues overnight, but how likely is that?
No, those issues aren't our problem but aggravating them doesn't benefit us. If we want healthy relations, we need to ensure room for them to develop exists. If that's not what we want, we should stop pretending like it's a possibility and just admit it.


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