01 Mar 2022, 8:57 am
01 Mar 2022, 9:02 am
01 Mar 2022, 9:50 am
01 Mar 2022, 10:34 am
01 Mar 2022, 10:51 am
Pepe wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Trump wanted the US to be an isolationist state. His goal was to "free" them from all alliances like NATO.
Kraichgauer said the same thing.
Do you have any links on that?
I'm not them, but out of curiosity just found this from 2017,
https://www.washingtonpost.com/postever ... lationism/
Quit calling Donald Trump an isolationist. He’s worse than that.
What Trump really believes is far more dangerous.
By Stephen Wertheim
Stephen Wertheim is senior fellow in the American Statecraft Program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. He is the author of “Tomorrow, the World: The Birth of U.S. Global Supremacy.”
February 17, 2017
Quote:
Under President Trump, American foreign policy is returning, many commentators say, to the isolationism that preceded World War II. This line of interpretation (and often attack) emerged during the election: While Hillary Clinton warned that her opponent would “tear up our alliances,” an array of experts supplied such fears with a historical pedigree. As Council on Foreign Relations President Richard Haass put it, Trump stood for a “new isolationism,” a revival of the 1930s dream of “turning away from global engagement.”
And these from 2020,
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 726323001/
Trump's dangerous isolationism weakens USA and strengthens our adversaries: Retired generals
Republicans have tragically failed to check Trump's reckless behavior. The election must be a mandate and a denunciation of him and of their silence.
Michael R. Lehnert and Richard L. Kelly
Opinion contributors
https://theprint.in/pageturner/excerpt/ ... on/539512/
Trump didn’t make America isolationist. It dates back to George Washington
In ‘Isolationism’, Charles A. Kupchan traces the US history of shielding itself from the world. And it’s not a tradition that started with Trump.
Charles A. Kupchan
8 November, 2020 10:33 am IST
From 2016,
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-fr ... the-world/
Donald Trump wants America to withdraw from the world
Thomas Wright Thursday, March 24, 2016
Quote:
... A Trump administration would pose the greatest shock to international peace and stability since the 1930s. This is not because Mr. Trump would invade other countries but because he would unilaterally liquidate the liberal international order that presidents have built and defended since Franklin Delano Roosevelt. If the word “isolationist” has any meaning, he qualifies as one. ...
And then a contrary opinion from 2019,Wrong: Trump Is Not an Isolationist
Despite the accusations from Trump’s critics, Washington remains as hawkish and interventionist as ever.
June 23, 2019 • Commentary
By Ted Galen Carpenter
Quote:
... Second, the notion that Trump’s foreign policy has been a dramatic departure from those of his predecessors since World War II is a myth. That is especially true regarding security issues. Although the president’s rhetoric toward Washington’s longtime allies has sometimes been abrasive and less collegial, his actions have differed little from the post–World War II norm. There certainly is no credible evidence that he is orchestrating a withdrawal from Washington’s multitude of global security commitments and initiatives.
Indeed, allegations of a retreat into isolationism are especially bizarre as America seems poised on the brink of war with Iran. And those making the “abandonment of global leadership,” “retreat from responsibility” and “embrace of isolationism” arguments have considerable difficulty citing concrete Trump administration actions that correspond to those cliches. Where, exactly, have such examples taken place?
Indeed, allegations of a retreat into isolationism are especially bizarre as America seems poised on the brink of war with Iran. And those making the “abandonment of global leadership,” “retreat from responsibility” and “embrace of isolationism” arguments have considerable difficulty citing concrete Trump administration actions that correspond to those cliches. Where, exactly, have such examples taken place?
Later in above article Ukraine is mentioned,
Quote:
Such evidence also is lacking with respect to Washington’s relations with the North Atlantic Treaty Organization countries. During the 2016 campaign, Trump did call NATO “obsolete,” and he raised doubts about whether he embraced the North Atlantic Treaty’s Article 5 commitment that an attack on one member would be treated as an attack on all. But once in office, he and his associates quickly reversed course. Trump’s annoyance with the allies now is largely confined to traditional burden‐sharing complaints.
Meanwhile, other U.S. actions indicate that Washington’s security policy in Europe is as active as ever. Contrary to the myth Trump’s domestic critics foster that he is willing to “do Putin’s bidding,” administration actions point unmistakably to the opposite conclusion.
Washington has supported expanding rather than contracting NATO, backing Montenegro and Macedonia as new members. U.S. forces have joined in an accelerating number of NATO military exercises in Eastern Europe and the Black Sea. Additionally, the Trump administration is now in negotiations to build a permanent base in Poland. Moreover, contrary to assertions that Trump seeks to appease Russia, the United States has been training Ukrainian troops and has concluded not one, but two, arms sales to Kyiv. That is curious behavior for an administration determined to conduct a policy of retreat from Europe.
Meanwhile, other U.S. actions indicate that Washington’s security policy in Europe is as active as ever. Contrary to the myth Trump’s domestic critics foster that he is willing to “do Putin’s bidding,” administration actions point unmistakably to the opposite conclusion.
Washington has supported expanding rather than contracting NATO, backing Montenegro and Macedonia as new members. U.S. forces have joined in an accelerating number of NATO military exercises in Eastern Europe and the Black Sea. Additionally, the Trump administration is now in negotiations to build a permanent base in Poland. Moreover, contrary to assertions that Trump seeks to appease Russia, the United States has been training Ukrainian troops and has concluded not one, but two, arms sales to Kyiv. That is curious behavior for an administration determined to conduct a policy of retreat from Europe.
goldfish21
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Joined: 17 Feb 2013
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,612
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
01 Mar 2022, 10:55 am
magz wrote:
Well, within NATO, Poland always tried to be active because we've been living too close to Putin and watched his dirty games from too small a distance... but even we didn't expect this.
Hindsight’s 20/20. As crazy as it all is, it does make sense that it’s happening.
Putin spent a decade or two focusing on destabilizing the USA from within via disinformation and then helping trump get elected & feeding the partisan politics machine to divide and weaken America so they’re not as much of a threat.
He’s also getting older. Can’t expect him to wait forever to make his batshit crazy moves in an attempt at expanding Russia/European or world domination.
He’s been plotting this for quite some time - while telling the world he isn’t up to anything so mind your own business.
It does make me wonder if trump’s been such a cheerleader because Putin linked Russian mafia/oligarchs are responsible for propping up his real estate businesses via loans and investments. Apparent trump’s property in the Bahamas was basically just a Russian mob money laundering machine.
_________________
No
for supporting trump. Because doing so is deplorable.goldfish21
Veteran
Joined: 17 Feb 2013
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,612
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
01 Mar 2022, 10:59 am
magz wrote:
Well, within NATO, Poland always tried to be active because we've been living too close to Putin and watched his dirty games from too small a distance... but even we didn't expect this.
My work has two different contracted partners in Poland (among other countries - Greece, New Zealand, USA, Lebanon). Obviously we hope everyone stays safe, whether Covid or war, but ya definitely some concern for their safety - especially since they’re pretty much irreplaceable tech talent for what they specialize in. Not sure where one of them is located, but the other is apparently only 180km from Ukraine. Hopefully that’s enough distance to be very safe - but in reality that’s only a couple hour drive away.
_________________
No
for supporting trump. Because doing so is deplorable.
01 Mar 2022, 12:59 pm
01 Mar 2022, 1:45 pm
goldfish21
Veteran
Joined: 17 Feb 2013
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,612
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
01 Mar 2022, 4:22 pm
magz wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
magz wrote:
Well, within NATO, Poland always tried to be active because we've been living too close to Putin and watched his dirty games from too small a distance... but even we didn't expect this.
My work has two different contracted partners in Poland (among other countries - Greece, New Zealand, USA, Lebanon). Obviously we hope everyone stays safe, whether Covid or war, but ya definitely some concern for their safety - especially since they’re pretty much irreplaceable tech talent for what they specialize in. Not sure where one of them is located, but the other is apparently only 180km from Ukraine. Hopefully that’s enough distance to be very safe - but in reality that’s only a couple hour drive away.
He seems to be doing very well all things considered. He was online live chatting with our CEO just a couple hours ago and has been quite active over the last week getting a bunch of files onto an automation server for us.
One of the guys here mentioned that he hasn’t replied to his messages - I’ll make sure to tell our in house guy to be patient with the Polish guy(s) for sure.
_________________
No
for supporting trump. Because doing so is deplorable.01 Mar 2022, 5:03 pm
kraftiekortie wrote:
I never disagreed when Trump stated that some of the other members of NATO should "pull their own weight."
It is on the record that Trump has referred to NATO as being "obsolete."
Former aides have stated that he would propose pulling the US out of NATO if it there weren't reforms to it that were to his liking.
I believe, in part, that Trump's statements as to NATO's "obsoleteness" emboldened Putin.
It is on the record that Trump has referred to NATO as being "obsolete."
Former aides have stated that he would propose pulling the US out of NATO if it there weren't reforms to it that were to his liking.
I believe, in part, that Trump's statements as to NATO's "obsoleteness" emboldened Putin.
Have you considered that this sort of rhetoric was designed to make NATO pull its finger out of its arse?
Orange man is now taking credit for Germany raising its war contribution to 2%.
Bloody well time it did, now that the turtle is out of the picture.
Sorry, you haven't convinced me.
I'm still waiting for Kraichgauer's response.
01 Mar 2022, 5:10 pm
kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
But once in office, he and his associates quickly reversed course. Trump’s annoyance with the allies now is largely confined to traditional burden‐sharing complaints.
As I have stated above.
Pepe for the win.
01 Mar 2022, 5:28 pm
01 Mar 2022, 5:56 pm
01 Mar 2022, 5:59 pm
01 Mar 2022, 8:58 pm
While those are merely a few plastic model airplane kits in the other room the real live human people who made them are very much in my heart.
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