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Pepe
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17 Mar 2022, 12:53 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
Lost_dragon wrote:
Quote:
The bill's supporters say it strengthens parental rights by preventing teachers and school staffers from withholding information about gender issues from parents. (An earlier version of the bill went even further, requiring principals to tell parents if a student came out as other than straight. That provision was pulled last month.)


8O Well, I'm certainly glad that provision was pulled, because that is horrifying. Not everyone is fortunate enough to come from an accepting home and to out a student against their will to a family that could potentially throw them out of their house is awful.


If they've been proposing things like that then let's not pretend that any part of this bill is apolitical or about keeping politics out of the classroom. The bill is very political and very much about forcing a certain brand of politics into the classroom.


That is your opinion.
Now, give us some facts.


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Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


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17 Mar 2022, 1:11 am

Here's a great example of the dangers of the kind of parenting republican governers think is perfectly ok. After you watch the video ask yourself, where could the mindset of this kid's classmates come from? Actually, there is part of that answer at the 4:12 mark.


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goldfish21
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17 Mar 2022, 12:49 pm

Pepe wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Lost_dragon wrote:
Quote:
The bill's supporters say it strengthens parental rights by preventing teachers and school staffers from withholding information about gender issues from parents. (An earlier version of the bill went even further, requiring principals to tell parents if a student came out as other than straight. That provision was pulled last month.)


8O Well, I'm certainly glad that provision was pulled, because that is horrifying. Not everyone is fortunate enough to come from an accepting home and to out a student against their will to a family that could potentially throw them out of their house is awful.


If they've been proposing things like that then let's not pretend that any part of this bill is apolitical or about keeping politics out of the classroom. The bill is very political and very much about forcing a certain brand of politics into the classroom.


That is your opinion.
Now, give us some facts.


wtf? :?

When members of one political party and their followers push for particular rule/law changes, the issue is by very definition political by default. Facts.


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Pepe
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17 Mar 2022, 7:00 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Lost_dragon wrote:
Quote:
The bill's supporters say it strengthens parental rights by preventing teachers and school staffers from withholding information about gender issues from parents. (An earlier version of the bill went even further, requiring principals to tell parents if a student came out as other than straight. That provision was pulled last month.)


8O Well, I'm certainly glad that provision was pulled, because that is horrifying. Not everyone is fortunate enough to come from an accepting home and to out a student against their will to a family that could potentially throw them out of their house is awful.


If they've been proposing things like that then let's not pretend that any part of this bill is apolitical or about keeping politics out of the classroom. The bill is very political and very much about forcing a certain brand of politics into the classroom.


That is your opinion.
Now, give us some facts.


wtf? :?

When members of one political party and their followers push for particular rule/law changes, the issue is by very definition political by default. Facts.


Very binary/B&W of you.
Now give us some *real* facts. 8)


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Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


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17 Mar 2022, 7:30 pm

CubsBullsBears wrote:
I get that the bill doesn't have the word "gay" in it, but it DOES say things about "not allowing LGBT discussion in classroom" and leaving that entierly up to parents, including the socially conservative ones who have beliefs that lead to them shaming their kids for their sexuality and what not. Either that or they influence their kids to think in delusional, bigoted ways, which will leave the country with just as many of those types of people as we do now. And being a young LGBT individual will continue to be a challenge, especially if their parents are the type to shame them for that.

And yes, again, in Florida LGBT discussion may be allowed in grades 4-12, but there's other states that might wanna go further than that. It certainly is bad enough that we have governers in this country who pander to parents who wanna indoctrinate their kids into their religion and all that's bad about it.


Define pander? Would you accept a law that forbade a parent from teaching religion to their children? The parents have a right to raise their children as they deem correct even if you don't agree with it, as long as it is not abusive or illegal.



CubsBullsBears
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17 Mar 2022, 8:07 pm

txfz1 wrote:
Define pander? Would you accept a law that forbade a parent from teaching religion to their children?
to be brutally honest, I would accept a law that would ban parents from indoctrinating children into religion that is harmful for reasons that I’ve already explained.

If the Bible taught people to kill themselves on their 40th birthday, they would do that too.


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CubsBullsBears
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17 Mar 2022, 8:26 pm

txfz1 wrote:
The parents have a right to raise their children as they deem correct even if you don't agree with it
here’s what that basically translates to: “I support the right of homophobic parents to teach their kids to be anti-LGBT or to get their LGBT kids to think that who they are is wrong”

The former will allow for homophobia to continue to be commonplace in this country for generations to come, the latter will lead to depression and in some cases, suicide.


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Pepe
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18 Mar 2022, 1:23 am

txfz1 wrote:
CubsBullsBears wrote:
I get that the bill doesn't have the word "gay" in it, but it DOES say things about "not allowing LGBT discussion in classroom" and leaving that entierly up to parents, including the socially conservative ones who have beliefs that lead to them shaming their kids for their sexuality and what not. Either that or they influence their kids to think in delusional, bigoted ways, which will leave the country with just as many of those types of people as we do now. And being a young LGBT individual will continue to be a challenge, especially if their parents are the type to shame them for that.

And yes, again, in Florida LGBT discussion may be allowed in grades 4-12, but there's other states that might wanna go further than that. It certainly is bad enough that we have governers in this country who pander to parents who wanna indoctrinate their kids into their religion and all that's bad about it.


Define pander? Would you accept a law that forbade a parent from teaching religion to their children? The parents have a right to raise their children as they deem correct even if you don't agree with it, as long as it is not abusive or illegal.


As I have mentioned before, there are parents who use the Bible to instil morality in their children when they are too young to reason in depth themselves.
Those parents wouldn't want an activist atheist teacher sabotaging their efforts.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


cyberdad
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18 Mar 2022, 2:56 am

Tennis champ Coco Gauff sharing her views on Florida's laws
https://au.sports.yahoo.com/tennis-coco ... 26964.html



aghogday
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18 Mar 2022, 11:09 am



Yawn, Whatever Happened to 'Separation of Church And State';

(Clue: Politics, and Religion, and Culture, All Wear Similar Clothes
of Tradition that Excludes Those Who Are Different From What
Bonds and Binds Folks With Common Symbols and Ideologies)

Okay, Now That We've Got that Basic Definition Out of the Way,
The Video Below Provides Some Schooling that Shows Being Gay

Is No Less Natural Than Being Black As that is Just A Difference
of Natural Evolution in Adaptation to the Environment at Hand;

Listen, 'OP', This Shouldn't Be Too Hard to Follow, If It Gets More
Complex, Please Just Watch the Video And Get Educated, Okay...

Clue, In Terms of Nature, It Ain't About Sex, It's About Survival;

Just Like Being Protected By More Melanin In Harsh Environments;

'Strangely' Enough, With Pale Green to Blue Eyes, Changing Still;

Fortunately, i Have Nigerian Ancestral Ingredients From the 1800's
Or So And South Asian too, Apparently on the "Darker Side" Of my
Grandmother's Cajun Family, Paternally So, Much to the Chagrin of

(23 And
me Says
So Hehe)

Her Half
Jewish Bred
(My Rich Half-Uncle)
Son True my

(Prejudiced As
Hell Against
Blacks and Gays)

Grandfather Was
Born In Limerick

Ireland,

An X-Catholic
Priest; And Then
An Immigrant to 'The Vatican' As Counsel
For the Pope; South Africa; Gainesville, Florida;
And Finally, God Yes, 'Backwoods,' North Florida
Where i Originally Came from too; Of Course Yes,
His Father Immigrated From the Black Forest of
Germany, Diamond Watch Makers, still From my Sir Name Now...

Wow, Variances in Human Nature Do Happen; Wow, Science
Shows Transgender And Homosexuality Is Part of Evolving Human

Nature, According to Environmental Challenges in the Womb Still
Now; Namely Stress in the Environment Similar to BRIGHT, BRIGHT SUN...

(That Rich Gay Uncle Or Aunt May Provide Socio-Economic-Emotional Support
To the Rest of the Family; And Once Again, Elton John Has Helped Sire More
Children From His Romantic Songs Than Visible Stars in the Sky When Otherwise

Romantic Nights

Just Turn out
to Be Impotent Duds
Or Dudes; Whatever Doesn't Work...)

That Results
in Melanin
Darker Than
Some Other Folks
Born in Ireland And
Germany Who Don't Have my
South Asian And Nigerian Advantage Roots to Tan

With Pale to Green Eyes, So Very Well Now True Still too...

The Point Here Again Is Gay, and Transgender, And African
American, And Asian Are All Part of Nature; And Excluding the

Reality That Some Folks Are Naturally Non-Binary/Transgender And Homosexual
From Early Grade Teaching, in of Course Age Appropriate Ways As the Video Below

Could Even Do A Pretty Damned Good Job Appropriately So

In A Way That Was More

Empathic/Human And Not So Frigging

'Backwoods' Now and Still So Ignorant Is

No Different Than Before, When African American Folks Weren't Considered Human...

Understand THiS; NO ONE Deserves to Be Excluded From Humanity ThiS Way;

THere Are No 'REAL CHURCH Morals' Here, Only Ignorance When it Comes
to Excluding

Humans

From our
Species This
Way; Good News,
Again, Young Folks
'These Days' Walked Out of the
Schools In Support of Their Peers

As Yes, They Don't Just Go To Church
Any More To View Only A God That Doesn't Include

Gays and

Their

Natural
Behavior as Well
As Well Suited to
The Environment at
Hand YES, What it takes
for a Species to Survive over
the Long Run, No Matter How Ignorant
Politics, Religion, And Culture Comes to Lie Differently...

Yes, We Live in a Representative Democracy; If 'We the
People' Wanna Be Ignorant, We Will All Have the Life We Vote For Next...

Fortunately,

Not Everyone

Still Lives in the 'Backwoods' Now...

True, 'They' Have Their Place too; Just Don't
Tread on my, Or my Family's Freedoms, or i Will
Disagree too...

And Vote
Differently
of Course

For A Brighter
Future Without
So Much Damned Blind Ignorance Still...

Yawn, The Really Good News is, Anyone
On YouTube, No Matter What Their Age
Or Lot in Life is, Gets to Get 'Edumucated' With The Video Below too... AND SO MUCH MORE;

Church Can't Stop It; And Let's Face it, Parents, Most of them, Aren't Likely Even Paying Attention...

Things Change;

It's Reality, Get Used to It...

Or Not; Hell, Be An 'Ostrich'
And Try to Cover Everyone's Head in the Sand...

Clue:

It Won't Work
Anymore, in the long
Term at Least; Freedom's
Winds Have Come to Free...

Be 'The Wind';

It's What i Do,
And 'It' Reliably Works...

Thanks to SO MANY Others Preparing
All These Free Avenues ALong All Paths
of Freedom's (REAL Nature GOD) Wind...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Khn_z9FPmU



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18 Mar 2022, 2:12 pm

Pepe wrote:
It is all about "Parental Rights in Education".
I don't have a problem with that.

Don't be fooled by the "Don’t say gay" title that the hard left has created.
They have politicised the issue to their advantage.

They want you to think it's about "parental rights", they want you to think that people who are against the bill are "child groomers".

Even the man who is directly behind the bill admitted that he's worried that so many children are coming out as trans because they are "learning about it in school".
He flat out admitted, not using code words, but in plain English, that he believes that if he can stop children from learning about sexuality/gender identity in school, that it will stop children from "becoming" anything other than cis-gendered heterosexuals.
Previous drafts of the bill were even specifically worded that "DISCUSSION" of these issues was to be banned, but was later changed to "instruction".

It is a flat out political measure to try to silence LGBTQ+ children. No "if"s "and"s or "but"s.


The bill is only seven pages long, large text, it's very vague, it doesn't take long to read: https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2 ... ext/er/PDF

The main problem I have with calling it "don't say gay" is that people are too focused on the word "gay", which understates that the bill is silencing EVERYONE in the LGBTQ+ spectrum, especially transgender.

Two main problems with the bill:

#1, a lot of it is INCREDIBLY vague. There is no single way to interpret anything it says. Any teacher or principal could twist it to mean whatever they think it should mean, and it will be up to a judge to decide:

Quote:
3. Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards.

So tell me, what is the appropriate age or development for a Florida student to acknowledge the existence of boys who have crushes on other boys, or girls who like to wear boy clothes, or children who have more than one mom and/or dad?
Is it okay for these children to get bullied, and the staff to do nothing because their hands are tied?

Look at it from the opposite angle, even talking about boys liking girls, or girls identifying as female, would be prohibited.

#2, this bill is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Are teachers in Florida causing a problem by shoving perverted sexual content down the throats of third graders? Or is it about parents who are worried that they're getting these "sick" and "crazy" ideas from their teachers and peers?

Why would they even need to specifically mention "gender identity" if they were sincerely worried about perverted teachers? What does the one have to do with the other??

There is other vagueness about staff being required to notify parents if the child has questions about mental health concerns, which, while could possibly be well-meaning, can certainly be twisted in its vagueness.


Actually, I was wrong...I just noticed lines 21-22 still say "discussion":
Quote:
prohibiting classroom discussion about sexual orientation or gender identity in certain grade levels or in a specified manner



Not to mention Disney's CEO donating hundreds of thousands of dollars that went towards this bill is a huge slap in the face to Disney's employees (who were already complaining about LGBTQ+ censorship/cancellation), and his refusal to do anything about it was an even bigger slap.

His eventual "I'll talk to DeSantis about it" after the bill had already passed the Senate doesn't sound very heartfelt.


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18 Mar 2022, 2:29 pm

CubsBullsBears wrote:
txfz1 wrote:
Define pander? Would you accept a law that forbade a parent from teaching religion to their children?
to be brutally honest, I would accept a law that would ban parents from indoctrinating children into religion that is harmful for reasons that I’ve already explained.

If the Bible taught people to kill themselves on their 40th birthday, they would do that too.


Do you see the hypocrisy as you want to use the gov't gun to force parents to your viewpoint? Parents have a right to raise their children, the schools do not have the same rights.



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18 Mar 2022, 2:48 pm

txfz1 wrote:
CubsBullsBears wrote:
txfz1 wrote:
Define pander? Would you accept a law that forbade a parent from teaching religion to their children?
to be brutally honest, I would accept a law that would ban parents from indoctrinating children into religion that is harmful for reasons that I’ve already explained.

If the Bible taught people to kill themselves on their 40th birthday, they would do that too.


Do you see the hypocrisy as you want to use the gov't gun to force parents to your viewpoint? Parents have a right to raise their children, the schools do not have the same rights.


Do a lot of guy people think the word gay is offensive? I know two gay people who said they use the word all the time, and they hate how people think it's offensive they said.



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18 Mar 2022, 2:57 pm

Depends on the context. Sometimes, it can be offensive; other times, it is not.

Something like the "N" word is almost always offensive.



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18 Mar 2022, 11:51 pm

SabbraCadabra wrote:
Pepe wrote:
It is all about "Parental Rights in Education".
I don't have a problem with that.

Don't be fooled by the "Don’t say gay" title that the hard left has created.
They have politicised the issue to their advantage.

They want you to think it's about "parental rights", they want you to think that people who are against the bill are "child groomers".

Even the man who is directly behind the bill admitted that he's worried that so many children are coming out as trans because they are "learning about it in school".


Do you have a link?

SabbraCadabra wrote:
He flat out admitted, not using code words, but in plain English, that he believes that if he can stop children from learning about sexuality/gender identity in school, that it will stop children from "becoming" anything other than cis-gendered heterosexuals.


This is simply ignorant.
"God" made the LGBT, also, didn't he/she? :mrgreen:
Do you have a link where he says this?

SabbraCadabra wrote:
Previous drafts of the bill were even specifically worded that "DISCUSSION" of these issues was to be banned, but was later changed to "instruction".


Remember, it is children of ages 4 to 10 the bill is referring to.
Is it really appropriate to discuss or instruct children that young about sexual diversity?

SabbraCadabra wrote:
It is a flat out political measure to try to silence LGBTQ+ children. No "if"s "and"s or "but"s.


I am sure you feel that way.


SabbraCadabra wrote:
The bill is only seven pages long, large text, it's very vague, it doesn't take long to read: https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2 ... ext/er/PDF


Thanks for the link.

SabbraCadabra wrote:
The main problem I have with calling it "don't say gay" is that people are too focused on the word "gay", which understates that the bill is silencing EVERYONE in the LGBTQ+ spectrum, especially transgender.

Two main problems with the bill:

#1, a lot of it is INCREDIBLY vague. There is no single way to interpret anything it says. Any teacher or principal could twist it to mean whatever they think it should mean, and it will be up to a judge to decide:

Quote:
3. Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards.

So tell me, what is the appropriate age or development for a Florida student to acknowledge the existence of boys who have crushes on other boys, or girls who like to wear boy clothes, or children who have more than one mom and/or dad?
Is it okay for these children to get bullied, and the staff to do nothing because their hands are tied?


I don't think children before puberty have a realistic idea of what their sexuality is.
How could they if they don't experience sexual feelings?

SabbraCadabra wrote:
Look at it from the opposite angle, even talking about boys liking girls, or girls identifying as female, would be prohibited.


But the bill talks about "instruction/discussion" by the teacher.
There is a difference between a question from a child coming up and the teacher introducing the concept to the child.
The bill is against activist teachers.

SabbraCadabra wrote:
#2, this bill is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Are teachers in Florida causing a problem by shoving perverted sexual content down the throats of third graders? Or is it about parents who are worried that they're getting these "sick" and "crazy" ideas from their teachers and peers?


Firstly, there are activist teachers out there.
Have a look at my link: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=404668&p=9000790#p9000395
Secondly, if no one is doing this, I.E. The problem doesn't exist, why the concern?

SabbraCadabra wrote:
Why would they even need to specifically mention "gender identity" if they were sincerely worried about perverted teachers? What does the one have to do with the other??


Well, I haven't seen where DeSantis says this so I can't really comment.

SabbraCadabra wrote:
There is other vagueness about staff being required to notify parents if the child has questions about mental health concerns, which, while could possibly be well-meaning, can certainly be twisted in its vagueness.


Personally speaking, I don't have a problem with parents being referred to.
It is their child after all.


SabbraCadabra wrote:
Actually, I was wrong...I just noticed lines 21-22 still say "discussion":
Quote:
prohibiting classroom discussion about sexual orientation or gender identity in certain grade levels or in a specified manner



Not to mention Disney's CEO donating hundreds of thousands of dollars that went towards this bill is a huge slap in the face to Disney's employees (who were already complaining about LGBTQ+ censorship/cancellation), and his refusal to do anything about it was an even bigger slap.

His eventual "I'll talk to DeSantis about it" after the bill had already passed the Senate doesn't sound very heartfelt.


Are you sure about this?
I was under the impression Disney stopped donations.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


Pepe
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18 Mar 2022, 11:54 pm

txfz1 wrote:
CubsBullsBears wrote:
txfz1 wrote:
Define pander? Would you accept a law that forbade a parent from teaching religion to their children?
to be brutally honest, I would accept a law that would ban parents from indoctrinating children into religion that is harmful for reasons that I’ve already explained.

If the Bible taught people to kill themselves on their 40th birthday, they would do that too.


Do you see the hypocrisy as you want to use the gov't gun to force parents to your viewpoint? Parents have a right to raise their children, the schools do not have the same rights.


All things being equal and "proper", I agree.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.