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Florida’s “Don’t say gay” law

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Pepe
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14 Mar 2022, 8:59 pm

QFT wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Indeed, instructors should present ideas dispassionately.

However, I don't believe "intelligent design," say, should be taught alongside "evolution." There is overwhelming evidence for "evolution"---but "intelligent design" is based on religious faith.


Some people might disagree with this statement.

--- Intelligence design is based on "common sense" argument that biological systems couldn't just compile together by accident.

--- Evolution is based on "common sense" conclusion one obtains by looking at archaeology

So if you look at it this way it is a bit of a paradox. Similar to quantum mechanics and gravity both of which are supported by strong evidence yet seemingly contradicting each other.

And besides, like mentioned: no matter how strongly the teacher believes in something, if a large portion of population disagrees then its no longer a fact.

I think creation and evolution should be taught side by side, both presented as "just a theory".

I see your point that you shouldn't indoctrinate kids. What if their parents are of a different religion or atheists? The way around it is something along the following lines. Sometimes in history class they teach the conflict between Luther and Catholic church and tell students what each side believed. The teachers is not indoctrinating students while they do that, because they are not telling students that those things are true, they are just saying those are the things some historical figures believed. With creation and evolution it can be something along those lines, except that "historic figures" are the current rather than the past.


I think you need to define the age group you are talking about.
There is cross purposing happening here, imo.



Pepe
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14 Mar 2022, 9:09 pm

QFT wrote:
Pepe wrote:
QFT wrote:
If they want to teach politics, then the only "undeniable truth" about politics would be that there are multiple schools of thoughts. So then they can go ahead and teach "this school of thought says this, that other school of thought says that other thing". That's neutral. But they can't take their own stance.


Children in kindergarten "should" focus on the 3R's rather than the existence of political philosophies, imo.
The suggestion here in Australia, by some, is that the politicisation of the skooling system is responsible for the very poor academic performance.
Australia has gone down the tube in recent decades.


Yeah, that is a valid point too.

I was just saying how they would have to do it *IF* they were to include politics. But *whether or not* to include it is yet another topic.

I tend to see it both ways. On the one hand I don't think its a good idea when education is limitted to A, B and C and nothing outside of it. The more people know the better. But on the other hand I also see how politics can disract people. Its one thing to expand on mathematics or science outside of curriculum, and its quite another thing to get disracted by politics.


My focus on discussion is around DeSantis's "inappropriate curriculum" bill for very young children.
You may have noticed I keep on returning to this. ;)

I'm not a B&W person (Don't let my avatar fool you ;)), but I basically think there are subjects that parents should handle rather than teachers when the children are very young.



cyberdad
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15 Mar 2022, 1:42 am

Pepe wrote:
I have seen some shocking examples of teacher activists attempting to brainwash impressionable children.
Presumably, you haven't..


Ironically I went to school in the 1970s and many of my teachers were racist and the opposite of woke mysoginists, homophobic, alcoholic, chain smokers, predatory and bullies.

Things have improved now due to teacher training.



Pepe
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15 Mar 2022, 1:54 am

cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
I have seen some shocking examples of teacher activists attempting to brainwash impressionable children.
Presumably, you haven't..


Ironically I went to school in the 1970s and many of my teachers were racist and the opposite of woke mysoginists, homophobic, alcoholic, chain smokers, predatory and bullies.

Things have improved now due to teacher training.


I was psychologically abused by a teacher when I was 4.
It changed my life forever.
This may explain, in part, my realistic opinion that you can't automatically trust them. 8)



cyberdad
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15 Mar 2022, 3:44 am

Pepe wrote:
I was psychologically abused by a teacher when I was 4.
)


That sucks. Yeah I got plenty of psychological abuse from nearly every primary school teacher I had. Some of the female teachers were the worst. The male teachers just liked to belt us.



kraftiekortie
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15 Mar 2022, 7:24 am

I had corporal punishment maybe once----but teachers didn't treat me that great, either.

I've never seen "indoctrination" happen in a Kindergarten classroom.

Kindergarten is more academic than it used to be----but, still, serious philosophical ideas are certainly not broached. Kids spend lots of time listening to non-political stories and cutting out items from magazines that start with a certain letter. And doing extremely elementary math and reading sheets.

Most of the teachers certainly aren't the type to "teach" the virtues of a gay lifestyle....



magz
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15 Mar 2022, 7:28 am

Is it "indoctrination" that kids learn the national anthem and have special classes around the Independence Day and Constitution Day?
Or that they make traditional palms for Palm Sunday?
Is it "indoctrination" or "inculturation"?
Where's the line?


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Pepe
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15 Mar 2022, 7:36 am

cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
I was psychologically abused by a teacher when I was 4.
)


That sucks. Yeah I got plenty of psychological abuse from nearly every primary school teacher I had. Some of the female teachers were the worst. The male teachers just liked to belt us.


I am convinced the biatch hated Germans.
I only spoke German at that time.



kraftiekortie
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15 Mar 2022, 7:39 am

Even in college, it was very rare for me to encounter a professor who was explicitly "political." Most colleges wouldn't hire someone who would be the type to preach the virtues of Communism in a biology class.

My wife once had a professor who really overdid it when it came to sociology. This professor believed in the abolition of prisons. He gave my wife a bad grade because she wrote something which did not reflect his opinion. This sort of professor should be sacked, fired, etc. There's no room for this sort of indoctrination within an academic setting. This was the only time either she or I encountered an explicitly "political" professor.



Pepe
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15 Mar 2022, 7:51 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I had corporal punishment maybe once----but teachers didn't treat me that great, either.

I've never seen "indoctrination" happen in a Kindergarten classroom.

Kindergarten is more academic than it used to be----but, still, serious philosophical ideas are certainly not broached. Kids spend lots of time listening to non-political stories and cutting out items from magazines that start with a certain letter. And doing extremely elementary math and reading sheets.

Most of the teachers certainly aren't the type to "teach" the virtues of a gay lifestyle....


You and I are close in age.
The sort of political indoctrination you see today in the skooling system didn't happen 60 years ago.



Pepe
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15 Mar 2022, 7:56 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Even in college, it was very rare for me to encounter a professor who was explicitly "political." Most colleges wouldn't hire someone who would be the type to preach the virtues of Communism in a biology class.

My wife once had a professor who really overdid it when it came to sociology. This professor believed in the abolition of prisons. He gave my wife a bad grade because she wrote something which did not reflect his opinion. This sort of professor should be sacked, fired, etc. There's no room for this sort of indoctrination within an academic setting. This was the only time either she or I encountered an explicitly "political" professor.


Unfortunately, this is quite common these days.
Most older students know that they have to present an assignment in a biased way to placate teachers/professors.
An absolute disgrace, but what can you do?



kraftiekortie
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15 Mar 2022, 8:00 am

As part of my practicum in speech pathology, I observed Kindergarten classrooms about 15 years ago.

I work in a college library right now.

There is certainly a "woke" mentality amongst some folks in colleges---both students and professors. But I have observed many classes for a short time, and I don't see "indoctrination." I see them teaching the subject at hand, without political leanings.



Pepe
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15 Mar 2022, 8:12 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
As part of my practicum in speech pathology, I observed Kindergarten classrooms about 15 years ago.

I work in a college library right now.

There is certainly a "woke" mentality amongst some folks in colleges---both students and professors. But I have observed many classes for a short time, and I don't see "indoctrination." I see them teaching the subject at hand, without political leanings.


But it does happen.
I have seen a number of examples of teacher political abuse through my reputable New sources.

I am not really into doing the hard yakka research these days, but I might have a look.

BTW, Isabella has some non-political horror stories about an abusive, or should I say sadistic teacher.
It was literally hair-raising.
I would call it "ritual abuse" as it was in my case.

Moral of the story: Don't trust the bastardos. ;)



txfz1
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15 Mar 2022, 8:17 am

Observing a class and turning in essays for grades are two different things. I went to college in the late 90's and had to write papers that meet the profs "political standards" to receive a decent grade. My lowest grade was a class where I expressed my experience which conflicted with the prof. I still graduated with honor despite him.



Pepe
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15 Mar 2022, 8:28 am

txfz1 wrote:
Observing a class and turning in essays for grades are two different things. I went to college in the late 90's and had to write papers that meet the profs "political standards" to receive a decent grade. My lowest grade was a class where I expressed my experience which conflicted with the prof. I still graduated with honor despite him.


KK, take note.
It happens more often than some people think.
A family member had a similar experience. ;)



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15 Mar 2022, 10:26 am

As a few others pointed out, I made a mistake on the opening post. The law says that LGBT discussion is only banned in kindergarden through third grade. Such discussion is allowed in other grades as long as it is "age appropriate or developmentally appropriate". Well, whatever that means.

Even with that, there's still issues. DeSantis has already declared that he’s ok with people being raised to have social values that are considered outdated for a reason.

And also, there are now other states with republican governors that want to do the same thing, according to this article:

https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/law- ... -gay-bill/


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